In article ,
says...

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:51:16 -0400, Harry
wrote:

It is stupid to keep paying money to a guy who is sitting home waiting
for the buggie whip plant to reopen.


In more civilized countries, when a job for which you have trained or
educated yourself disappears or you are injured to the point you can't
work your trade, the government sends you back to school to learn a
newer trade, and helps you support your family in the meantime.


The problem with the federal government doing that is, by the time you
got the bureaucracy in place, the job you were training for might be
obsolete and the government would make so many of those tradesmen that
job market would be flooded.
They can't seem to do anything on a small scale and most of the money
ends up going into the pockets of a few special interests with big
lobbying budgets.
I heard the other day that lobbyists pump 1.3 million dollars a
legislative minute into our congress. (based on the number of hours
congress is in session)

Harry just demostrates that the entitlement mentality is alive and well
in our society.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:22:36 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 13:37:20 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:43:25 -0400, wrote:



Probably just the latter ;-)

I would support changing the rules to say that the recipient shows
some evidence that they are looking for work

?? WTF??

has he never been unemployed???

uh...hey genius....you HAVE TO DO THIS ALREADY!

Bull****, they just have to say they looked in the paper and didn't
find anything.

i was on unemployment at one point. so you're full of ****

I mean they should have to show real effort. Some do, a lot don't.
Plenty cheat. (work a cash job and still collect)

more bull****. he thinks people like being unemployed but he hasa
faith in the rich to do the right thing


If you want to blame wall street you better be blaming our parents who
needed all of that wall street money for their pensions.


more bull****. do you get a volume discount?

wall street DESTROYED this economy. you right wing bull****ters wont
admit it because you'd have to admit the rich **** the middle
class...are waging class warfare.

You like to demonize the money changers for making money with money
and then bitch because they are not making you enough money in your
401k that you just put on autopilot and refuse to manage. What a
hypocrite.

uh no. you excuse the rich for plundering the middle class...you
excuse them for inventings CDOS that screwed the economy

THEN you blame the middle class for all t his. typical right winger

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:19:46 -0400, Harry
wrote:

On 8/14/10 2:05 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:51:16 -0400,
wrote:

It is stupid to keep paying money to a guy who is sitting home waiting
for the buggie whip plant to reopen.


In more civilized countries, when a job for which you have trained or
educated yourself disappears or you are injured to the point you can't
work your trade, the government sends you back to school to learn a
newer trade, and helps you support your family in the meantime.


The problem with the federal government doing that is, by the time you
got the bureaucracy in place, the job you were training for might be
obsolete and the government would make so many of those tradesmen that
job market would be flooded.
They can't seem to do anything on a small scale and most of the money
ends up going into the pockets of a few special interests with big
lobbying budgets.
I heard the other day that lobbyists pump 1.3 million dollars a
legislative minute into our congress. (based on the number of hours
congress is in session)

The problem with the large-scale private sector is that it is
multinational and doesn't give a damn about the United States or
Americans. We need a major restructuring of our society, including any
tax laws that in any way encourage corporations to send jobs overseas.

We also need to step up our support of free trade unions for workers
overseas in slave or near slave labor countries. We have to have a world
in which there is no place for exploitative corporations to hide.


You would have to start with Government Motors. They took some of our
bailout money and started up a research department in China with it.



That was Bush's fault.

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:13:34 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 13:34:57 -0400, bpuharic wrote:


actually there aren't. since there are 5 applicants for every job,
it's ridiculous to pretend there are jobs out there.

there aren't. if there were people would be filling them. people want
to work.

denial of the obvious is a fact of life for the right wing


You latch onto a bumper sticker line you heard on Olbermann and won't
let it go.

uh huh. and in your world, 15 million middle class wage earners
decided to get together and force their companies to lay them off
because they're lazy.

it had nothing to do with the run up in CDO's from 1 trillion to SIXTY
TWO TRILLION by 2007

it's the middle class, you see...

