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Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
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Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF
wrote: Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know. They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice the barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor down and couldn't get it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing in with large commercial traffic. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Jun 22, 10:34*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF wrote: Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. *I have to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges and a tug. *Probably not is my guess but you never know. They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice the barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor down and couldn't get it up, etc. *There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing in with large commercial traffic. One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. The "I'm a 'professional' driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to get out of my way" attitude. Rules of navigation notwithstanding, it's on his conscience now. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
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Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Jun 22, 9:29*pm, W1TEF wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"Harry" wrote in message m... On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Or at least a camera. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:21:24 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote: It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. One possibility is that the guys in the fishing boat were used to seeing barges and tugs go by and didn't think anything of it. Supposedly they were all experienced and fished in the same area frequently. If the barges were outside of their normal track for some reason they could have been caught by surprise. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Jun 23, 9:08*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:21:24 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. *I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. One possibility is that the guys in the fishing boat were used to seeing barges and tugs go by and didn't think anything of it. Supposedly they were all experienced and fished in the same area frequently. *If the barges were outside of their normal track for some reason they could have been caught by surprise. But still that ain't something small. You'd think it would have gotten their attention once it was a few hundred feet away. At least enough to decide to keep an eye on it. Just speculation though. Amybe we'll get some more detals. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 6:26 AM, Harry wrote:
On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Don't they have spotters and horns? Can't say I have navigated those waters but if they are that long I would expect spotters at least. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 6/23/10 9:22 AM, Canuck57 wrote:
On 23/06/2010 6:26 AM, Harry wrote: On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Don't they have spotters and horns? Can't say I have navigated those waters but if they are that long I would expect spotters at least. Well, on a nine barge train, the spotter would have to be on the bow of the most forward barge to do any good. I don't know the answer to your question. I do know, though, that it can be very dangerous to fish in the "ship channel" in the middle of Chesapeake Bay, because huge freighters can "sneak right up" on you if you are not paying close attention. Another dangerous place is near the mouth of the St. Johns River in NE Florida. That river has significant shipping and military traffic. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF
wrote: "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." The kind of barges we see in Iowa are one hundred feet by four hundred. A standard tow is four wide and three long. At ten feet per second it would take two minutes for the tow to complete the job of running you down. You would be anxious for air long before the end of it. Then you go through a screw on the pushboat. Casady |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
In article 991b7911-95f9-412a-a5b7-
, says... On Jun 22, 9:29*pm, W1TEF wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese! |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, W1TEF wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. reply: It takes a very long distance to turn or stop these aquatic freight trains. Unless the barges ran right over the person, pressing them underwater for a long time, they would have had a much better chance of floating around it like a bobbing cork with a life jacket on. Boating without a life jacket while under way is a personal call for each person. I got knocked off a drilling platform in the Gulf of Mexico. I had one on. I have no doubt it saved my life. To each his own. It's not an assumption that wearing a life jacket will save your life automatically. Just like it is not an assumption that a seat belt will save your life in a car crash. It's a statistic that is proven by millions of episodes. You have a better chance if you have some safety equipment on. Just the facts, maam. Steve visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"Harold" wrote in message ... "Harry" wrote in message m... On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Or at least a camera. They do have lookouts, but are used mainly during docking and mating of barges. A lookout could do very little but alert the captain, and the captain could do very little, as these things don't stop and turn on a dime. Steve visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 6/23/10 10:32 AM, I am Tosk wrote:
In article991b7911-95f9-412a-a5b7- , says... On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. I have been there and almost got run over.. Rewind and try it again. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Jun 23, 11:01*am, W1TEF wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:32:52 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Jun 22, 10:34 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF wrote: Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know. They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice the barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor down and couldn't get it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing in with large commercial traffic. One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. *The "I'm a 'professional' driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to get out of my way" attitude. *Rules of navigation notwithstanding, it's on his conscience now. I don't know how big the tow was, but a typical tow is four to five barges moved by a pusher - a lot of times even bigger than that. *You need a long sight line because these tows are a couple of hundred long. *If the accident was on a bend, you have zero sight line and have to rely on radio communication to make the turn. *If these guys didn't have a radio, for instance, they might never have known the tow operator was even there. Not attitude as much as it is, what the hell can I do with a few thousand tons of floating steel in a confined space? *:) Good point. The story called it a "lake", but after googling it I see it's more of a river. Seems to be 1/2 to 1 mile wide and almost 60 miles long. I had pictured a more open situation with room to see and manuever. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"Harry" wrote in message m... On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Good point... or maybe they should be restricted in how many barges they can push in a confined space. We have a bit of a similar controversy up here on 'road trains'... that is 18 wheelers pulling two trailers, rather than one. Lots of safety concerns from the public. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"I am Tosk" wrote in message ... In article 991b7911-95f9-412a-a5b7- , says... On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, W1TEF wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese! Maybe it was a 'police barge' and they were looking for you. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 6/23/10 2:09 PM, YukonBound wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in message ... In article 991b7911-95f9-412a-a5b7- , says... On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, W1TEF wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese! Maybe it was a 'police barge' and they were looking for you. snerk Yeah...the cops wanted to keel haul the little ****. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Jun 23, 12:35*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:32:18 -0400, I am Tosk wrote: I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. I thought the front barge was required to have running lights and a flasher. At any rate the sun was up when this happened Then again, if the fisherman were familiar with the area, then they should have known to watch for barge traffic. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. It's not for me. We were in the Atchafalaya River one morning on our way to a great oxbow isolated fishing lake south of Butte La Rose, Louisiana called Cow Island Lake. Google earth it, and you will see the tiny cut we are talking about. We rounded a corner and came into a narrow cut about the same time a barge was coming out of it. We nearly ran into it head-on. We had been on that stretch many times, but had never once seen a barge in that cut. We figured he got in there by mistake, or may have been taking it as a shortcut. There wasn't very much clearance as it was. We had to wait a good bit before the big barges and pushboat came out so we could go in. It was before dawn, and a dark night. Luckily not stormy. Things happen quick on the water. Steve visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult. Steve visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty obvious who has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge operator will take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything 'right', she would still have the obligation to avoid a collision. If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. Perhaps. Did he blow said horn? If not or if he didn't see the boat, then I believe he'll have some percentage fault. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
wrote in message ... On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:32:18 -0400, I am Tosk wrote: I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. I thought the front barge was required to have running lights and a flasher. At any rate the sun was up when this happened I've seen zillions of them on the IntraCoastal Waterway without lights. Steve |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
YukonBound wrote:
"Harry" wrote in message m... On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Good point... or maybe they should be restricted in how many barges they can push in a confined space. We have a bit of a similar controversy up here on 'road trains'... that is 18 wheelers pulling two trailers, rather than one. Lots of safety concerns from the public. The two have nothing in common. Barges move at, maybe, 10 knots. At 5:30pm there was enough light to see this thing coming. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"I am Tosk" wrote in message ... In article 1660a4fc-2c0c-46bd-a669-a72a65d5d112 @b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says... On Jun 22, 10:34 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF wrote: Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know. They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice the barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor own and couldn't get it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing in with large commercial traffic. One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. The "I'm a 'professional' driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to get out of my way" attitude. Rules of navigation notwithstanding, it's on his conscience now. Must be a local thing... Most truckdrivers here are pretty good on the road. They hate to crash, slows them down plenty.. -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese! I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I took the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or me situation it was going to be him/her. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Jun 23, 8:06*pm, "mmc" wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in l-september.org... In article 1660a4fc-2c0c-46bd-a669-a72a65d5d112 @b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says... On Jun 22, 10:34 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF wrote: Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know. They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice the barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor own and couldn't get it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing in with large commercial traffic. One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. *The "I'm a 'professional' driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to get out of my way" attitude. *Rules of navigation notwithstanding, it's on his conscience now. Must be a local thing... Most truckdrivers here are pretty good on the road. They hate to crash, slows them down plenty.. -- Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese! I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I took the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or me situation it was going to be him/her. Are you one of those truckers who will run up behind a "4 wheeler" and sit there, tailgating, a foot or two off their bumper, knowing that you don't have a prayer of stopping if traffic slows suddenly? Or one of those who switches into the left passing lane going downhill, knowing full well an uphill is just a few hundred feet ahead, and now you'll just become a moving roadblock, running beside your brethren trucker in the right lane, for the next 5 miles, unwilling to speed up to get by and move back over? Or the trucker that pulls out into a two lane road with traffic approching, knowing it will take you a mile or two of struggling just to barely approach the speed limit, all the while with traffic backing up behind you? And then you wonder why people seemingly cut in front of you? It's because of many trucker's bad driving behavior and general lack of driving courtesy. Besides, if you guys were such great drivers, we wouldn't have to shut down the interstate on a nearly weekly basis because some dumb trucker has spilled his load on one of the off- ramps... you know, the ones that are clearly marked with a sharp turn sign and a low speed limit. I believe that 18 wheelers should be limited to interstates only, and have to off-load their cargo to smaller trucks within a mile or two of the interstate. That would eliminate the severe damage they inflict on the secondary roads, and the havoc they inflict on traffic. If they spill their load, they personally pay for the cleanup. Cause an accident, lose your commercial license *forever*. I do appreciate them hauling our cargo. Just don't act like an asshole and try to kill us while doing it! |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 11:30 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty obvious who has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge operator will take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything 'right', she would still have the obligation to avoid a collision. If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. In the strictest sense, it is in the details. If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is under power. If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for election and blindly run it down. Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the barge. We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty. Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag. Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem with the barge captain. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 7:26 AM, Harry wrote:
On 6/23/10 9:22 AM, Canuck57 wrote: On 23/06/2010 6:26 AM, Harry wrote: On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What size barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge operator could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small boat, it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the direction of that train of barges significantly. Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge. Don't they have spotters and horns? Can't say I have navigated those waters but if they are that long I would expect spotters at least. Well, on a nine barge train, the spotter would have to be on the bow of the most forward barge to do any good. I don't know the answer to your question. I do know, though, that it can be very dangerous to fish in the "ship channel" in the middle of Chesapeake Bay, because huge freighters can "sneak right up" on you if you are not paying close attention. Another dangerous place is near the mouth of the St. Johns River in NE Florida. That river has significant shipping and military traffic. Agreed about fishing or parking in a shipping channel. If you do, you want to be looking out and be sure you can get out of the way quick. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"Canuck57" wrote in message ... On 23/06/2010 11:30 AM, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty obvious who has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge operator will take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything 'right', she would still have the obligation to avoid a collision. If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. In the strictest sense, it is in the details. If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is under power. If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for election and blindly run it down. Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the barge. We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty. Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag. Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem with the barge captain. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. What actually ARE the regs on pleasure craft anchoring in navigable waterways and shipping lanes? Steve |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 8:32 AM, I am Tosk wrote:
In article991b7911-95f9-412a-a5b7- , says... On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. Sounds fly by night. You said no lights? Is that even legal? Try that in Canada with the barges HP rating and so fine city. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 1:12 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jun 23, 12:35 pm, wrote: On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:32:18 -0400, I am Tosk wrote: I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges, it was crazy. I thought the front barge was required to have running lights and a flasher. At any rate the sun was up when this happened Then again, if the fisherman were familiar with the area, then they should have known to watch for barge traffic. Depends, was where they were for shiping? I can't believe barges are considered to be the right of way near anchorage points for example. No mater what their size. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 9:23 AM, W1TEF wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:21:24 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Even more so... "None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at time of accident." Sad. It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call. Well, I do. When underway, you wear one - my boat, my rules. :) Agreed. I even verse it before the ride. It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed seeing this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator might have missed seeing them. It isn't a question of if the tow operator saw them - he couldn't have stopped in time anyway. Like I said elsewhere, if they were fishing on a river bend, they might not have known the tow was there until it was too late. Unfortunately, we can guess all we want - not enough information from the news reports. Yep. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
"Canuck57" wrote in message ... On 23/06/2010 11:30 AM, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty obvious who has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge operator will take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything 'right', she would still have the obligation to avoid a collision. If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. In the strictest sense, it is in the details. If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is under power. If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for election and blindly run it down. Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the barge. We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty. Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag. Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem with the barge captain. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. They were in a channel I believe. Thus, no anchoring allowed. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:59:40 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote: If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. In the strictest sense, it is in the details. If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is under power. If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for election and blindly run it down. Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the barge. We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty. Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag. Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem with the barge captain. What actually ARE the regs on pleasure craft anchoring in navigable waterways and shipping lanes? Probably the most relevant rule is 9(g): g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel. 9(b) is also highly relevant in this case: (b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. However 9(f) may put some responsibility back on the tug: (f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(e). http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...les/Rule09.htm |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 8:59 PM, Steve B wrote:
wrote in message ... On 23/06/2010 11:30 AM, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty obvious who has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge operator will take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything 'right', she would still have the obligation to avoid a collision. If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. In the strictest sense, it is in the details. If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is under power. If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for election and blindly run it down. Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the barge. We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty. Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag. Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem with the barge captain. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. What actually ARE the regs on pleasure craft anchoring in navigable waterways and shipping lanes? Steve Don't know your regs and they can vary, but in Canada it is a no-no to be anchored or adrift in marked or mapped shipping lanes. Can't quote you the reg, not a legal beagle either but that is on the exams here. Lots of right of way questions. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
Tennessee Boaters Killed By Tug and Barges
On 23/06/2010 9:10 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message ... On 23/06/2010 11:30 AM, wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume" wrote: wrote in message ... On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote: wrote in message ... Tragic: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad. Darwinian actually. It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are more manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver flags out, then the barge would be at fault. Would be interesting to see who they blame. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty obvious who has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge operator will take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything 'right', she would still have the obligation to avoid a collision. If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can do to avoid a collision. 9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them. About he can do is blow his horn. In the strictest sense, it is in the details. If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is under power. If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for election and blindly run it down. Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the barge. We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty. Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag. Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem with the barge captain. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. They were in a channel I believe. Thus, no anchoring allowed. Of course anchorage would not be inside the shipping lane. But there are aften anchorages just outside of those lanes. I will wait until we see more detail. But the families aught to get a good legal beegle that know the local and federal laws on this. Could be a juicy law suit. -- The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense. |
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