Canuck57 wrote:
On 26/12/2009 12:47 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
"John wrote in message
news
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:44:40 -0500, Gene
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:56:19 -0500, John
wrote:

However,
I believe you should have the choice.

What choice? Dying with dignity or being kept alive, with
extraordinary means, in a persistent vegetative state? Indefinitely?

And, there's always the chance
that the extra little amount of medical care would add another ten
fruitful years to your life.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this. Let's recap, per your
link:

".... has earned a reputation as a place where doctors will go to
virtually any length and expense to try to save a patient's life. "

This sounds great until you have to admit that an insurance policy
isn't an unlimited blank check. Sooner or later, whoever is "the deep
pockets" is going to start "rationing health care." But let's get real
and evaluate the next sentence.....

"If you come into this hospital, we're not going to let you die...."

Holy Crap, what incredible impertinence! That is just NOT their
decision. But wait, if you are in a persistent vegetative state, and
they keep your heart beating by extraordinary means..... uh..... you
haven't "died" yet..... right?

At least not until the money runs out and they have to start
rationing...... trust me.... there is NO FREE LUNCH.... and this has
NOTHING to do with humanitarian feelings toward you.... this is a
cold, hard, business decision.....

You missed this:

"Take the case of Salah Putrus, who at age 71 had a long history of
heart failure.

After repeated visits to his local hospital near Burbank, Calif., Mr.
Putrus was referred to U.C.L.A. this year to be evaluated for a heart
transplant.

Some other medical centers might have considered Mr. Putrus too old
for the surgery. But U.C.L.A.'s attitude was "let's see what we can do
for him," said his physician there, Dr. Tamara Horwich.

Indeed, Mr. Putrus recalled, Dr. Horwich and her colleagues "did every
test." They changed his medicines to reduce the amount of water he was
retaining. They even removed some teeth that could be a potential
source of infection.

His condition improved so much that more than six months later, Mr.
Putrus has remained out of the hospital and is no longer considered in
active need of a transplant. "
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

Hell of a difference between 71 and 85 or 90 years old. A 94 year old
with
congestive heart failure and you are going to spend a 100k or so to
prolong
life a month?

So who gets to play god?

I am sure your health care would be cheaper if you were to sign a
binding orrevokable document that says you will never require an
operation over $100K and they are under no obligation to provided it.
You cannot sue, whine, bitch, contemplate or whatever when your term is
up. This is irrevocable in your lifetime.

Don't worry, Americans just subscribed to this. Read up on how
government saves on health care. Old farts looking for a free lunch,
guess what, you might find you are too old to qualify for the by-pass or
whatever....

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Canada.pdf

A lot of truth under this title:

Rationing : “Everything is Free but Nothing is Readily Available”
(Frogue et al, 2001)



obama has not yet appointed a god czar. We are anxioully awaiting his
choice.

On Dec 26, 2:47*pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:
"John H" wrote in message

news




On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:44:40 -0500, Gene
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:56:19 -0500, John H
wrote:

However,
I believe you should have the choice.

What choice? Dying with dignity or being kept alive, with
extraordinary means, in a persistent vegetative state? Indefinitely?

And, there's always the chance
that the extra little amount of medical care would add another ten
fruitful years to your life.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this. Let's recap, per your
link:

".... has earned a reputation as a place where doctors will go to
virtually any length and expense to try to save a patient's life. "

This sounds great until you have to admit that an insurance policy
isn't an unlimited blank check. Sooner or later, whoever is "the deep
pockets" is going to start "rationing health care." But let's get real
and evaluate the next sentence.....

"If you come into this hospital, we're not going to let you die...."

Holy Crap, what incredible impertinence! That is just NOT their
decision. But wait, if you are in a persistent vegetative state, and
they keep your heart beating by extraordinary means..... uh..... you
haven't "died" yet..... right?

At least not until the money runs out and they have to start
rationing...... trust me.... there is NO FREE LUNCH.... and this has
NOTHING to do with humanitarian feelings toward you.... this is a
cold, hard, business decision.....

You missed this:

"Take the case of Salah Putrus, who at age 71 had a long history of
heart failure.

After repeated visits to his local hospital near Burbank, Calif., Mr.
Putrus was referred to U.C.L.A. this year to be evaluated for a heart
transplant.