Where are those "5 applicants"? in Detroit? What job?

There are still opportunities out there, you just won't find them from
your cubicle or sitting on your mom's couch.

prove it. go ahead.

where's your data? rush iimpballs has your head stuffed with right
wing bull****

If I was really looking for a career I would get into small systems
integration

no one gives a rat's ass about you. there are millions out of work.
and you blame THEM rather than the nice folks on wall street.

wrote:


I never said we were drowning in jobs, just there are jobs for people
who are qualified and willing to think outside of the little box they
have been working in.

That's always been the case, and for time immemorial people have been
able and willing to change occupations to put food on the table.
You're speaking in cliches.
"Qualified?"
The real unemployment rate is probably close to 20%.
Without connections it's very hard if not impossible to find work.
Many people don't have "connections" like your wife.
That's who offered her a job. A connection.
If she was unemployed with no connections you would be singing a
different tune.
Big mistake to take personal circumstances and project those on the
wider problem of normal people who can't find a job.
Everybody isn't you.


I agree there are lots of people who do not have the skills to find a
job in the 21st century but the answer to that is to retrain them, not
to just send them a check and hope the buggie whip business takes off
again.

Jobs are needed to target retraining.
I don't buy any of your BS about how special you were to make a career
switch back in the 90's when the country was flooded with work.
I did the same, and just considered it my normal survivor instinct.
It was easy as hell.
But if I was trying to do that today it wouldn't be easy at all.
Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't.
What I do know is now ain't then.

Maybe we should take some of that unspent stimulus money and fund
training centers that just concentrate on giving people job skills but
the real problem is what will they do if we are not making anything
here anymore.

That's the key.
If we don't get manufacturing back here get used to a welfare state.
One might think there is an American aversion to having a large class
of people not engaged in productive labor.

After all, the welfare rolls were killed back in the 90's.
Unfortunately, the welfare queens were replaced by the Wall Street
kings, who were no more productive and did far more harm to the country.
They have not yet been rejected, so a future welfare state is still in
the cards.

Then you have all the early retiree boomers, not producing anything, but
living off SS and the inflated returns of money they invested from
inflated salaries, which was used to offshore American jobs.

You have your SS disability scammers, many of them seemingly middle
class white folks of good repute from good families.
But plenty of them are just lazy bums who prefer gov money to work.

You have all those who barely did a lick of work but inherited the
proceeds of their parents' labor.

This country is full of welfare queens and kings.
They just don't live in ghettos and drive pimped out Caddies.
And they all say "I deserve what I got." "I'm special."

IMO, the best thing that can happen to this country is to offshore
current Wall Street practices into oblivion.
Allow 401k contributions only into equities of American firms who
produce in America, or into financial instruments which provide capital
to be invested in same.

How can America ever be strong when American investment capital is
largely used to destroy American jobs and strengthen our economic enemies?
It can't.
The country won't work when people aren't working.

So take your pick. Current Wall Street practice and welfare state, or
changed Wall Street practice and no welfare state.
That's what will play out.
I tend to think welfare state, because for many that's easier than
working, and from what I've seen, America is more and more loaded with
bums. Besides, the pols are owned by Wall Street.

You got your lib bums and your conservative bums.
Don't matter. A bum is a bum. And most think they're "special."

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.

Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

Jim - "not making anything here anymore" was the only light here.

On 8/16/10 12:56 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:39:40 -0500, wrote:

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.

Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

This goes beyond the unions but they would be a factor. You also have
all of the other government roadblocks.

If this was a federal project, the unions would be lobbying the hell
out of it and pretty soon it would be so expensive it would fail.
That is the problem with federal solutions.

You still need the feds to shortcut the approval process by creating a
special NRTL just for these projects.

