On Mon, 16 May 2011 12:17:14 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2011 23:05:20 -0700, wrote:

SS/Medicare would be broke, no matter what happened to the economy.
There simply are not enough workers coming onto the bottom of the
pyramid to support an 83 million person peak.

This is completely untrue. Neither is broke and this is just a right
wing talking point without merit.

That is just denial.
Any program that pays out more than it takes in is doomed to fail

No. You're wrong. Many programs "pay out" more than they take in for
some period of time and they do fine in the long run. You're the one
in denial.



You started out with 35 or 40 payers per retiree in 1935 and people
were only expected to collect for a couple of years if they lived that
long. Now we have 3 workers per retiree and they will collect for 18
years.
It is simply unsustainable. The whole concept of a trust fund is
fantasy, invented in 1939 to fund the build up for WWII.

what's also unsustainable is the massive increase in healthcare costs
we face, again, engineered by the 'free market' fundamentalism of the
right.
Health care cost is part of it but simply having 40 million medicare
recipients is unsustainable and that will double in a decade.

It's only unsustainable if no action is taken. Action is being
proposed and the situation will turn around. More fear mongering isn't
part of the solution.

Do you have a 1.5 trillion dollar idea to fix the deficit. That is
really what we are talking about here and it is not a long term
problem it is a problem today. Medicare/SS are just another part of
the deficit now since both are running in the red.

I suggested several ways to start. We DON'T NEED TO FIX THIS TOMORROW.
We need to get started... subsidies, military, tax rates. I know you
don't like it and would prefer to think all is lost and the sky is
falling. It isn't.


BTW did you see how Geithner is extending the debt ceiling? He is
taking money from the federal pension program. I am surprised nobody
is raising hell about that.

we have no choice but to extend the ceiling. our debt wouldnt be
serviceable if we didnt

The debt will be unserviceable when the interest rate doubles too and
that is far more than likely.

It is not "more likely." There's no credible evidence that interest
rates will be doubling any time soon.

More denial.
At this point we are only paying 0.3% on our short bonds. That is not
likely to continue very long. To think a fraction of a percent rate
hike is impossible it just lunacy. Right now investors are not even
covering the drop in the value of the dollar we pay them back with.

There is NO EVIDENCE of a dramatic increase in interest rates. Total
nonsense.

On Mon, 16 May 2011 14:19:26 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 10:33:01 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 12:17:14 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2011 23:05:20 -0700, wrote:

SS/Medicare would be broke, no matter what happened to the economy.
There simply are not enough workers coming onto the bottom of the
pyramid to support an 83 million person peak.

This is completely untrue. Neither is broke and this is just a right
wing talking point without merit.

That is just denial.
Any program that pays out more than it takes in is doomed to fail

No. You're wrong. Many programs "pay out" more than they take in for
some period of time and they do fine in the long run. You're the one
in denial.

Name one that is on this scale.

Social Security.



You started out with 35 or 40 payers per retiree in 1935 and people
were only expected to collect for a couple of years if they lived that
long. Now we have 3 workers per retiree and they will collect for 18
years.
It is simply unsustainable. The whole concept of a trust fund is
fantasy, invented in 1939 to fund the build up for WWII.

what's also unsustainable is the massive increase in healthcare costs
we face, again, engineered by the 'free market' fundamentalism of the
right.
Health care cost is part of it but simply having 40 million medicare
recipients is unsustainable and that will double in a decade.

It's only unsustainable if no action is taken. Action is being
proposed and the situation will turn around. More fear mongering isn't
part of the solution.

Do you have a 1.5 trillion dollar idea to fix the deficit. That is
really what we are talking about here and it is not a long term
problem it is a problem today. Medicare/SS are just another part of
the deficit now since both are running in the red.

I suggested several ways to start. We DON'T NEED TO FIX THIS TOMORROW.
We need to get started... subsidies, military, tax rates. I know you
don't like it and would prefer to think all is lost and the sky is
falling. It isn't.

The problem is this administration took a giant step in the wrong
direction, cutting the FICA tax. When are they going to start?

Not a giant step. Not compared to the budget busting of the last
couple of decades.


BTW did you see how Geithner is extending the debt ceiling? He is
taking money from the federal pension program. I am surprised nobody
is raising hell about that.

we have no choice but to extend the ceiling. our debt wouldnt be
serviceable if we didnt

The debt will be unserviceable when the interest rate doubles too and
that is far more than likely.

It is not "more likely." There's no credible evidence that interest
rates will be doubling any time soon.

More denial.
At this point we are only paying 0.3% on our short bonds. That is not
likely to continue very long. To think a fraction of a percent rate
hike is impossible it just lunacy. Right now investors are not even
covering the drop in the value of the dollar we pay them back with.

There is NO EVIDENCE of a dramatic increase in interest rates. Total
nonsense.

