OT What is "middle class"
 

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class at
$50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also about
attitude and self dicipline.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Good grief!!! I actually agree with you. Scary.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 11:29 AM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class at
$50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also about
attitude and self dicipline.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Good grief!!! I actually agree with you. Scary.

Amazing.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:05:27 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:



Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

guess the moron forgot:

right wingers blew out the US economy. alan greenspan...disciple of
ayn rand...george bush.

neither was liberal

conservatives can't handle reality

OT What is "middle class"
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.


Perhaps the ones you know, but that's not really typical.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 12:45 PM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:05:27 -0600,
wrote:



Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

guess the moron forgot:

right wingers blew out the US economy. alan greenspan...disciple of
ayn rand...george bush.

neither was liberal

conservatives can't handle reality

See if you can get this:

liberal - loose and free, few rules, can be anyone.

Liberal - calls themselves a liberal/left. Usually dimwit democrat or
LPC (Canada).

conservative - a philosophy of less risk and conservation. Can be anyone.

Conservative - calls themselves conservative/right, usually Republican
or Conservative.

Note the leading letter.

You can be a liberal Republican. And you can be a conservative
Democrat. But the norm is usually the reverse but not always.

Small "C" conservatives are like the pigs that built their homes with
bricks. Solid. Conserved resources conseravtively for years, they
suffer little in bad times.

Small "L" liberals, spend liberally in good times and get wiped out in
bad times because they were not conservatively planning, prefering to be
more liberal in spending.

Get with it. This is the english language.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! Stupid POS. And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease
that is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you, you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter has
a huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 12:45 PM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:05:27 -0600,
wrote:



Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

guess the moron forgot:

right wingers blew out the US economy. alan greenspan...disciple of
ayn rand...george bush.

neither was liberal

conservatives can't handle reality

See if you can get this:

liberal - loose and free, few rules, can be anyone.

Liberal - calls themselves a liberal/left. Usually dimwit democrat or LPC
(Canada).

conservative - a philosophy of less risk and conservation. Can be anyone.

Conservative - calls themselves conservative/right, usually Republican or
Conservative.

Note the leading letter.

You can be a liberal Republican. And you can be a conservative Democrat.
But the norm is usually the reverse but not always.

Small "C" conservatives are like the pigs that built their homes with
bricks. Solid. Conserved resources conseravtively for years, they suffer
little in bad times.

Small "L" liberals, spend liberally in good times and get wiped out in bad
times because they were not conservatively planning, prefering to be more
liberal in spending.

Get with it. This is the english language.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Here's another C - Canuck. Definition: chucklehead.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! Stupid POS. And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease that
is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you, you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter has a
huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Maybe it is your fault. You're the older brother. Keep on ranting about
Obama. I'm sure someone inside your empty head cares.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 1:54 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! Stupid POS. And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease that
is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you, you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter has a
huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Maybe it is your fault. You're the older brother. Keep on ranting about
Obama. I'm sure someone inside your empty head cares.

It was years ago now since I saw the little slug. Had her over for
dinner with our mother, and after dinner I snapped when she grabbed our
limited income 75 year old mothers purse to pilfer money.

I simply said "Mom, I am sorry, I can't watch this any longer. J-------
please get the frac out of this house you Liberal touting blood sucking
immoral POS. Mom shouldn't have to put up with purse raiding and your
blood sucking 'poor me' screw up attitude any longer".

She went off in a fluff, haven't seen her since which suits me fine.

So I guess so. I wasn't will to be abused by a freeloader, and didn't
like the idea of her freeloading on her elderly Mom.

But not my fault. I can't control her, for if I owned her as a slave, I
would ahve it beaten right out of her hide.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:29:47 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:

On 10/04/2010 12:45 PM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:05:27 -0600,
wrote:


conservatives can't handle reality

See if you can get this:

liberal - loose and free, few rules, can be anyone.

conservative: only the middle class has to obey rules

the rules are there to control them and deny them freedom.


