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wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:28:00 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

You can't cut any existing programs because it is
politically unacceptable. I already stated that.

Actually, you can cut existing programs, but you have to have two things
in
order to do it. 1) intestinal fortitude 2) ability.

If the Republicans get control of the House, it will definitely not
happen.
If the Democrats retain control, it's unlikely to happen, but it's
possible.


I am skeptical. Our senate race may eventually come down to who will
admit Social Security in it's present state is unsustainable and that
person is going to lose.

Everyone says they are going to fix our deficit problem but they are
unwilling to tackle entitlements. It can't be done.

Untrue... there are several ways to fix the deficit. The best approach would
be to reduce military spending significantly, end some of the more
outrageous subsidies, and address the fraud issues. At the moment, the
"entitlements" are deficit neutral. They'll be a problem at some point, but
not now.

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On Oct 13, 10:47*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Jack
wrote:

I agree... unfortunately, that's the problem in this country... those items
are concentrated in the top percentages.

Really? *Middle-class people in the US have several cars, nice houses,
big-screen HD TVs, send their kids to private schools, and own boats.
You were saying?

Plume doesn't even think I am middle class ($70-80k) and we have all
of that stuff *... paid for ... no debt.

That's because you aren't one of the "I'm entitled to it" crowd. My
hat's off to you... there aren't many like you around these days.

It seems that a lot of people don't realize that the average "middle-
class" family here in the US lives much better than the average
"middle-class" family in the European countries they so love.
Interseting that 3 different European transplants I know that came to
the US many years ago always pined for their home country, saying how
much "better" it was. After finally retiring or vacationing back in
their home countries, *every one* of them came back to the US to
retire and live out their life, finally admitting that it was better
here. I know no one that went back to Europe to retire and stayed
there.

I don't understand where the self-hate comes from.

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On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:42:38 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Canadians who can afford it come to the US since they are not allowed
to go outside the system in their own counrty. Sounds great doesn't
it?


You have a cite for the "fractures" comment? I find it hard to believe
anyone would be turned away if they've broken an arm/leg.

We got to know a couple from Toronto (big city, eastern Canada) during
our cruising adventures last winter. Several years ago he fell from
a ladder and shattered his elbow into multiple pieces. It was 12
days before he could get booked into surgery with an orthopedic
specialist. Meanwhile they sent him home with pain killers while he
waited. They said it was a common experience, that they totally
disliked the Canadian healthcare system, and that MDs are leaving
Canada to practice elsewhere if they have that choice.

Several years ago we met a French doctor who had been practicing in
Canada. He was in the process of returning to France because he
disliked the system.

Be careful what you ask for.

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"Jack" wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 10:47 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Jack
wrote:

I agree... unfortunately, that's the problem in this country... those
items
are concentrated in the top percentages.

Really? Middle-class people in the US have several cars, nice houses,
big-screen HD TVs, send their kids to private schools, and own boats.
You were saying?

Plume doesn't even think I am middle class ($70-80k) and we have all
of that stuff ... paid for ... no debt.

That's because you aren't one of the "I'm entitled to it" crowd. My
hat's off to you... there aren't many like you around these days.

It seems that a lot of people don't realize that the average "middle-
class" family here in the US lives much better than the average
"middle-class" family in the European countries they so love.
Interseting that 3 different European transplants I know that came to
the US many years ago always pined for their home country, saying how
much "better" it was. After finally retiring or vacationing back in
their home countries, *every one* of them came back to the US to
retire and live out their life, finally admitting that it was better
here. I know no one that went back to Europe to retire and stayed
there.

I don't understand where the self-hate comes from.


Please show us where there's self-hate. I see self-awareness.

So, the middle class in this country lives much better. Certainly the poor
don't live at the same level, but beyond that, all you've said is "lives
much better." There are, as I've said, plenty of measures out there that
seem to disagree. Care you cite some actual facts or are you just giving
your opinion?

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"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:42:38 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Canadians who can afford it come to the US since they are not allowed
to go outside the system in their own counrty. Sounds great doesn't
it?


You have a cite for the "fractures" comment? I find it hard to believe
anyone would be turned away if they've broken an arm/leg.

We got to know a couple from Toronto (big city, eastern Canada) during
our cruising adventures last winter. Several years ago he fell from
a ladder and shattered his elbow into multiple pieces. It was 12
days before he could get booked into surgery with an orthopedic
specialist. Meanwhile they sent him home with pain killers while he
waited. They said it was a common experience, that they totally
disliked the Canadian healthcare system, and that MDs are leaving
Canada to practice elsewhere if they have that choice.