It doesn't have to be a huge change to make a huge difference.
Interest is now almost a third of our revenue.

You said double. So, you're backpeddling on that?

Every crash in history was caused by debt. If the US economy crashes
it could quite easily be the end of the world as we know it.

It could easily, in your view, start raining marbles. I notice you
finally used the "end of the world" language.

On Mon, 16 May 2011 20:57:03 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 13:37:15 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 14:19:26 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 10:33:01 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 12:17:14 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2011 23:05:20 -0700, wrote:

SS/Medicare would be broke, no matter what happened to the economy.
There simply are not enough workers coming onto the bottom of the
pyramid to support an 83 million person peak.

This is completely untrue. Neither is broke and this is just a right
wing talking point without merit.

That is just denial.
Any program that pays out more than it takes in is doomed to fail

No. You're wrong. Many programs "pay out" more than they take in for
some period of time and they do fine in the long run. You're the one
in denial.

Name one that is on this scale.

Social Security.

You have come back to where you started didn't you.
SS generated huge surpluses for the first 75 years of it's existence,
money we spent.
That where it got the reputation for being successful. Now we are
going to see how it works in deficit.
Give me an example of a program that successfully runs for a
significant time in deficit.

SS hasn't run a deficit for a significant time and it's projected to
do just fine with some minor changes. Feel free to keep ringing the
gong of nonsense until your head hurts.


You started out with 35 or 40 payers per retiree in 1935 and people
were only expected to collect for a couple of years if they lived that
long. Now we have 3 workers per retiree and they will collect for 18
years.
It is simply unsustainable. The whole concept of a trust fund is
fantasy, invented in 1939 to fund the build up for WWII.

what's also unsustainable is the massive increase in healthcare costs
we face, again, engineered by the 'free market' fundamentalism of the
right.
Health care cost is part of it but simply having 40 million medicare
recipients is unsustainable and that will double in a decade.

It's only unsustainable if no action is taken. Action is being
proposed and the situation will turn around. More fear mongering isn't
part of the solution.

Do you have a 1.5 trillion dollar idea to fix the deficit. That is
really what we are talking about here and it is not a long term
problem it is a problem today. Medicare/SS are just another part of
the deficit now since both are running in the red.

I suggested several ways to start. We DON'T NEED TO FIX THIS TOMORROW.
We need to get started... subsidies, military, tax rates. I know you
don't like it and would prefer to think all is lost and the sky is
falling. It isn't.

The problem is this administration took a giant step in the wrong
direction, cutting the FICA tax. When are they going to start?

Not a giant step. Not compared to the budget busting of the last
couple of decades.

I agree we have made some big mistakes but this is going directly to
the SS deficit and clipping 5% of the total revenue from the
government. (payroll taxes are 36% and we took 14% of that away)

So, you'd rather blame Obama for a relatively minor and recent error
than blame Bush for nearly destroying the economy. Got it.

BTW did you see how Geithner is extending the debt ceiling? He is
taking money from the federal pension program. I am surprised nobody
is raising hell about that.

we have no choice but to extend the ceiling. our debt wouldnt be
serviceable if we didnt

The debt will be unserviceable when the interest rate doubles too and
that is far more than likely.

It is not "more likely." There's no credible evidence that interest
rates will be doubling any time soon.

More denial.
At this point we are only paying 0.3% on our short bonds. That is not
likely to continue very long. To think a fraction of a percent rate
hike is impossible it just lunacy. Right now investors are not even
covering the drop in the value of the dollar we pay them back with.

There is NO EVIDENCE of a dramatic increase in interest rates. Total
nonsense.

It doesn't have to be a huge change to make a huge difference.
Interest is now almost a third of our revenue.

You said double. So, you're backpeddling on that?

It is not unreasonable that the 0.3% rate we pay on short money would
double.

Feel free to let us know when there's a crisis.

Every crash in history was caused by debt. If the US economy crashes
it could quite easily be the end of the world as we know it.

It could easily, in your view, start raining marbles. I notice you
finally used the "end of the world" language.

How else would you describe a failure of the dollar?
That is what is at stake here.

The dollar has not "failed." It's devalued against certain currencies,
but it's far from failed. You act like nobody but you is aware of the
situation.

In article ,
says...


The titanic had not been sinking very long either but they had no way
to stop the water. There are no "minor" changes that will fix a 2.6
trillion dollar problem and that is how much money we have to come up
with to pay back those SS bonds you think will make us whole until
2037 ... oops they just said it is 2024. (the latest trust fund
report, in case your google search is old)


No, 2036. Medicare is 2024.
BTW, I just saw that the Obama payroll tax reduction is actually
just a tax reduction on those with FICA wages under the cap, which
is about $107k.
No effect on the SS trust fund.
Why? Treasuries were issued to the SS trust fund to replace the SS
income lost to the SS trust fund due to the cut.
It's called a "tax holiday."
http://tinyurl.com/685fe6g

Slick. Somebody really believes in the trust fund.
So that Treasury issue raised the added debt from SS from $46b to $150b.
Actually though, the $46b SS shortfall should come off the SS trust fund
books as paid out, so the real addition to debt is the $105b due to the
payroll tax cut.