Some other medical centers might have considered Mr. Putrus too old
for the surgery. But U.C.L.A.'s attitude was "let's see what we can do
for him," said his physician there, Dr. Tamara Horwich.

Indeed, Mr. Putrus recalled, Dr. Horwich and her colleagues "did every
test." They changed his medicines to reduce the amount of water he was
retaining. They even removed some teeth that could be a potential
source of infection.

His condition improved so much that more than six months later, Mr.
Putrus has remained out of the hospital and is no longer considered in
active need of a transplant. "
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

Hell of a difference between 71 and 85 or 90 years old. *A 94 year old with
congestive heart failure and you are going to spend a 100k or so to prolong
life a month?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, and that's just because it's Obama's plan. If GWB had of done the
same (as with counseling sick vets) John would have uttered nary a
word.

On Dec 26, 4:21*pm, Jim wrote:
Canuck57 wrote:
On 26/12/2009 12:47 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
"John *wrote in message
news On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:44:40 -0500, Gene
*wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:56:19 -0500, John
wrote:

However,
I believe you should have the choice.

What choice? Dying with dignity or being kept alive, with
extraordinary means, in a persistent vegetative state? Indefinitely?

And, there's always the chance
that the extra little amount of medical care would add another ten
fruitful years to your life.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this. Let's recap, per your
link:

".... has earned a reputation as a place where doctors will go to
virtually any length and expense to try to save a patient's life. "

This sounds great until you have to admit that an insurance policy
isn't an unlimited blank check. Sooner or later, whoever is "the deep
pockets" is going to start "rationing health care." But let's get real
and evaluate the next sentence.....

"If you come into this hospital, we're not going to let you die...."

Holy Crap, what incredible impertinence! That is just NOT their
decision. But wait, if you are in a persistent vegetative state, and
they keep your heart beating by extraordinary means..... uh..... you
haven't "died" yet..... right?

At least not until the money runs out and they have to start
rationing...... trust me.... there is NO FREE LUNCH.... and this has
NOTHING to do with humanitarian feelings toward you.... this is a
cold, hard, business decision.....

You missed this:

"Take the case of Salah Putrus, who at age 71 had a long history of
heart failure.

After repeated visits to his local hospital near Burbank, Calif., Mr.
Putrus was referred to U.C.L.A. this year to be evaluated for a heart
transplant.

Some other medical centers might have considered Mr. Putrus too old
for the surgery. But U.C.L.A.'s attitude was "let's see what we can do
for him," said his physician there, Dr. Tamara Horwich.

Indeed, Mr. Putrus recalled, Dr. Horwich and her colleagues "did every
test." They changed his medicines to reduce the amount of water he was
retaining. They even removed some teeth that could be a potential
source of infection.

His condition improved so much that more than six months later, Mr.
Putrus has remained out of the hospital and is no longer considered in
active need of a transplant. "
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

Hell of a difference between 71 and 85 or 90 years old. *A 94 year old
with
congestive heart failure and you are going to spend a 100k or so to
prolong
life a month?

So who gets to play god?

I am sure your health care would be cheaper if you were to sign a
binding orrevokable document that says you will never require an
operation over $100K and they are under no obligation to provided it.
You cannot sue, whine, bitch, contemplate or whatever when your term is
up. *This is irrevocable in your lifetime.

Don't worry, Americans just subscribed to this. *Read up on how
government saves on health care. *Old farts looking for a free lunch,
guess what, you might find you are too old to qualify for the by-pass or
whatever....

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Canada.pdf

A lot of truth under this title:

Rationing : �Everything is Free but Nothing is Readily Available�
(Frogue et al, 2001)

obama has not yet appointed a god czar. We are anxioully awaiting his
choice.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hey, Ronnie Raygun had a clairavoyant czar so why in hell not?

On Dec 26, 3:15*pm, Canuck57 wrote:
On 26/12/2009 12:50 PM, Gene wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 23:17:46 -0600,
wrote:

Our
medical technology sector, already top of the world, could provide export
dollars.

Good point, but we are so ridiculously overpriced, nobody is
interested.... unless the devalued dollar is greatly in their favor.