Several years ago we met a French doctor who had been practicing in
Canada. He was in the process of returning to France because he
disliked the system.

Be careful what you ask for.


You've described anecdotal evidence. That's a bit limited. Interestingly,
the doctor is returning to France? So, are you saying the French system is
good and the Canadian system isn't? Again, by that one case, it's pretty
hard to tell.

E.g., I have a friend who had some stomach pain... not that bad really, so
he took some antacids and lived with it for a week because he didn't have a
way to get a doctor easily. The pain got worse. Finally, he was able to get
someone to give him a ride to the doctor (at Kaiser). The doc thought he had
some acid reflux (as I recall) and gave him something stronger. He went
home. After a few days, he couldn't stand the pain any more and went back.
It took a few days to get an appointment. The doc sent him to a specialist.
Yet another delay. Finally, the specialist saw him and immediately admitted
him for surgery. Turns out, he had severe ulcerative colitis and had to have
most of his colon removed to save his life. He went from 200 lbs to 140. So,
does this mean his care was rationed or that Kaiser is a bad place to go?
Certainly the first is accurate. If he was better off, he would have gone in
sooner. Is Kaiser a bad place to go? Maybe. In any case, it doesn't say much
about the general case. (He's getting great care at Kaiser now, and has
totally recovered, sans colon pieces.)

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On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 21:47:47 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:03:46 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

"Free" starts looking pretty expensive when you run your 1040 against
a Canadian tax return. They are online and simpler than ours so it is
not hard to try for yourself.

gee. and when our healthcare costs 17% of GDP vs 10 in canada...

We use more health care than canadians.

One example,
There are more MRI machines in SW Florida than the whole country of
Canada,. Need it or not Americans demand every thing they see on Oprah
or Dr Oz.

so you're saying we're less efficient than canadians? our life
expectancy isn't different. their healthcare is just as good AND it
covers everyone.

so yes, you're right. our free market system is inefficient AND more
costly.

that's another reason we need socialized medicine

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On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:38:41 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 21:47:47 -0400, wrote:

We use more health care than canadians.

Health care in Canada is rationed by the government.

and here it's rationed by price. if you're 90 years old, have a 2 week
life expectancy, and can pay, you get the best medical care

if you're a 1 year old with asthma whose parents work but cant afford
medical insurance, you die.


Canadians who can afford it come to the US since they are not allowed
to go outside the system in their own counrty. Sounds great doesn't
it?

wrong. almost no canadians come to the US for healthcare. and about
165,000 americans yearly go overseas for healthcare because ours costs
too much

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On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:37:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:28:00 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Well, there are several groups that look at that. They have a great way to
evaluate it. They look at dollars spend vs. outcome. It's pretty
straightforward. Read up.

Dollars spent is a horrible way to judge that as long as we are
including all of the cosmetic procedures in the total and all of the
unnecessary tests done to cover the doctor's ass from the lawyers.

medical malpractice insurance cost payments are about 1% of all
medical costs....insignificant.

Health Care Enrollment - Looks good
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:44:20 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:28:00 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

You can't cut any existing programs because it is
politically unacceptable. I already stated that.

Actually, you can cut existing programs, but you have to have two things in
order to do it. 1) intestinal fortitude 2) ability.

If the Republicans get control of the House, it will definitely not happen.
If the Democrats retain control, it's unlikely to happen, but it's possible.


I am skeptical. Our senate race may eventually come down to who will
admit Social Security in it's present state is unsustainable and that
person is going to lose.

Everyone says they are going to fix our deficit problem but they are
unwilling to tackle entitlements. It can't be done.

SS can be fixed relativiely quickly by taking the cap off salaries

Health Care Enrollment - Looks good
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 21:47:47 -0400, wrote:

We use more health care than canadians.

Health care in Canada is rationed by the government. Unless you have
an imminently life threatening condition you can not get to see a
specialist right away or have surgery performed. This applies even
to severe injuries like fractures.

Canadians who can afford it come to the US since they are not allowed
to go outside the system in their own counrty. Sounds great doesn't
it?


Depends on what you mean by "right away".
I had a few little marks on my face that were marring my usual 'rugged
handsome' appearance. ;-)
It took 6 weeks to see a skin specialist and have the them blasted with
liquid nitrogen.
This was purely cosmetic........... he didn't charge me one red penny.
Matter of fact, I called back for a re-do because a bit of the larger marks
remained.
I'm scheduled in right after New Years, but they said to keep calling back
in case he has cancellations between now & then.
I realize this may be slow service compared to what y'all are used to in
Florida, but the price is right.