Liberal - calls themselves a liberal/left. Usually dimwit democrat or
LPC (Canada).

conservatives: call themselves conservatives, not knowing it's an
oxymoron.


conservative - a philosophy of less risk and conservation. Can be anyone.

conservative: a philosophy of cowardice.




You can be a liberal Republican. And you can be a conservative
Democrat. But the norm is usually the reverse but not always.

Small "C" conservatives are like the pigs that built their homes with
bricks. Solid. Conserved resources conseravtively for years, they
suffer little in bad times.

really? if this is the case

then why did the conservative george bush have to raid the middle
class to save his rich, conservative pals?



Get with it. This is the english language.

let me know when you learn it.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 3:16 PM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:29:47 -0600,
wrote:

On 10/04/2010 12:45 PM, bpuharic wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:05:27 -0600,
wrote:


conservatives can't handle reality

See if you can get this:

liberal - loose and free, few rules, can be anyone.

conservative: only the middle class has to obey rules

the rules are there to control them and deny them freedom.


Liberal - calls themselves a liberal/left. Usually dimwit democrat or
LPC (Canada).

conservatives: call themselves conservatives, not knowing it's an
oxymoron.


conservative - a philosophy of less risk and conservation. Can be anyone.

conservative: a philosophy of cowardice.




You can be a liberal Republican. And you can be a conservative
Democrat. But the norm is usually the reverse but not always.

Small "C" conservatives are like the pigs that built their homes with
bricks. Solid. Conserved resources conseravtively for years, they
suffer little in bad times.

really? if this is the case

then why did the conservative george bush have to raid the middle
class to save his rich, conservative pals?



Get with it. This is the english language.

let me know when you learn it.

Does not mater. With types like you, we know there will be lots of
squids to use.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:54 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle
class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or
the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! Stupid POS. And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease
that
is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you, you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter has
a
huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Maybe it is your fault. You're the older brother. Keep on ranting about
Obama. I'm sure someone inside your empty head cares.

It was years ago now since I saw the little slug. Had her over for dinner
with our mother, and after dinner I snapped when she grabbed our limited
income 75 year old mothers purse to pilfer money.

I simply said "Mom, I am sorry, I can't watch this any longer. J-------
please get the frac out of this house you Liberal touting blood sucking
immoral POS. Mom shouldn't have to put up with purse raiding and your
blood sucking 'poor me' screw up attitude any longer".

She went off in a fluff, haven't seen her since which suits me fine.

So I guess so. I wasn't will to be abused by a freeloader, and didn't
like the idea of her freeloading on her elderly Mom.

But not my fault. I can't control her, for if I owned her as a slave, I
would ahve it beaten right out of her hide.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Wow... you come from quite a family. I feel bad for you now.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:39:47 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:


They will be able to tell stories about seeing the repo man, BMW and X5
come to mind. bpuharic and others like him are destined to be losers.

thanks to conservatives we've already lost

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 3:47 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:54 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle
class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or
the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! Stupid POS. And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease
that
is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you, you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter has
a
huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Maybe it is your fault. You're the older brother. Keep on ranting about
Obama. I'm sure someone inside your empty head cares.

It was years ago now since I saw the little slug. Had her over for dinner
with our mother, and after dinner I snapped when she grabbed our limited
income 75 year old mothers purse to pilfer money.

I simply said "Mom, I am sorry, I can't watch this any longer. J-------
please get the frac out of this house you Liberal touting blood sucking
immoral POS. Mom shouldn't have to put up with purse raiding and your
blood sucking 'poor me' screw up attitude any longer".

She went off in a fluff, haven't seen her since which suits me fine.

So I guess so. I wasn't will to be abused by a freeloader, and didn't
like the idea of her freeloading on her elderly Mom.

But not my fault. I can't control her, for if I owned her as a slave, I
would ahve it beaten right out of her hide.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Wow... you come from quite a family. I feel bad for you now.