Without federal involvement creating a "Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory" to certify these systems you can't install them (virtually
every building department requires listed equipment) and it is OSHA
that certifies a NRTL. That would run you up against U/L et al,
another big lobby.
If you actually did have to submit them to U/L, ETL,TUV (or one of
the few other recognized labs) the process would take years and cost
way up in six figures for each design.
That is not going to help people who need something now and it puts a
chilling pall over innovation.
It also insures only the big boys can play.

When you look at this simple idea you start to see how regulation has
killed innovation.
You can find some great ideas for solar water heaters on Mother Earth
News but it is illegal to install one of them unless you live in an
unincorporated area in Idaho where they don't have a building
department.
I guarantee you there is no place in Florida where an unlisted water
heater is legal. Your mileage will vary on how long it would take code
enforcement to hang a red tag on your door.


So, you are also against needed regulation of potentially dangerous
equipment, and against workers making a decent living. What's your
response to, say, a few hundred sloppily engineered and installed water
heaters leaking, or the roofs collapsing?

"Well, regulation would just add to the cost."


Hey, let's get rid of drug testing, car safety testing, electrical
appliance testing, et cetera... :)






--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.

wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:39:40 -0500, Jim wrote:

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.
Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

This goes beyond the unions but they would be a factor. You also have
all of the other government roadblocks.

If this was a federal project, the unions would be lobbying the hell
out of it and pretty soon it would be so expensive it would fail.
That is the problem with federal solutions.

You still need the feds to shortcut the approval process by creating a
special NRTL just for these projects.

Without federal involvement creating a "Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory" to certify these systems you can't install them (virtually
every building department requires listed equipment) and it is OSHA
that certifies a NRTL. That would run you up against U/L et al,
another big lobby.
If you actually did have to submit them to U/L, ETL,TUV (or one of
the few other recognized labs) the process would take years and cost
way up in six figures for each design.
That is not going to help people who need something now and it puts a
chilling pall over innovation.
It also insures only the big boys can play.


I don't want Joe the Plumber or Jimmy Bob Solar getting into my drinking
water.
Be my guest if you do.
You sure can find excuse after excuse not to do something.
This guy had no problem getting the job done.

http://solarroofs.com/news10video.html

According to the site they sell for Florida homes too.

http://solarroofs.com/index.html#customers
Browse at your leisure.

Just don't go looking for Skyline systems so you can report the
homeowner to the authorities trying to prove a point you failed to make.
There's other solar water heater outfits besides that one.
Many.


When you look at this simple idea you start to see how regulation has
killed innovation.
You can find some great ideas for solar water heaters on Mother Earth
News but it is illegal to install one of them unless you live in an
unincorporated area in Idaho where they don't have a building
department.
I guarantee you there is no place in Florida where an unlisted water
heater is legal. Your mileage will vary on how long it would take code
enforcement to hang a red tag on your door.

I sure as hell don't want Joe the Plumber brazing up automobile
radiators for potable water heating systems and poisoning me with lead
and anti-freeze.
If you really cared about American business one obvious argument you
could have made is that all the generous American tax-payer funded
Energy Star and other tax credits only qualify when American-made
equipment is purchased or installed.
That would be progress in job creation.
Nope. You bitched about regulations that keep folks from being poisoned
or electrocuted.
I really think you have a negative attitude.

Jim - Some strive to succeed, others to fail.

"Harry" wrote in message
m...
On 8/16/10 12:56 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:39:40 -0500, wrote:

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.

Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

This goes beyond the unions but they would be a factor. You also have
all of the other government roadblocks.

If this was a federal project, the unions would be lobbying the hell
out of it and pretty soon it would be so expensive it would fail.
That is the problem with federal solutions.

You still need the feds to shortcut the approval process by creating a
special NRTL just for these projects.

Without federal involvement creating a "Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory" to certify these systems you can't install them (virtually
every building department requires listed equipment) and it is OSHA
that certifies a NRTL. That would run you up against U/L et al,
another big lobby.
If you actually did have to submit them to U/L, ETL,TUV (or one of
the few other recognized labs) the process would take years and cost
way up in six figures for each design.
That is not going to help people who need something now and it puts a
chilling pall over innovation.
It also insures only the big boys can play.

