nom=de=plume wrote:


Facts aren't tools used by democrats. Lies and deception is more their
style. And then there's the real dumb ones that come pre-programmed.
Krause for example. You for another.
Actually it would be nice if facts were used by both sides in any debate.
Unfortunately we disagree with the definition of a fact.

Remembering from school, one side sees facts as something you manipulate
to get what you want, to others, facts are facts and can't be changed.

Lies and deception are good ways to manipulate facts. You see it all the
time.


"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

And some dingbats can't tell the difference.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:17:42 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

As Wayne suggested, you have to closely monitor feedback mechanisms.
Don't want "unintended consequences."

Rule number 1: There are always unintended consequences.

Rule number 2: Pay attention to number 1.

On Oct 29, 11:22*pm, Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message
om...
Loogypicker wrote:
This just can't be happening, they must have used trick photography,
and lies because the right's two top climate scientists, Rush Limbaugh
and Shawn Hannity say so.....

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...CIENCE-US-CLIM....

OTTAWA — The multiyear ice covering the Arctic Ocean has effectively
vanished, a startling development that will make it easier to open up
polar shipping routes, an Arctic expert said on Thursday.

Vast sheets of impenetrable multiyear ice, which can reach up to 80
meters (260 feet) thick, have for centuries blocked the path of ships
seeking a quick short cut through the fabled Northwest Passage from
the Atlantic to the Pacific. They also ruled out the idea of sailing
across the top of the world.

But David Barber, Canada's Research Chair in Arctic System Science at
the University of Manitoba, said the ice was melting at an
extraordinarily fast rate.

"We are almost out of multiyear sea ice in the northern hemisphere,"
he said in a presentation in Parliament. The little that remains is
jammed up against Canada's Arctic archipelago, far from potential
shipping routes.

Scientists link higher Arctic temperatures and melting sea ice to the
greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming.

Barber spoke shortly after returning from an expedition that sought --
and largely failed to find -- a huge multiyear ice pack that should
have been in the Beaufort Sea off the Canadian coastal town of
Tuktoyaktuk.

Instead, his ice breaker found hundreds of miles of what he called
"rotten ice" -- 50-cm (20-inch) thin layers of fresh ice covering
small chunks of older ice.

"I've never seen anything like this in my 30 years of working in the
high Arctic ... it was very dramatic," he said.

"From a practical perspective, if you want to ship across the pole,
you're concerned about multiyear sea ice. You're not concerned about
this rotten stuff we were doing 13 knots through. It's easy to
navigate through."

Scientists have fretted for decades about the pace at which the Arctic
ice sheets are shrinking. U.S. data shows the 2009 ice cover was the
third-lowest on record, after 2007 and 2008.

An increasing number of experts feel the North Pole will be ice free
in summer by 2030 at the latest, for the first time in a million
years.

"I would argue that, from a practical perspective, we almost have a
seasonally ice-free Arctic now, because multiyear sea ice is the
barrier to the use and development of the Arctic," said Barber.

Fresh first-year ice always forms in the Arctic in the winter, when
temperatures plunge far below freezing and the North Pole is not
exposed to the sun.

Shipping companies are already looking to benefit from warming waters..
This year two German cargo ships successfully navigated from South
Korea along Russia's northern Siberia coast without the help of
icebreakers.

The Arctic is warming up three times more quickly than the rest of the
Earth, in part because of the reflectivity, or the albedo feedback
effect, of ice.

As more and more ice melts, larger expanses of darker sea water are
exposed. These absorb more sunlight than the ice and cause the water
to heat up more quickly, thereby melting more ice.

Barber said the ice was now being melted both by rays from the sun as
well as from below by the warmer water.

Scientists are also seeing more cyclones, which pick up force as they
absorb heat from the warmer water. The cyclones help generate waves
that break up ice sheets and also dump large amounts of snow, which
has an insulating effect and prevents the ice sheets from thickening.

After a long search, Barber's ice breaker finally found a 16-km (10-
mile) wide floe of multiyear ice that was around 6 to 8 meters (20-26
feet) thick. But as the crew watched, the floe was hit by a series of
waves, and disintegrated in five minutes.

"The Arctic is an early indicator of what we can expect at the global
scale as we move through the next few decades ... So we should be
paying attention to this very carefully," Barber said
What happened is that the people who tend to not accept science, like
evolution, and distrust regulation because it's THEIR RIGHT to do what
they want, are trying to get an argument started about "Global Warming.."

Of course their point of view is it ain't happening. *We are now to
justify the opposite of their point of view trying to tell them of science
and the need for regulation, proving them right, science can't be trusted,
and regulation is unacceptable.

Why argue with those guys? *To them facts can be adjusted, there's no use
playing their game.

I agree in principle, but there's a reason, and it doesn't really have to do
with "arguing." It has to do with ensuring that the truth gets out there. A
lot of what's been going on can be boiled down to fear-based tactics. We saw
what happened when it's allowed to stand without challenge. It needs to be
challenged.

They certainly have a right to their own opinions, and they even have a
right to try to influence others, but the rest of us have a right to have
our opinions to try to influence others also. We should certainly not be
playing their game. We're not very good at using fear. We need to get better
at using facts and a civil tone. Recent history has shown that the
combination of the two works.

Facts aren't tools used by democrats. Lies and deception is more their
style. And then there's the real dumb ones that come pre-programmed.
Krause for example. You for another.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Riiiiiiight..........

http://www.theseminal.com/2008/09/03...publican-lies/

In article c5b90cc3-4282-41bc-bded-
,
says...