Don't. I rose above it. You are your own limitation to life. You
don't know the 1/4 of it, I could write a book on it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:13:01 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:45:01 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

right wingers blew out the US economy. alan greenspan...disciple of
ayn rand...george bush.

With plenty of help from "the left"

really? the left was part of the chicago school?

gee. that's gonna come as news to everyone.


neither was liberal

Nor was Clinton, Greenspan worked for him, what's your point?

and clinton's govt was run by a conservative congress which ran
rampant with chicago school philosophy

you DO know about the chicago school, right?

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:35:22 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:



Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail to
cope and do suicide.

or, if they become conservative, they bomb a federal building


This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease
that is hurting people big time.

except it was caused by right wing conservative economics. and the
economy is growing. not that you keep up with the news


As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you, you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter has
a huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

except the right has already stolen everything the middle class has to
offer:


http://www.tnr.com/blogs/jonathan-chait

The recovery from the 2001 recession basically never produced real
wage gains -- essentially all the gains went into corporate profits
and gains for the very rich

OT What is "middle class"
 

On 10/04/2010 6:19 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:33:47 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:13:01 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:45:01 -0400, wrote:

right wingers blew out the US economy. alan greenspan...disciple of
ayn rand...george bush.

With plenty of help from "the left"

really? the left was part of the chicago school?

gee. that's gonna come as news to everyone.


neither was liberal

Nor was Clinton, Greenspan worked for him, what's your point?

and clinton's govt was run by a conservative congress which ran
rampant with chicago school philosophy

you DO know about the chicago school, right?

I basically agree with you but the same voodoo economics model that HW
Bush criticized in 1984 was the way they ALL did business since.
My only complaint is you keep saying this was just a right wing plot.
Both sides embraced it for 25 years until the whole thing collapsed in
on itself.
I have posted the vote several times here but the deregulation bill HR
5477 most responsible for this disaster was opposed by 51 conservative
republicans and 9 democrats.

But it made debt cheaper to appease debtors including the congress.
Didn't mater the massive ensuing debt (personal, private and public)
would someday become a huge issue.

Well the day has arrived and Obama is going to solve a debt problem with
more debt. Forgive my contempt to Obama, he is an idiot if he thinks he
can spend america out of debt.

--
The Liberal way, take no responsibility.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:19:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:33:47 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:13:01 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:45:01 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

right wingers blew out the US economy. alan greenspan...disciple of
ayn rand...george bush.

With plenty of help from "the left"

really? the left was part of the chicago school?

gee. that's gonna come as news to everyone.


neither was liberal

Nor was Clinton, Greenspan worked for him, what's your point?

and clinton's govt was run by a conservative congress which ran
rampant with chicago school philosophy

you DO know about the chicago school, right?

I basically agree with you but the same voodoo economics model that HW
Bush criticized in 1984 was the way they ALL did business since.
My only complaint is you keep saying this was just a right wing plot.

the left was never a big fan of the chicago school.
stiglitz..krugman..both nobel prize winners...didn't give it much
credence

Both sides embraced it for 25 years until the whole thing collapsed in
on itself.

yep. the free market fundamentalist theology grabbed both the middle
and the right which ran this country since reagan.

I have posted the vote several times here but the deregulation bill HR
5477 most responsible for this disaster was opposed by 51 conservative
republicans and 9 democrats.

and it was passed only after phil gramm threatened to filibuster it
after he added his 262 page deregulation of CDO's which caused the
meltdown.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:31:31 -0600, Canuck57
wrote:



But it made debt cheaper to appease debtors including the congress.
Didn't mater the massive ensuing debt (personal, private and public)
would someday become a huge issue.

uh, no. what it did do was taken the cuffs off the super rich to allow
them to steal even more than they had, under the guise of the 'free
market'.