When you look at this simple idea you start to see how regulation has
killed innovation.
You can find some great ideas for solar water heaters on Mother Earth
News but it is illegal to install one of them unless you live in an
unincorporated area in Idaho where they don't have a building
department.
I guarantee you there is no place in Florida where an unlisted water
heater is legal. Your mileage will vary on how long it would take code
enforcement to hang a red tag on your door.


So, you are also against needed regulation of potentially dangerous
equipment, and against workers making a decent living. What's your
response to, say, a few hundred sloppily engineered and installed water
heaters leaking, or the roofs collapsing?

"Well, regulation would just add to the cost."


Hey, let's get rid of drug testing, car safety testing, electrical
appliance testing, et cetera... :)






--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows. If
a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.


PS
I really get tired of singing this same old song to you guys. Why aren't you
listening to me?

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.

In article ,
says...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...

"Charles C." wrote in message
...
While watching Keith Olberman's "Countdown" show last evening in which he
featured a segment on a couple who had lost their jobs, I had a thought
on how the unemployment insurance programs might be modified.

The husband had worked in the auto parts industry all his adult life but
his job was eliminated. Despite efforts to find a new, similar job he,
like many, had found that his job was gone, not to return.

He acknowledged finding a new job, requiring him to start over in a new
career and at a low starting wage. He freely admitted that it did not
make sense for him to take the new job because he was better off
financially collecting unemployment benefits. He wants to work, but has
to do the best thing money-wise to keep his house, etc.

Many are in the same boat.

Since many jobs are gone for good and people are going to have to start
new careers with lower pay due to little or no experience, my thought
was this:

Rather than continue to extend full unemployment benefits during this
critical economy, structure the unemployment funding as a subsidy to the
new, lower pay scale common to a new job in which one has no experience.
Benefits would be tied to the last year's earnings before being layed
off. The combined new job pay and the subsidized income from the
unemployment fund would equal some percentage (say 75-90 percent) of the
previous income. This benefit would last for a period of 2 years ...
sufficient time to become trained and knowledgeable in the new job.

This would cut the amount of money currently being paid out in
unemployment benefits, provide an incentive for new jobs resulting in
lower unemployment.

Note: This is a totally non-partisan idea. No blame cast on the left
or right.

This basic concept has been talked about for a long time. I find it truly
loony that if you say you're in school, e.g., training for a new career,
you're unemployment benefits suffer. Of course, this would be unpopular,
mainly because it's a complicated explanation... not that it doesn't make
some sense.


Welcome back Ms Plume.
Your legion of admirers sure did miss you..................... you are all
they could talk about.
Did you buy a boat?
I probably won't see your reply until late Monday. We're taking mom and my
oldest sister to beautiful Cape Breton.
My youngest sister and her husband will meet us there as we visit my #3
sister.

Are you taking your drunk son?

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.

In article ,
says...

On 8/14/10 10:24 AM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:13:55 -0400, wrote:



How about you get no more than 3 months of unemployment period.

since there are 5 applicants for every job, how is this going to help

again and again the right penalizes the middle class. we bankroll the
rich with bailouts, then the right comes along and says the middle
class is lazy.


How about unemployment benefits that are no greater than minimum wage in
your local area.

Nobody owes you a job.

more of the right wing bull****...we socialize risk for the rich, then
privatize rewards for the rich and the middle class pays for both



Get off your ass and get to work.

more right wing bull**** mytholoogy

where are the jobs? notice he doesnt ask THAT question?

the right has their bull**** mythology. and it's centered around the
idea that the US should be a prison camp for the middle class


Well, you could apply for BAR's job. Anyone could, as the job
requirements are minimal. Well, maybe Little Man Tosk couldn't...

Spoofer alert! I don't even have a job.

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.