On Tue, 17 May 2011 02:04:11 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 21:58:25 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2011 20:57:03 -0400, wrote:


No. You're wrong. Many programs "pay out" more than they take in for
some period of time and they do fine in the long run. You're the one
in denial.

Name one that is on this scale.

Social Security.

You have come back to where you started didn't you.
SS generated huge surpluses for the first 75 years of it's existence,
money we spent.
That where it got the reputation for being successful. Now we are
going to see how it works in deficit.
Give me an example of a program that successfully runs for a
significant time in deficit.

SS hasn't run a deficit for a significant time and it's projected to
do just fine with some minor changes. Feel free to keep ringing the
gong of nonsense until your head hurts.

The titanic had not been sinking very long either but they had no way
to stop the water. There are no "minor" changes that will fix a 2.6
trillion dollar problem and that is how much money we have to come up
with to pay back those SS bonds you think will make us whole until
2037 ... oops they just said it is 2024. (the latest trust fund
report, in case your google search is old)

Feel free to holler at the top of your lungs if you think doing so
will change the facts.


You started out with 35 or 40 payers per retiree in 1935 and people
were only expected to collect for a couple of years if they lived that
long. Now we have 3 workers per retiree and they will collect for 18
years.
It is simply unsustainable. The whole concept of a trust fund is
fantasy, invented in 1939 to fund the build up for WWII.

what's also unsustainable is the massive increase in healthcare costs
we face, again, engineered by the 'free market' fundamentalism of the
right.
Health care cost is part of it but simply having 40 million medicare
recipients is unsustainable and that will double in a decade.

It's only unsustainable if no action is taken. Action is being
proposed and the situation will turn around. More fear mongering isn't
part of the solution.

Do you have a 1.5 trillion dollar idea to fix the deficit. That is
really what we are talking about here and it is not a long term
problem it is a problem today. Medicare/SS are just another part of
the deficit now since both are running in the red.

I suggested several ways to start. We DON'T NEED TO FIX THIS TOMORROW.
We need to get started... subsidies, military, tax rates. I know you
don't like it and would prefer to think all is lost and the sky is
falling. It isn't.

The problem is this administration took a giant step in the wrong
direction, cutting the FICA tax. When are they going to start?

Not a giant step. Not compared to the budget busting of the last
couple of decades.

I agree we have made some big mistakes but this is going directly to
the SS deficit and clipping 5% of the total revenue from the
government. (payroll taxes are 36% and we took 14% of that away)

So, you'd rather blame Obama for a relatively minor and recent error
than blame Bush for nearly destroying the economy. Got it.

I blame Obama for drinking that same "cut taxes to make more money"
kool ade you were criticizing 6 months ago.
I have been consistent. Bush was wrong and Obama is doubling down on
his mistakes. You are the one who is flip flopping.

Not at all. Please show me where I supported the tax reduction from
Obama.


BTW did you see how Geithner is extending the debt ceiling? He is
taking money from the federal pension program. I am surprised nobody
is raising hell about that.

we have no choice but to extend the ceiling. our debt wouldnt be
serviceable if we didnt

The debt will be unserviceable when the interest rate doubles too and
that is far more than likely.

It is not "more likely." There's no credible evidence that interest
rates will be doubling any time soon.

More denial.
At this point we are only paying 0.3% on our short bonds. That is not
likely to continue very long. To think a fraction of a percent rate
hike is impossible it just lunacy. Right now investors are not even
covering the drop in the value of the dollar we pay them back with.

There is NO EVIDENCE of a dramatic increase in interest rates. Total
nonsense.

It doesn't have to be a huge change to make a huge difference.
Interest is now almost a third of our revenue.

You said double. So, you're backpeddling on that?

It is not unreasonable that the 0.3% rate we pay on short money would
double.

Feel free to let us know when there's a crisis.

OK, I doubt you will have to wait long.

Well, do let us know. Post it here in case we miss it on CNN.


Every crash in history was caused by debt. If the US economy crashes
it could quite easily be the end of the world as we know it.

It could easily, in your view, start raining marbles. I notice you
finally used the "end of the world" language.

How else would you describe a failure of the dollar?
That is what is at stake here.

The dollar has not "failed." It's devalued against certain currencies,
but it's far from failed. You act like nobody but you is aware of the
situation.

Talk to me in a year or two. I said that is what is "at stake" not
what has happened already.

Sure, whatever Mr. Oracle.