Well the day has arrived and Obama is going to solve a debt problem with
more debt. Forgive my contempt to Obama, he is an idiot if he thinks he
can spend america out of debt.

except, of course, the economy is growing...fast. both larry kudlow
and 'business week' have articles supporting this. so it seems you CAN
spend your way out of debt.

the right wing simply has no idea about how economics works

notice the right wing bitcher has no solution to the mess the right
created?

OT What is "middle class"
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 3:47 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:54 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. I have seen people live middle
class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. It is
also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k
but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. My little sister is like that. When life was good with two
good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. Set her back 30 years financially. But it is all
our
fault. Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or
the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! Stupid POS.
And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail
to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease
that
is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you,
you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. A conservative self starter
has
a
huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Maybe it is your fault. You're the older brother. Keep on ranting about
Obama. I'm sure someone inside your empty head cares.

It was years ago now since I saw the little slug. Had her over for
dinner
with our mother, and after dinner I snapped when she grabbed our limited
income 75 year old mothers purse to pilfer money.

I simply said "Mom, I am sorry, I can't watch this any longer. J-------
please get the frac out of this house you Liberal touting blood sucking
immoral POS. Mom shouldn't have to put up with purse raiding and your
blood sucking 'poor me' screw up attitude any longer".

She went off in a fluff, haven't seen her since which suits me fine.

So I guess so. I wasn't will to be abused by a freeloader, and didn't
like the idea of her freeloading on her elderly Mom.

But not my fault. I can't control her, for if I owned her as a slave, I
would ahve it beaten right out of her hide.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


Wow... you come from quite a family. I feel bad for you now.

Don't. I rose above it. You are your own limitation to life. You don't
know the 1/4 of it, I could write a book on it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.


I'm sorry, but I don't see it. What I do see is a paranoid, fearful guy, who
doesn't like anyone who's even slightly different.

--
Nom=de=Plume

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:28:18 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 20:35:04 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

I have posted the vote several times here but the deregulation bill HR
5477 most responsible for this disaster was opposed by 51 conservative
republicans and 9 democrats.

and it was passed only after phil gramm threatened to filibuster it
after he added his 262 page deregulation of CDO's which caused the
meltdown.

That does not explain 100 senators voting FOR it.

sure it does. it was passed on 12/15 late in the evening. a 262 page
addendum to an 11,000 page bill was not going to attract attention, as
gramm calculated.

The language was not Gramms either. It came from a house bill H.R.5660
that was cosponsored by New York rep John LaFalce.

newsflash:

gramm was a senator. representatives dont get a vote in the senate.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:07:06 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 18:49:10 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

That does not explain 100 senators voting FOR it.

sure it does. it was passed on 12/15 late in the evening. a 262 page
addendum to an 11,000 page bill was not going to attract attention, as
gramm calculated.

Bull****, Why don't you go see the debate about adding that amendment.
In fact you said he threatened a filibuster, you can't have it both
ways. I think you are just quoting someone you heard on Olbermann.
This is a public record.

ROFLMAO!! how many people do you have to convince regarding a
filibuster? 1? 2? not many..


The language was not Gramms either. It came from a house bill H.R.5660
that was cosponsored by New York rep John LaFalce.

newsflash:

gramm was a senator. representatives dont get a vote in the senate.

Flash right back at you, this was a house bill that was amended to the
house bill HR4577 that was passed by the senate.

irrelevant. you said it was language in the house. the house does not
vote in the senate. house language is irrelevant

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:06:48 -0400, wrote:



I said it was language from the HOUSE BILL. (5660) and that was
amended to another HOUSE BILL (4577) in the senate.
The senate did not write ANY of this bill the house did.
They just passed it with unanimous consent (voice vote).
Check it out.

gee. the senate and house tried to pass healthcare this year. how'd
that work out? it took ALOT of finagling...but gramm slid his
distortion of the free market in under the radar, a fact you refuse to
even admit

It would really be a lot better if you just learned your way around
Thomas so you could do it yourself instead of just quoting liberal
magazines and articles you find on a google search.