Americans are pouring out of the country for affordable medical care.
Destinations include Israel, Jordan, UAE, Brazil, Canada, Mexico,
Panama, China, Hong Kong, India, New Zealand, Singapore, Thailand and
others....

American's don't come to Canada for government health care, if they did
they would be sadly disappointed.

Canadians often go to Costa Rica but hear Panama is increasingly better.

Lemme see. You whine about what's happening in the U.S., you whine
about what's happening in Canada, where you going next?

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:48:15 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Thunder, they're really embarassed by Palin... the normal, sane ones. The
ones who think she's actually presidential material are not normal. It
really ****es them off (the latter), who can't understand why normal folks
aren't willing to follow them down the path to destruction.

If the jobs situation turns around before the next Congressional election,
the Dems will likely increase their lead in the House and perhaps even the
Senate. If the economy continues to rebound, Obama will be reelected in
another landslide. So far, I haven't seen a viable presidential-level
Rep.,
but of course it's way early.

I think the GOP is well placed to take the Senate back in 2010 and
make a dent in the house majority. People will be going to the polls
just about the time the 2011 health care options period closes and
people will still be stinging from the sticker shock of the inevitable
increases that will be here from "free health care".
I am sure the deficit will be going up more and employment will still
be grim. We are not going to replace all those UAW jobs and
construction will still be dead. The "commercial construction" shoe is
just starting to drop. All those new strip malls they built to serve
the houses they didn't sell are sitting empty.
It will be a target rich environment.
The real question is whether they can soften this whacko position they
seem to be taking with Palin, Beck and Limbaugh. The winners will
probably be the ones who can stay fiscally conservative but distance
themselves from the cliff some have been leaping off.
The problem I see is they have not really found a voice that isn't
simply a huckster, making money off of the vacuum in the party
leadership.


How so? Which states/seats do you think are borderline? The Dems would have
to lose quite a few, and the Senate is typically pretty stable.

There's no "free health care" in the current or expected bill, so that's
just your musing or right-wing fear-induced.

The deficit isn't a bread and butter issue with most people. You're talking
about the budget deficit and not the trade deficit right? Just checking.

There's no way in my view that they can "soften" the wacko view. Wacko is
wacko. Most people don't listen to their lies, although a big number do,
unfortunately. Not sure what cliff you're referring to..

Jobs will be an issue. If they continue to turn around, then the Dems don't
have much to worry about.

Totally agree with the huckster comment. I don't see anyone out there who
truly represents a thinking Republican party voter.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:15:52 -0700, Canuck57 wrote:

On 26/12/2009 2:08 PM, RLM wrote:

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

Churchill was a wise man. Never saw that written so well.

John understands socialism so well. He was a paid member of the largest
socialist organisation in the country for years and after retirement he
joined another socialist organisation, teacher.

Churchill's just dead.

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:02:00 -0600, thunder
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:54:54 -0500, John H wrote:


"His boy?" I think you mean *our* President. You can live in denial,
but I'll point out Obama's main legislative agenda, health care reform,
looks to be on track for passage. The recession is over and jobs *will*
rebound. Not at all bad for his *first* year in office. I'm thinking
Obama is becoming unstoppable.

As for Palin, I was recently talking to a diehard Republican who is
convinced she is working for the Democrats. In his opinion, nothing
else explains the damage she is doing the Republican Party.

Obama gets my vote as Messiah of the year! Your boy can do no wrong.

http://tinyurl.com/y8ov56y

Yup, it sure is starting to look that way. Sure does suck to be a
Republican these days, doesn't it?

No worse than it sucks being a Democrat. At least I can say I didn't
vote for him.
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:59:00 -0800 (PST), Jack
wrote:

On Dec 26, 10:54*am, Loogypicker wrote:
On Dec 26, 10:15*am, "D.Duck" wrote:





