On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:10:21 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap.

It sounds like you really need a trawler.

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?

Frogwatch wrote in news:3c845541-f764-40e5-
:


That Idlewild boat seems interesting except for the rolling. However,
Aluminum? Can you say dangerous corrosion?
I really do think that for an offshore boat that will be going for a
week or two, sails are necessary as a back-up. Most trawlers get
terrible mpg too. I'd like to see the 40' Diesel Duck designed in a
shoal draft bilge keel version. However, 40' is waaaaay too big for
one person to handle so I'd prefer smaller.

Since you are coastal cruising, "offshore" doen't really have to enter
into your boat selection.
An eye to weather and knowing the ports to duck into is all you need.
Many boats are capable and safe to cruise coastally.
Even open boats if care is taken.
And beyond that, the Bahamas and other near islands are easily reached.
Again an eye to weather, sea conditions and navigation skill is what is
required.
GPS takes much of the work out of navigation, but charts are necessary to
keep you off shoals.
You may not challenge the seas as a bigger boat would, and wait more for
condition improvements, but many do that.
The boat you already have may be the boat you need.
Traditional sailboats can be quite efficient motoring, and as you say,
have sails as a backup.

Regards, Brian

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 12:29 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.

There was a rancher from northwestern Canada who wanted a shoal draft
trawler so he had a "Diesel Duck" like boat designed with a flat
bottom and built from aluminum. It had a draft of just over 3 feet.
He and his sons literally portaged it down shallow Canadian rivers to
the artic ocean, and then motored it around the world. It had a
really small 55 hp diesel that was highly fuel efficient, and gave it
a cruising speed of about 6 knots. It had passive paravane type
stabilizers but still rolled a bit as you can imagine. They put the
boat up for sale after circumnavigating for some small fraction of its
original cost.

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com...ldnonstop.html

Not everyone's idea of a cruising boat, but it can be done.

That Idlewild boat seems interesting except for the rolling. However,
Aluminum? Can you say dangerous corrosion?
I really do think that for an offshore boat that will be going for a
week or two, sails are necessary as a back-up. Most trawlers get
terrible mpg too. I'd like to see the 40' Diesel Duck designed in a
shoal draft bilge keel version. However, 40' is waaaaay too big for
one person to handle so I'd prefer smaller.

Little corrosion problems. A couple zincs etc. All the sal****er aluminum
boats are 5xxx, 6xxx alloy which does a great job with sal****er. Look at
the amount of CG MLB's that are aluminum. Plus a few really nice yachts.
Stevens used mostly aluminum I think.

"Brian Welcott" wrote in message
...
"nom=de=plume" wrote in
:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.


Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...


Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.

Hey, I saw that movie!

The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I never liked engines. Didn't have one certainly when I had the Hobie. We
did beach starts all the time... mostly in fact.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 9:49 am, Brian Welcott wrote:
"nom=de=plume" wrote
:



"Frogwatch" wrote in message
.
..
Even the best sailboat cannot sail much closer than 45 degrees to the
wind so this means at least 1/4 of the time you cannot sail directly
toward your destination (2*45 =90 which is 1/4 of 360). On a loaded
cruising boat, you will be lucky to get to within 55 degrees of the
wind so this eliminates 110 out of 360 degrees or 30%.
Where I live, NO wind at least 1/2 the time leaving only 35% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. About half the time while
trying to cruise, you get short of time so you end up motoring
directly toward your destination getting you down to 17.5% of the
time you can sail directly toward your destination. Around here,
roughly 30% of the time the widn is blowing, it is a thunderstorm or
tropical storm getting you down to somewhere between 10 -13% of the
time you can sail toward your destination. This is why cruising
sailboats need adequate engines.

Interesting numbers. Of course, out here the wind is pretty high I
think. By adequate... what do you mean? It needs to power the boat in
most conditions, but if you're offshore and there's wind, you're
likely sailing right? I can see needing something adequate in the bay
or on the coast. The link I found said the boat had a 50hp, which
seems pretty good for a 42' boat. Perhaps fuel capacity is also an
important issue...