i suggest you learn some history instead of relying on limballs to do
your homework for you

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:10:22 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:24:37 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

gee. the senate and house tried to pass healthcare this year. how'd
that work out? it took ALOT of finagling...but gramm slid his
distortion of the free market in under the radar, a fact you refuse to
even admit


Because it is total bull****., I did just look it up. I was wrong, the
actual house bill that was included in HR 4577 was HR4541 and the
white house came out in favor of it on October 19.

and yet gramm sneaked his thieve's full employment act into the bill
on december 15...2 months after the white house came out in support of
it.


.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:15:12 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:24:37 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

i suggest you learn some history instead of relying on limballs to do
your homework for you


This is history

"The Administration strongly supports the version of H.R. 4541,


gramm's addendum to the bill was introduced on 12/15...in the
senate..and it stripped the SEC of the power to regulate
derivatives...the very derivatives that would blow up the economy in
2007

the house doesn't vote in the senate. you dont even know there are 2
chambers of congress...


It is important that this legislation be enacted this year because of
the meaningful steps it would take in helping to: promote innovation;
enhance the transparency and efficiency of derivative markets;

and gramm made sure that didn't happen

maintain the competitiveness of U.S. businesses and markets; and,
potentially, reduce systemic risk. H.R. 4541 would accomplish these
goals while assuring adequate customer protection for small investors
and protecting the integrity of the underlying securities and futures
markets. A failure to modernize the Nation's framework for OTC
derivatives during this legislative session would deprive American
markets and businesses of these important benefits and could result in
the movement of these markets to overseas locations with more updated
regulatory regimes. The Administration looks forward to working with
members of Congress to improve certain aspects of the bill as it
continues through the legislative process."

William J Clinton October 19,2000

guess you dont own a calendar

december comes AFTER october

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Apr 10, 8:16*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Canuck57" wrote in message

...



On 10/04/2010 3:47 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
*wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:54 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
* wrote in message
...
On 10/04/2010 1:11 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:
* *wrote in message
.. .
On 10/04/2010 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:42:51 -0600,
wrote:

On 09/04/2010 11:33 PM, wrote:

Is that $125k plus as some here say or is it less?

Depends on how you manage money. *I have seen people live middle
class
at $50k and others broke at $125K.

There is more to being middle class than what you make. *It is
also
about attitude and self dicipline.

I agree with that. The most "broke" people I know make over $100k
but
they spend borrowed money like they make a million.

Yep. *My little sister is like that. *When life was good with two
good
jobs they leveraged up to the 9's. *We told them, now is the time to
solidify that wealth and pay off debt, not create more of it.

Now getting close to 50, and a huge mortgage on a dump when the last
recession hit. *Set her back 30 years financially. *But it is all
our
fault. *Typical liberal screwup will be working for a long time yet.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

No. It's her fault. But, feel free to blame the gov't (or liberals or
the
Ghost of Christmas Past). The bottom line is that she screwed up. It
happens.

She blames me because I didn't screw up like she did! *Stupid POS..
And
she blames C/conservatives as they should bail her out.

It happens a lot.

Raising kids liberally for example, they learn little of conservative
dicipline. *Then when 25 or so, one loser job after anotehr they fail
to
cope and do suicide.

This depression goes far beyond just the mechanics of government tax,
banking and corruption bailouts, the liberalism has become a disease
that
is hurting people big time.

As when uncle Obama runs out of cash or hasn't gotten around to you,
you
will be one disappointed liberal loser. *A conservative self starter
has
a
huge advantage over a entitlist liberal at the moment, but the liberal
wants to steal it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

Maybe it is your fault. You're the older brother. Keep on ranting about
Obama. I'm sure someone inside your empty head cares.

It was years ago now since I saw the little slug. *Had her over for
dinner
with our mother, and after dinner I snapped when she grabbed our limited
income 75 year old mothers purse to pilfer money.

