On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:17:02 +0000, Jim - wrote:


Secretary of State Colin Powell today regarding the cost of the war on terrorism: We
will endure whatever costs it takes to win this war. It will certainly be cheaper in
the long run and result in less civilian loss of lives than to have to relive another
9-11.

I would suggest this ignores the *innocent* civilian lives lost in Iraq
and Afghanistan. Then, they are only ragheads, and the killing continues.


That is our resolve. Like it or not Harry.

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:05:01 -0400, thunder
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:09:33 +0000, Calif Bill wrote:

What is really scary, other than your IQ, is that no WMD's were found!
Where did they go? IS a known fact he had them, even your beloved Clinton
believed the fact, especially the proven fact he used them on his own people
as well as Iranians. Which country is the holder of the weapons now? They
scary fact is that zero has been found. Means that there was a very
complete transfer out of the country.
Bill

Possibly, another explanation is that the UN inspectors were correct in
their estimation that up to 98% of the weapons were already destroyed.

Then they should have been able to point to where they were
destroyed at.

Also, you may want to consider that the weapons he had in the 1990s are no
longer weapons. They do have a shelf live.

biological, maybe. Chemical? Who knows.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:10:01 +0000, rickb308 wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:05:01 -0400, thunder
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:09:33 +0000, Calif Bill wrote:

What is really scary, other than your IQ, is that no WMD's were found!
Where did they go? IS a known fact he had them, even your beloved Clinton
believed the fact, especially the proven fact he used them on his own people
as well as Iranians. Which country is the holder of the weapons now? They
scary fact is that zero has been found. Means that there was a very
complete transfer out of the country.
Bill

Possibly, another explanation is that the UN inspectors were correct in
their estimation that up to 98% of the weapons were already destroyed.

Then they should have been able to point to where they were
destroyed at.

UN Inspectors have verified much of the destroyed weapons. The sticking
point has always been the verification/documentation of the remaining
weapons. There is much information on the internet about this, or do you
actually believe that Iran would accept Iraq's WMD? The same weapons that
they had seen first hand in the Iran Iraq War, a war that cost the
Iranians 1/2 million people.



Also, you may want to consider that the weapons he had in the 1990s are no
longer weapons. They do have a shelf live.

biological, maybe. Chemical? Who knows.

Iraq was known to produce three nerve agents, sarin, tabun, and VX. Sarin
and tabun have a shelf live of five years. It is not known that Iraq ever
stabilized VX.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:56:51 -0400, thunder
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:10:01 +0000, rickb308 wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:05:01 -0400, thunder
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:09:33 +0000, Calif Bill wrote:

What is really scary, other than your IQ, is that no WMD's were found!
Where did they go? IS a known fact he had them, even your beloved Clinton
believed the fact, especially the proven fact he used them on his own people
as well as Iranians. Which country is the holder of the weapons now? They
scary fact is that zero has been found. Means that there was a very
complete transfer out of the country.
Bill

Possibly, another explanation is that the UN inspectors were correct in
their estimation that up to 98% of the weapons were already destroyed.

Then they should have been able to point to where they were
destroyed at.

UN Inspectors have verified much of the destroyed weapons. The sticking
point has always been the verification/documentation of the remaining
weapons. There is much information on the internet about this, or do you
actually believe that Iran would accept Iraq's WMD? The same weapons that
they had seen first hand in the Iran Iraq War, a war that cost the
Iranians 1/2 million people.

Thinking more along the lines of Syria or Libya.


Also, you may want to consider that the weapons he had in the 1990s are no
longer weapons. They do have a shelf live.

biological, maybe. Chemical? Who knows.

Iraq was known to produce three nerve agents, sarin, tabun, and VX. Sarin
and tabun have a shelf live of five years. It is not known that Iraq ever
stabilized VX.

Known. Key operating word.

If we had "known", we would have gotten Saddam. We would have
"known" where he was. Thanks to budget cuts, and not being able
to hire "thieves", our humint assests were mighty thin on the
ground. We don't "know" everything they did.

Hell, we didn't "KNOW" that they buried 30 fully armed MIG
fighters in the sand. We found those by accident. And we admitted
they were found by accident. Would have been easy to claim we
knew where THEY were.


Rick Bowen
TSRA Life Member
NRA Member

Without the 2nd Amendment,
the rest are just suggestions.

snip
Known. Key operating word.