Much of this has to do with your "sailing" personality.
Despite what the OP has said, there are plenty of cruising sailors who
seldom use an engine.
Even a knot of wind will move a boat, and zephyrs of 2-5 knots are often
at work even on flat seas.
Dead calm conditions are not common for cruisers.
The impatient will turn on the engine, others will wait for the wind to
return.
Against the wind tacking is part of sailing, so all these points of
compass wind direction percentages are pretty meaningless.
Unless you are a stinkpotter at heart.
Note how this fellow has managed to work it out that in essence you can
sail only 10-13% of the time.
Yet I know sailors who commonly sail off anchor in almost calm
conditions, and only rarely motor off.
With them, it is motoring that might comprise 10% of their movement.
Sails are not meant to get you from one place to another quickly.
If your goal is to move from port to port expeditiously, you will usually
find yourself motoring.
If you are a "sail" sailor at heart, you will nearly always sail, and the
wind will set your schedule. Impatience is not an option, nor desired.
This is not to say an engine isn't useful, or that one should not use an
engine, or even that mostly motoring a sailboat isn't a valid option.
And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

Regards, Brian

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap. If there was cold
fusion power that would get me from here to there for nearly nothing
I'd use it. Sails are nothing more than a means of propulsion and I
find nothing romantic or even aesthetically pleasing about using
sails. Consequently, I find myself motoring a lot and using sails as
basically a back-up propulsion system. I actually have a life and do
not want to spend it waiting for an occasional zephyr to move me along
at 1.5 kts in the wrong direction.

Hmm... well, to each his own, but I would prefer fewer instances of using a
noisy, polluting engine vs. waiting for wind if at all possible.

I would like a motor sailor but my current boat works well especially
with the larger engine. I get a good motor sailor for nearly nothing
and a boat that sails well when I need it.
MY long experience with cruising the Florida west coast has convinced
me that the best boat for me would be a Troller/sailor like the
"Diesel Duck" line of boats except they have too deep a draft. They
would be ideal for California. I have been tempted to contact the
designer to ask him to design a shoal draft version I could build.


--
Nom=de=Plume

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:10:21 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:52:02 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

I am not a "sailor at heart" but am simply cheap.

It sounds like you really need a trawler.

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?


I can't imagine it.. you've gotta be made of money.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:49:15 +0000 (UTC), Brian Welcott
wrote:

And an engine greatly enhances safety in many circumstances.
What I am suggesting is that you should well know your inclinations
before selecting your boat.
You may be a stinkpotter at heart, and find a trawler more suitable.
There are also motor-sailors available if you want to hedge your bet.

There's some good advice there but also some anti engine inuendo that
we could do without. I've done a lot of sailboat distance racing in
the past so I'm well aware that it is possible to sail 100% of the
time regardless of conditions. Waiting for wind however is not half
the fun and some people find it to be pure torture, especially with
the sails slatting around, the sun beating down relentlessly, and a
cloud of black flys moving in for the kill. It is also a big issue
for people with jobs who have to schedule time off in advance and
return promptly when expected.

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.


You mean like a spinnaker? I think there's another... not a gennaker...
can't think of it. Sort of between the two.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:31:01 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Heh, what makes you think that trawlers are cheap? Have you bought
800 gallons of diesel recently in a foreign country?


I can't imagine it.. you've gotta be made of money.

Not really, just comfortable and frugal with the unnecessary.

Guys I used to work with would joke around and say things like:
"Wayne, you must really be wealthy having all these boats".

I'd always reply that they didn't understand how it works, that I
might really be wealthy if I didn't have any boats at all.

Since you are thinking about buying a boat, the moral of the story is
to be careful what you ask for.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:32:15 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

It is also a fact that the average cruising boat is not set up for
efficient light wind sailing. That requires a lot of attention to
minimizing weight, top notch sails in flawless condition, an
obsession with keeping the bottom/keel/rudder smooth and clean, etc.


You mean like a spinnaker? I think there's another... not a gennaker...
can't think of it. Sort of between the two.

Sailboats that are really serious about performance don't carry just
one spinnaker, more like 3, 4 or 5, one for every possible wind
strength and apparent wind angle. Nothing improves a boats light wind
speed like a spinnaker but the wind has to be from the right
direction, and it takes crew with expertise to set, douse and trim
them. An experienced crew on a racing sailboat, as conditions change,
can set a new spinnaker inside the old one, douse the original, and
continue on with no loss in speed during the maneuver.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:28:13 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I never liked engines.

A lot of sailboat owners feel that way, and it is one of the reasons
that so many sailboats have engine problems. Every boat needs someone
who can empathize with an engine and keep it happy.