I simply said "Mom, I am sorry, I can't watch this any longer. *J-------
please get the frac out of this house you Liberal touting blood sucking
immoral POS. *Mom shouldn't have to put up with purse raiding and your
blood sucking 'poor me' screw up attitude any longer".

She went off in a fluff, haven't seen her since which suits me fine.

So I guess so. *I wasn't will to be abused by a freeloader, and didn't
like the idea of her freeloading on her elderly Mom.

But not my fault. *I can't control her, for if I owned her as a slave, I
would ahve it beaten right out of her hide.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

Wow... you come from quite a family. I feel bad for you now.

Don't. *I rose above it. *You are your own limitation to life. *You don't
know the 1/4 of it, I could write a book on it.

--
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.

I'm sorry, but I don't see it. What I do see is a paranoid, fearful guy, who
doesn't like anyone who's even slightly different.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Then you've mistaken Canuck for Krause.

OT What is "middle class"
 

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:15:12 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:24:37 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

i suggest you learn some history instead of relying on limballs to do
your homework for you


This is history

"The Administration strongly supports the version of H.R. 4541,


gramm's addendum to the bill was introduced on 12/15...in the
senate..and it stripped the SEC of the power to regulate
derivatives...the very derivatives that would blow up the economy in
2007

the house doesn't vote in the senate. you dont even know there are 2
chambers of congress...


It is important that this legislation be enacted this year because of
the meaningful steps it would take in helping to: promote innovation;
enhance the transparency and efficiency of derivative markets;

and gramm made sure that didn't happen

maintain the competitiveness of U.S. businesses and markets; and,
potentially, reduce systemic risk. H.R. 4541 would accomplish these
goals while assuring adequate customer protection for small investors
and protecting the integrity of the underlying securities and futures
markets. A failure to modernize the Nation's framework for OTC
derivatives during this legislative session would deprive American
markets and businesses of these important benefits and could result in
the movement of these markets to overseas locations with more updated
regulatory regimes. The Administration looks forward to working with
members of Congress to improve certain aspects of the bill as it
continues through the legislative process."

William J Clinton October 19,2000

guess you dont own a calendar

december comes AFTER october

Not sure which is more amusing.
Mr. BP denying that Clinton and the Democrats were whores to Wall
Street, or Mr. Gfretwell blaming the country's economic woes on Clinton.
And Mr. BP bemoans his 401k losses, while not seeing the need to keep
401k's inflated was what drove both Democrats and Republicans to whore
for Wall Street.
There is a great conflict there.
Perhaps a discussion about jobs and production, which are the engine of
the economy, would be more useful.
But that would take some thought beyond simple name-calling and endless
cites of Congressional votes.
Each time I sell a pair of shoes, I ponder the question of jobs.
Sure, I make a sale and do my part. But quite frankly I consider the
production chain and the jobs in the chain.
Selling a pair of Asian-made shoes might get me a sale, but I wonder
about sales lost due to those shoe-making jobs not being local.
I've notice quite a drop in sales recently, and find more and more
customers not wanting to keep their old shoes, because they are worn
more than ever before.
A rough estimate is that 30-50% of my customers discard the shoes they
are wearing when they leave my shop wearing new shoes, because the old
shoes have become unserviceable.
It used to be about 10%.
Troubling.

Peter

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:33:29 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:18:56 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

and yet gramm sneaked his thieve's full employment act into the bill
on december 15...2 months after the white house came out in support of


You really have to make up your mind, either he "sneaked:" this in or
he threatened a filibuster and strong armed it in.
You can't have it both ways.
The fact is the language still came from the house bill and the last I
looked, Gramm was NOT in the house at the time.
He must have had somebody else working with him.

so gramm was not in the house...yet you say the house voted this bill
and gramm voted for it in the house??

do you know the senate is not the house of representatives?


