wrote:


I never said we were drowning in jobs, just there are jobs for people
who are qualified and willing to think outside of the little box they
have been working in.

That's always been the case, and for time immemorial people have been
able and willing to change occupations to put food on the table.
You're speaking in cliches.
"Qualified?"
The real unemployment rate is probably close to 20%.
Without connections it's very hard if not impossible to find work.
Many people don't have "connections" like your wife.
That's who offered her a job. A connection.
If she was unemployed with no connections you would be singing a
different tune.
Big mistake to take personal circumstances and project those on the
wider problem of normal people who can't find a job.
Everybody isn't you.


I agree there are lots of people who do not have the skills to find a
job in the 21st century but the answer to that is to retrain them, not
to just send them a check and hope the buggie whip business takes off
again.

Jobs are needed to target retraining.
I don't buy any of your BS about how special you were to make a career
switch back in the 90's when the country was flooded with work.
I did the same, and just considered it my normal survivor instinct.
It was easy as hell.
But if I was trying to do that today it wouldn't be easy at all.
Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't.
What I do know is now ain't then.

Maybe we should take some of that unspent stimulus money and fund
training centers that just concentrate on giving people job skills but
the real problem is what will they do if we are not making anything
here anymore.

That's the key.
If we don't get manufacturing back here get used to a welfare state.
One might think there is an American aversion to having a large class
of people not engaged in productive labor.

After all, the welfare rolls were killed back in the 90's.
Unfortunately, the welfare queens were replaced by the Wall Street
kings, who were no more productive and did far more harm to the country.
They have not yet been rejected, so a future welfare state is still in
the cards.

Then you have all the early retiree boomers, not producing anything, but
living off SS and the inflated returns of money they invested from
inflated salaries, which was used to offshore American jobs.

You have your SS disability scammers, many of them seemingly middle
class white folks of good repute from good families.
But plenty of them are just lazy bums who prefer gov money to work.

You have all those who barely did a lick of work but inherited the
proceeds of their parents' labor.

This country is full of welfare queens and kings.
They just don't live in ghettos and drive pimped out Caddies.
And they all say "I deserve what I got." "I'm special."

IMO, the best thing that can happen to this country is to offshore
current Wall Street practices into oblivion.
Allow 401k contributions only into equities of American firms who
produce in America, or into financial instruments which provide capital
to be invested in same.

How can America ever be strong when American investment capital is
largely used to destroy American jobs and strengthen our economic enemies?
It can't.
The country won't work when people aren't working.

So take your pick. Current Wall Street practice and welfare state, or
changed Wall Street practice and no welfare state.
That's what will play out.
I tend to think welfare state, because for many that's easier than
working, and from what I've seen, America is more and more loaded with
bums. Besides, the pols are owned by Wall Street.

You got your lib bums and your conservative bums.
Don't matter. A bum is a bum. And most think they're "special."

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.

Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

Jim - "not making anything here anymore" was the only light here.

On 8/16/10 12:56 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:39:40 -0500, wrote:

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.

Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

This goes beyond the unions but they would be a factor. You also have
all of the other government roadblocks.

If this was a federal project, the unions would be lobbying the hell
out of it and pretty soon it would be so expensive it would fail.
That is the problem with federal solutions.

You still need the feds to shortcut the approval process by creating a
special NRTL just for these projects.

Without federal involvement creating a "Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory" to certify these systems you can't install them (virtually
every building department requires listed equipment) and it is OSHA
that certifies a NRTL. That would run you up against U/L et al,
another big lobby.
If you actually did have to submit them to U/L, ETL,TUV (or one of
the few other recognized labs) the process would take years and cost
way up in six figures for each design.
That is not going to help people who need something now and it puts a
chilling pall over innovation.
It also insures only the big boys can play.

When you look at this simple idea you start to see how regulation has
killed innovation.
You can find some great ideas for solar water heaters on Mother Earth
News but it is illegal to install one of them unless you live in an
unincorporated area in Idaho where they don't have a building
department.
I guarantee you there is no place in Florida where an unlisted water
heater is legal. Your mileage will vary on how long it would take code
enforcement to hang a red tag on your door.


So, you are also against needed regulation of potentially dangerous
equipment, and against workers making a decent living. What's your
response to, say, a few hundred sloppily engineered and installed water
heaters leaking, or the roofs collapsing?

"Well, regulation would just add to the cost."


Hey, let's get rid of drug testing, car safety testing, electrical
appliance testing, et cetera... :)






--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.

"Harry" wrote in message
m...
On 8/16/10 12:56 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:39:40 -0500, wrote:

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.

Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

This goes beyond the unions but they would be a factor. You also have
all of the other government roadblocks.

If this was a federal project, the unions would be lobbying the hell
out of it and pretty soon it would be so expensive it would fail.
That is the problem with federal solutions.

You still need the feds to shortcut the approval process by creating a
special NRTL just for these projects.