If we had "known", we would have gotten Saddam. We would have
"known" where he was. Thanks to budget cuts, and not being able
to hire "thieves", our humint assests were mighty thin on the
ground. We don't "know" everything they did.

Hell, we didn't "KNOW" that they buried 30 fully armed MIG
fighters in the sand. We found those by accident. And we admitted
they were found by accident. Would have been easy to claim we
knew where THEY were.
snip

Saddam effectively destroyed these arms. A turbine does not take well to
being buried in sand; without extensive refitting those birds will never fly
again.
I can't begin to imagine why he chose to comply with the orders to disarm,
but not to let the inspectors verify the fact. One working theory: it may
have been in Saddams best interest to make his neighbors think he still
possessed them so that he could maintain some control of his political
rivals.

Mark Browne

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:50:55 GMT, "Mark Browne"
wrote:

snip
Known. Key operating word.

If we had "known", we would have gotten Saddam. We would have
"known" where he was. Thanks to budget cuts, and not being able
to hire "thieves", our humint assests were mighty thin on the
ground. We don't "know" everything they did.

Hell, we didn't "KNOW" that they buried 30 fully armed MIG
fighters in the sand. We found those by accident. And we admitted
they were found by accident. Would have been easy to claim we
knew where THEY were.
snip

Saddam effectively destroyed these arms. A turbine does not take well to
being buried in sand; without extensive refitting those birds will never fly
again.
I can't begin to imagine why he chose to comply with the orders to disarm,
but not to let the inspectors verify the fact. One working theory: it may
have been in Saddams best interest to make his neighbors think he still
possessed them so that he could maintain some control of his political
rivals.

Mark Browne


Were they cucooned or were they simply bulldozed over?

Gunner

" ......The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my
age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- "

Chas , rec.knives

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:50:55 GMT, "Mark Browne"
wrote:

snip
Known. Key operating word.

If we had "known", we would have gotten Saddam. We would have
"known" where he was. Thanks to budget cuts, and not being able
to hire "thieves", our humint assests were mighty thin on the
ground. We don't "know" everything they did.

Hell, we didn't "KNOW" that they buried 30 fully armed MIG
fighters in the sand. We found those by accident. And we admitted
they were found by accident. Would have been easy to claim we
knew where THEY were.
snip

Saddam effectively destroyed these arms. A turbine does not take well to
being buried in sand; without extensive refitting those birds will never
fly
again.
I can't begin to imagine why he chose to comply with the orders to
disarm,
but not to let the inspectors verify the fact. One working theory: it may
have been in Saddams best interest to make his neighbors think he still
possessed them so that he could maintain some control of his political
rivals.

Mark Browne


Were they cucooned or were they simply bulldozed over?

Gunner

snip
The pictures I saw looked like they had just dug a ditch, pushed them in,
and covered them up.
The sand was in direct contact with the birds.

Mark Browne

Mark Browne wrote:

I can't begin to imagine why he chose to comply with the orders to disarm,
but not to let the inspectors verify the fact. One working theory: it may
have been in Saddams best interest to make his neighbors think he still
possessed them so that he could maintain some control of his political
rivals.


A good theory. But one that ultimately led to this war and his ultimate
fall from power.

Dave

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:58:11 -0500, rickb308 wrote:


Thinking more along the lines of Syria or Libya.

I just don't see it. Since Reagan bombed Qaddafi, Libya has been trying
to rehabilitate it's image. It recently accepted responsibility for the
Pam Am bombing and paid reparations. Syria and Iraq may share a hatred
for Israel, but Syria sided with Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. It is true
that the relationship has been improving, but not to the point that they
would be willing to risk our wrath by accepting Iraq's weapons.

If you want to know about the WMD, I would look closer to home, to
Rumsfeld's Office of Special Plans. I would suggest they cooked the
intell on Iraq and I personally feel Rumsfeld should be fired.

Some interesting reads:

http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/030512fa_fact

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/09/13/p7s1.htm

http://www.meib.org/articles/0103_s1.htm

wrote in message
...


Known. Key operating word.


Interesting article on the limits of intelligence:

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_...n_julaug03.asp

The title makes it sound like left-wing stuff, but read it anyway. It was
just a poor choice of title, and the shortcomings described in the article
apply to ANY administration.