The fact is, everybody who voted for this bill knew what it was and
Clinton, who signed it into law knew what it was.

well, no. gramm ammended the bill on 12/15. it was a 262 page
addendum to an 11,000 page bill. do you think anyone paid attention?

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 07:30:34 -0500, "Peter (Yes, that one)"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:15:12 -0400, wrote:


gramm's addendum to the bill was introduced on 12/15...in the
senate..and it stripped the SEC of the power to regulate
derivatives...the very derivatives that would blow up the economy in
2007

Not sure which is more amusing.
Mr. BP denying that Clinton and the Democrats were whores to Wall
Street, or Mr. Gfretwell blaming the country's economic woes on Clinton.
And Mr. BP bemoans his 401k losses, while not seeing the need to keep
401k's inflated was what drove both Democrats and Republicans to whore
for Wall Street.

irrelevant. the right destroyed pension plans, unions, and removed
ANY hope of retirement for all americans. and the whores were alan
greenspan, milton friedman, f a hayek and the 'chicago school' who
were free market fundamentalists.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:41:41 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 07:30:34 -0500, "Peter (Yes, that one)"
wrote:

Not sure which is more amusing.
Mr. BP denying that Clinton and the Democrats were whores to Wall
Street, or Mr. Gfretwell blaming the country's economic woes on Clinton.
And Mr. BP bemoans his 401k losses, while not seeing the need to keep
401k's inflated was what drove both Democrats and Republicans to whore
for Wall Street.

I am not blaming Clinton alone but agreeing with you that they are ALL
whores to wall street.
BP seems to believe the democrats have totally clean hands in all of
this.

nope. the real thieves were the free market fundamentalists on BOTH
sides who thought capitalism, unregulated and unrestrainted, would
solve all problems.

the left at least never believed this story. the right went from free
market fundies to free market anarchists who thought ANY regulation
was evil

The fact remains it was 51 republicans and 9 democrats who had
the balls to vote against this bill. Clinton had the power to try to
stop it but not the votes to sustain a veto because too many democrats
supported it. He did not even complain a little. He told us how great
it was and signed it.

11,000 pages...and gramm added 262 pages on 12/15. right before the
xmas holiday.

no one reads a bill this large. gramm knew that. it was a procedural
ploy for his friends, just like he now works for UBS

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:34:51 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:21:02 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

the house doesn't vote in the senate. you dont even know there are 2
chambers of congress...



The senate can not send a bill to the president until the house votes
on it.


and gramm is not in the house

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:28:33 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:51:49 -0400, bpuharic wrote:


so gramm was not in the house...yet you say the house voted this bill
and gramm voted for it in the house??

do you know the senate is not the house of representatives?



I also know that this bill came from the house, not the senate.

gramm wasn't in the house. according to the US constitution, there are
2 houses in congress.


The fact is, everybody who voted for this bill knew what it was and
Clinton, who signed it into law knew what it was.

well, no. gramm ammended the bill on 12/15. it was a 262 page
addendum to an 11,000 page bill. do you think anyone paid attention?

That addendum was H..R.5660 (look it up)
Do you really think nobody knew about that?

yeah. i think no one knew about it.

How about the house members who wrote it?

gramm was in the senate. and it was an addendum to an 11,000 page
bill. which actually happens all the time. rarely with such
consequences

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:40:13 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:38:34 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

That addendum was H..R.5660 (look it up)
Do you really think nobody knew about that?

yeah. i think no one knew about it.

How about the house members who wrote it?

gramm was in the senate. and it was an addendum to an 11,000 page
bill. which actually happens all the time. rarely with such
consequences

That is just buill****. Most of the offending language was actually in
H.R. 4541, a house bill that Bill Clinton actively supported in
October.

how could he support it iff

1. gramm is in the senate, not the house?
2. gramm didnt introduce it until 12/15?