Without federal involvement creating a "Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory" to certify these systems you can't install them (virtually
every building department requires listed equipment) and it is OSHA
that certifies a NRTL. That would run you up against U/L et al,
another big lobby.
If you actually did have to submit them to U/L, ETL,TUV (or one of
the few other recognized labs) the process would take years and cost
way up in six figures for each design.
That is not going to help people who need something now and it puts a
chilling pall over innovation.
It also insures only the big boys can play.

When you look at this simple idea you start to see how regulation has
killed innovation.
You can find some great ideas for solar water heaters on Mother Earth
News but it is illegal to install one of them unless you live in an
unincorporated area in Idaho where they don't have a building
department.
I guarantee you there is no place in Florida where an unlisted water
heater is legal. Your mileage will vary on how long it would take code
enforcement to hang a red tag on your door.


So, you are also against needed regulation of potentially dangerous
equipment, and against workers making a decent living. What's your
response to, say, a few hundred sloppily engineered and installed water
heaters leaking, or the roofs collapsing?

"Well, regulation would just add to the cost."


Hey, let's get rid of drug testing, car safety testing, electrical
appliance testing, et cetera... :)






--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows. If
a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.


PS
I really get tired of singing this same old song to you guys. Why aren't you
listening to me?

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.

wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:39:40 -0500, Jim wrote:

Maybe someone should start little regional businesses making and
installing something simple like solar water heaters. That would be
good for the workers and good for the environment.
Unfortunately the union plumbers, pipe fitters and boilermakers would
probably shut you down.
Right. The tremendous threat of the evil unions overrunning us here in
Florida - what is it, 5% union membership, third lowest of all states? -
will kill our spirit of entrepreneurship.
That's what killed Frogwatch's outfit.
Right.

This goes beyond the unions but they would be a factor. You also have
all of the other government roadblocks.

If this was a federal project, the unions would be lobbying the hell
out of it and pretty soon it would be so expensive it would fail.
That is the problem with federal solutions.

You still need the feds to shortcut the approval process by creating a
special NRTL just for these projects.

Without federal involvement creating a "Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory" to certify these systems you can't install them (virtually
every building department requires listed equipment) and it is OSHA
that certifies a NRTL. That would run you up against U/L et al,
another big lobby.
If you actually did have to submit them to U/L, ETL,TUV (or one of
the few other recognized labs) the process would take years and cost
way up in six figures for each design.
That is not going to help people who need something now and it puts a
chilling pall over innovation.
It also insures only the big boys can play.


I don't want Joe the Plumber or Jimmy Bob Solar getting into my drinking
water.
Be my guest if you do.
You sure can find excuse after excuse not to do something.
This guy had no problem getting the job done.

http://solarroofs.com/news10video.html

According to the site they sell for Florida homes too.

http://solarroofs.com/index.html#customers
Browse at your leisure.

Just don't go looking for Skyline systems so you can report the
homeowner to the authorities trying to prove a point you failed to make.
There's other solar water heater outfits besides that one.
Many.


When you look at this simple idea you start to see how regulation has
killed innovation.
You can find some great ideas for solar water heaters on Mother Earth
News but it is illegal to install one of them unless you live in an
unincorporated area in Idaho where they don't have a building
department.
I guarantee you there is no place in Florida where an unlisted water
heater is legal. Your mileage will vary on how long it would take code
enforcement to hang a red tag on your door.

I sure as hell don't want Joe the Plumber brazing up automobile
radiators for potable water heating systems and poisoning me with lead
and anti-freeze.
If you really cared about American business one obvious argument you
could have made is that all the generous American tax-payer funded
Energy Star and other tax credits only qualify when American-made
equipment is purchased or installed.
That would be progress in job creation.
Nope. You bitched about regulations that keep folks from being poisoned
or electrocuted.
I really think you have a negative attitude.

Jim - Some strive to succeed, others to fail.

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:19:30 -0500, Jim wrote:

According to the site they sell for Florida homes too.

http://solarroofs.com/index.html#customers
Browse at your leisure.

I browsed and I see the "certifications"

I still do not see a NRTL listed and there are a lot of building
departments that will not issue you a permit without one.

This is what the Florida IAEI (electrical inspectors) has to say about
it.
the consensus is "It needs to be certified by a NRTL."

http://www.iaeifl.org/forums/ubbthre....html#Post7273


You have to read the whole thing. The inspector from Cape Coral said
he'd pass an FSEC approved system.
FSEC has tested and approved the Skyline systems.
The pool system they were arguing about had components with no ratings
at all, and the system wasn't FSEC approved.
Looks like those inspectors don't have their act together.
They should straighten themselves out, get with the new technology, and
get the definitive answer about what FSEC system approval means.

If you are climbing around on your roof with these collectors and
don't have a permit, you are just trusting none of your neighbors are
mad at you about anything or just condo commander types who want to do
the right thing
Building departments are really looking for work these days. Some are
just driving around looking for violations, simply to keep their job.

If there's a chance of getting caught, get the permit. Simple as that.
And if you do that, you talk to the inspector about the system first so
you're in sync and there's no surprises.

Jim - Solar water heating looks too expensive now anyway. Wait 6 more
months. Maybe 8.