Loogypicker wrote:
On Dec 26, 8:34 am, John H wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:21:51 -0500, Jim wrote:
Harry wrote:
On 12/26/09 12:20 AM, Steve B wrote:
*wrote in message
om...
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:51 -0800, "Steve B"
*wrote:
"John *wrote in message
news:b5laj5hrbqgpego8r6tiulf9jca9k39aig@4ax .com...
...Change is coming!
The NYTimes is giving seniors a Christmas present to ponder.
http://tinyurl.com/yl9vumo
"Peter R. Orszag, the White House budget director and a disciple of
the Dartmouth data, has noted. "We can no longer afford an overall
health care system in which the thought is more is always better,
because it's not.""
Another - "Because Dartmouth's analysis focuses solely on patients who
have died, a case like Mr. Putrus's would not show up in its data.
That is why critics say Dartmouth's approach takes an overly
pessimistic view of medicine: if you consider only the patients who
die, there is really no way to know whether it makes sense to spend
more on one case than another."
A preview of things to come?
--
Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!
John H
If they were serious about saving money, wouldn't they just all get
on a
conference call instead of flying their jets to Denmark to schmooze
around?
Barry has some expensive tastes, and so does Michelle.
Steve
Jon Stewart pointed out that these climate savers managed to lease
every limo in western europe, some couriered in from as far away as
Germany so nobody had to share a ride.
Well, you can't have people who are interested in saving the planet
have to
ride two to a limo or two to a jet, now can you. *It's just not done.
I wonder how many heating oil tanks could have been filled for what was
spent on that extravaganza.
BTW, what's a caviar wedge? *I understand they ate a lot of caviar. *That
would have bought a lot of turkeys at the shelters.
I bet they had expensive cognac and real Cuban cigars, too.
Nothing too good for our tax dollars.
Steve
Does anyone recall "stevie" objecting when bush was spending like a
drunken sailor, and cutting taxes for the wealthy at the same time?
Hypocrisy, thy real name is republican/conservative. Nothing is piled
higher than republican/conservative b.s.
Nothing except the burgeoning public debt.
Did someone justify Obama's spending using Bush as a rationale?

How silly.
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ever hear of the word "precedent"? It's used legally binding all of
the time.

Can you clarify?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes:

prec?e?dent??/n. ?pr?s?d?nt; adj. pr??sidnt, ?pr?s?d?nt/ *Show Spelled
Pronunciation [n. pres-i-duhnt; adj. pri-seed-nt, pres-i-duhnt] *Show
IPA

–noun
1. Law. a legal decision or form of proceeding serving as an
authoritative rule or pattern in future similar or analogous cases.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So if the person in front of you jumps off a cliff, then it's OK for
you to do it too?

Hey, they set a precedent. There's good ones and bad ones. According
to Loogy, they should all be emulated just 'cause they're precedents.

Liberal judges in New Hampshire and elsewhere set precedents when
they let child rapists off with a one year sentence. Those precedents
leads to things like this:

http://tinyurl.com/yd8s8yf
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:48:18 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:49:48 -0500, Harry
wrote:

Jon Stewart pointed out that these climate savers managed to lease
every limo in western europe, some couriered in from as far away as
Germany so nobody had to share a ride.

Well, you can't have people who are interested in saving the planet have to
ride two to a limo or two to a jet, now can you. It's just not done.

I wonder how many heating oil tanks could have been filled for what was
spent on that extravaganza.

BTW, what's a caviar wedge? I understand they ate a lot of caviar. That
would have bought a lot of turkeys at the shelters.

I bet they had expensive cognac and real Cuban cigars, too.

Nothing too good for our tax dollars.

Steve



Does anyone recall "stevie" objecting when bush was spending like a
drunken sailor, and cutting taxes for the wealthy at the same time?

Hypocrisy, thy real name is republican/conservative. Nothing is piled
higher than republican/conservative b.s.



I was complaining about the Bush/Clinton/Bush war long before it
became Obama's war. Is that the spending you are talking about?

Just because it was bad then doesn't mean it's bad now. Obama is doing
it now, therefore it's a good thing. He's just emulating a bad
precedent, but since it *is* a precedent, it's a good thing to
emulate.

I think this is the correct loogic.
--

John H

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Churchill

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:22:38 -0500, John H
wrote:



"Living wills are a good thing."

Great words. The choice is yours to make, not some money advisor to
the President.

Keep your finances in order so your survivors can keep as much of your
money as possible, so their time here is eased.
Forget about hating politicians and think more about God.
His arms are open, warm, and welcoming.
Life here is a fleeting time, and should be enjoyed by loving and
being loved.
Arguing about politicians in a hellish manner only predicts your
future and eternal place of residence.
Even a hell filled with golfers is better than one filled with
politicians.
But only slightly.

--Vic