You can spin that any way you like and I agree 100% Gramm was carrying
the water for this in the senate but it was a HOUSE BILL. that was
written in June and stripped down in December excluding some of the
original language
There was nothing really new here that I can find.

and nowhere does it strip the SEC of regulatory power..THAT provision
was added by gramm on 12/15

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 00:13:47 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:48:43 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

and nowhere does it strip the SEC of regulatory power..THAT provision
was added by gramm on 12/15

That is all in HOUSE bill H.R.5660, written by Tom Ewing. Look it up.
Do I have to post the whole damned thing?

then, one wonders, why did gramm add it at the last minute? if it was
available in october, why did gramm wait until the christmas recess to
add it?

and, of course, gramm is in the senate so he has zip to do with the
house...

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:03:19 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:10:19 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 00:13:47 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:48:43 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

and nowhere does it strip the SEC of regulatory power..THAT provision
was added by gramm on 12/15

That is all in HOUSE bill H.R.5660, written by Tom Ewing. Look it up.
Do I have to post the whole damned thing?

then, one wonders, why did gramm add it at the last minute? if it was
available in october, why did gramm wait until the christmas recess to
add it?

and, of course, gramm is in the senate so he has zip to do with the
house...


What part of "H.R.5660" don't you understand?

tell you what. why not check what a right winger says about how much
congress understands its bills, OK?

the 'volokh conspiracy' a blog of right wing lawyers, has a nice post
about how much congress understands the legislation it passes:

http://volokh.com/2010/04/13/did-con...ill-it-passed/

which is my contention all along. congress cant even take care of
ITSELF reading this stuff yet it's your contention they understand
every word in every bill they pass.

it's obvious you're wrong

as to HR 5660...show me where SENATOR gramm voted on it, OK?


I know you have this story stuck in your mind and nothing will change
it so go on with your fantasy. I am done with this. It was 10 years
ago. Gramm is gone, Clinton is boating with the Bush family and the
wall street crooks responsible for this are still working for Obama.

actually not. gramm is not in the obama adminstration

Get over it.

What is happening in congress today? If Obama had not wasted all his
political capital on the "insurance company and medical conglomerate
relief act" this year he might have actually passed some meaningful
regulation. Instead of that he has turned his attention to "cap and
tax" that will put more Americans out of work and create another huge
market in worthless paper.

gee. he passed healthcare reform. guess you right wingers don't pay
attention to the news.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:26:00 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:09:57 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

it's obvious you're wrong

as to HR 5660...show me where SENATOR gramm voted on it, OK?

Then how was it all his fault?

You keep trying to have it both ways.

If you are really saying Gramm was capable of single handedly tricking
292 house reps, 99 senators and Bill Clinton then we deserve what we
got. They were all too stupid to have their jobs.

it happens. it j ust did. i gave you the reference. no one's going to
read a 262 page addendum to an 11,000 page bill on 12/15.

OT What is "middle class"
 

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:18:09 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:08:04 -0400, bpuharic wrote:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:26:00 -0400, wrote:


If you are really saying Gramm was capable of single handedly tricking
292 house reps, 99 senators and Bill Clinton then we deserve what we
got. They were all too stupid to have their jobs.

it happens. it j ust did. i gave you the reference. no one's going to
read a 262 page addendum to an 11,000 page bill on 12/15.

What you didn't explain and even said could not happen was how he
managed to get his 282 page addendum (AKA H.R 5660) introduced through
the house. He even managed to forge 5 representative's names on that
bill.

he's a senator. i guess you don't know the constitution. house bills
often dont even make it to the senate. you keep saying that senators
read every word of a bill. i just gave you a reference showing they
dont.

interesting.


It ends
"Senator LUGAR and Senator GRAMM have worked tirelessly in the
Senate, with the House, and with the Administration to make this bill
possible."

the bill was 11,000 pages long.

gramm's addendum...which you refuse to admit existed...was introduced
right before the bill was voted on, on 12/15.

senators dont even know their own healthcare. and you just stroll
along, pretending that gramm was a representative and voted in the
senate.



There is your cookie.