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:29:20 -0500, Jim wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:19:30 -0500, Jim wrote:

According to the site they sell for Florida homes too.

http://solarroofs.com/index.html#customers
Browse at your leisure.
I browsed and I see the "certifications"

I still do not see a NRTL listed and there are a lot of building
departments that will not issue you a permit without one.

This is what the Florida IAEI (electrical inspectors) has to say about
it.
the consensus is "It needs to be certified by a NRTL."

http://www.iaeifl.org/forums/ubbthre....html#Post7273

You have to read the whole thing. The inspector from Cape Coral said
he'd pass an FSEC approved system.
FSEC has tested and approved the Skyline systems.
The pool system they were arguing about had components with no ratings
at all, and the system wasn't FSEC approved.
Looks like those inspectors don't have their act together.
They should straighten themselves out, get with the new technology, and
get the definitive answer about what FSEC system approval means.


Yet the city of Northport says no (Bryan Holland)


No, he was talking about a non-FSEC approved pool system.
It had components with no certs, and wasn't an FSEC approved system.
The Cape Coral inspector butted in with FSEC approved systems.
Which he said he passes, and he laid out the rules.
Seemed clear to me if FSEC approves a system the inspectors should have
no problem with it.
But except for the Cape Coral guy, nobody was talking about an FSEC
approved system.
Florida is spending a lot of money for FSEC testing and certification of
these solar systems.
And they are being installed throughout the state.
I highly doubt an inspector would buck FSEC certification.
Wouldn't add to his job security.


If you are climbing around on your roof with these collectors and
don't have a permit, you are just trusting none of your neighbors are
mad at you about anything or just condo commander types who want to do
the right thing
Building departments are really looking for work these days. Some are
just driving around looking for violations, simply to keep their job.
If there's a chance of getting caught, get the permit. Simple as that.
And if you do that, you talk to the inspector about the system first so
you're in sync and there's no surprises.


The problem is if your BO is a guy who thinks you need NRTL listing
and that is more common than not.

If an inspector doesn't know about FSEC certification he should be
fired. And jailed.

You also notice it is only the collector that is certified, not the
controller or the pump.

No, looks to me that all collectors have SRCC certs. FSEC probably
requires that before they'll test for their system cert.
That's a guess.
The Skyline system came to FSEC with a SRCC collector cert, then FSEC
issued its cert after system testing.
I saw somewhere FSEC also tests the PV's during their system test.
For the Skyline the PV runs a 12v pump.
You can see the extent of the FSEC program and testing regime by
googling for it.
Here
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/certifica...ards/index.htm
You can also find the FSEC system certs for the Skyline systems.
ACR International.




That is why I say they really need a federal program, endorsed by OSHA
(the people who certify a NRTL) to get system certifications without
kicking that $100,000 U/L tar baby.


Why complicate things? You remind me of a worry wart.
Sounds like you just want to make trouble.
Act like a damn Floridian. We don't need fed interference for solar hot
water heater certification.
In fact, FSEC is the most important solar hot water cert nationwide.
You should be proud. I am.
And tell your inspector compadres to listen up. FSEC is the new sheriff
in town.

Jim - Damn, I wish I had an FSEC badge and a gun. And a hat.
I'd show them inspectors a thing or two. Especially the ones hanging
around in that biker bar in Bartow. And gfretwell too if he's in there.

wrote:

I am a real softie in that crowd. Most of them are hard core "if it
ain't NRTL listed, don't even bother unpacking the box".
The law will back them up every time.

BTW I have a question in to the Lee County building department asking
if a FSEC certified system can be installed if it is not NRTL listed.
I will post the answer.

That's a beginning.
Then if they say no the next step is to call FSEC and and a couple of
manufacturers of FSEC certified solar systems and tell them your local
inspector won't allow the systems.
Even though thousands of of FSEC certified systems are being installed
though the state with inspector approval.
Then you'll eventually find the ending when they get their acts together.
Solar systems are relatively new and a very small part of inspector duties.
I've always found that rigid ideologues who buck the tide of common
sense get tossed.
And an inspector nail sticking up against common sense will get hammered
down.
An inspector is in essence just another CYA bureaucrat.
If I cared I would start he
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/people/directory.php?d=do
My question would be what to do about a local inspector who is negating
FSEC's hard work and not allowing the progress of solar systems.
I would say the FSEC's work is meaningless to me and everybody else in
my locality because your certification is ignored by the inspector.
Maybe he'll just answer by saying
"Hey, you live in a locality of twit inspectors and there's nothing I
can do. Move, or live with it."
And maybe he'll say, "Give the FSEC Marshall this joker's name and he'll
set him straight."
If I cared about solar I would raise all kinds of hell if an inspector
told me he wouldn't approve a FSEC certified Skyline system.
BTW, we're still not clear on Bryan's problem. He never mentioned an
actual system, just that a company was installing a system.
And it appeared to me the company was using using components that had
never been tested as a system by FSEC.
Our solar companies and inspector troops need some FSEC leadership on solar.

Jim - Looking for solutions, not looking to make more problems.