On Oct 29, 11:22*pm, Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message
om...
Loogypicker wrote:
This just can't be happening, they must have used trick photography,
and lies because the right's two top climate scientists, Rush Limbaugh
and Shawn Hannity say so.....

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...CIENCE-US-CLIM...

OTTAWA ? The multiyear ice covering the Arctic Ocean has effectively
vanished, a startling development that will make it easier to open up
polar shipping routes, an Arctic expert said on Thursday.

Vast sheets of impenetrable multiyear ice, which can reach up to 80
meters (260 feet) thick, have for centuries blocked the path of ships
seeking a quick short cut through the fabled Northwest Passage from
the Atlantic to the Pacific. They also ruled out the idea of sailing
across the top of the world.

But David Barber, Canada's Research Chair in Arctic System Science at
the University of Manitoba, said the ice was melting at an
extraordinarily fast rate.

"We are almost out of multiyear sea ice in the northern hemisphere,"
he said in a presentation in Parliament. The little that remains is
jammed up against Canada's Arctic archipelago, far from potential
shipping routes.

Scientists link higher Arctic temperatures and melting sea ice to the
greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming.

Barber spoke shortly after returning from an expedition that sought --
and largely failed to find -- a huge multiyear ice pack that should
have been in the Beaufort Sea off the Canadian coastal town of
Tuktoyaktuk.

Instead, his ice breaker found hundreds of miles of what he called
"rotten ice" -- 50-cm (20-inch) thin layers of fresh ice covering
small chunks of older ice.

"I've never seen anything like this in my 30 years of working in the
high Arctic ... it was very dramatic," he said.

"From a practical perspective, if you want to ship across the pole,
you're concerned about multiyear sea ice. You're not concerned about
this rotten stuff we were doing 13 knots through. It's easy to
navigate through."

Scientists have fretted for decades about the pace at which the Arctic
ice sheets are shrinking. U.S. data shows the 2009 ice cover was the
third-lowest on record, after 2007 and 2008.

An increasing number of experts feel the North Pole will be ice free
in summer by 2030 at the latest, for the first time in a million
years.

"I would argue that, from a practical perspective, we almost have a
seasonally ice-free Arctic now, because multiyear sea ice is the
barrier to the use and development of the Arctic," said Barber.

Fresh first-year ice always forms in the Arctic in the winter, when
temperatures plunge far below freezing and the North Pole is not
exposed to the sun.

Shipping companies are already looking to benefit from warming waters.
This year two German cargo ships successfully navigated from South
Korea along Russia's northern Siberia coast without the help of
icebreakers.

The Arctic is warming up three times more quickly than the rest of the
Earth, in part because of the reflectivity, or the albedo feedback
effect, of ice.

As more and more ice melts, larger expanses of darker sea water are
exposed. These absorb more sunlight than the ice and cause the water
to heat up more quickly, thereby melting more ice.

Barber said the ice was now being melted both by rays from the sun as
well as from below by the warmer water.

Scientists are also seeing more cyclones, which pick up force as they
absorb heat from the warmer water. The cyclones help generate waves
that break up ice sheets and also dump large amounts of snow, which
has an insulating effect and prevents the ice sheets from thickening.

After a long search, Barber's ice breaker finally found a 16-km (10-
mile) wide floe of multiyear ice that was around 6 to 8 meters (20-26
feet) thick. But as the crew watched, the floe was hit by a series of
waves, and disintegrated in five minutes.

"The Arctic is an early indicator of what we can expect at the global
scale as we move through the next few decades ... So we should be
paying attention to this very carefully," Barber said
What happened is that the people who tend to not accept science, like
evolution, and distrust regulation because it's THEIR RIGHT to do what
they want, are trying to get an argument started about "Global Warming."

Of course their point of view is it ain't happening. *We are now to
justify the opposite of their point of view trying to tell them of science
and the need for regulation, proving them right, science can't be trusted,
and regulation is unacceptable.

Why argue with those guys? *To them facts can be adjusted, there's no use
playing their game.

I agree in principle, but there's a reason, and it doesn't really have to do
with "arguing." It has to do with ensuring that the truth gets out there. A
lot of what's been going on can be boiled down to fear-based tactics. We saw
what happened when it's allowed to stand without challenge. It needs to be
challenged.

They certainly have a right to their own opinions, and they even have a
right to try to influence others, but the rest of us have a right to have
our opinions to try to influence others also. We should certainly not be
playing their game. We're not very good at using fear. We need to get better
at using facts and a civil tone. Recent history has shown that the
combination of the two works.

Facts aren't tools used by democrats. Lies and deception is more their
style. And then there's the real dumb ones that come pre-programmed.
Krause for example. You for another.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Riiiiiiight..........

http://www.theseminal.com/2008/09/03...publican-lies/

Yeah "mother****ers" right in the first paragraph.. Yeah, there's a
journalist snerk I trust to be fair... Oh wait, only Republicans are
held to standards of speech, almost forgot..

On 10/30/09 10:07 AM, Tosk wrote:
In articlec5b90cc3-4282-41bc-bded-
,
says...

On Oct 29, 11:22 pm, wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
m...
Loogypicker wrote:
This just can't be happening, they must have used trick photography,
and lies because the right's two top climate scientists, Rush Limbaugh
and Shawn Hannity say so.....

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...CIENCE-US-CLIM...

OTTAWA ? The multiyear ice covering the Arctic Ocean has effectively
vanished, a startling development that will make it easier to open up
polar shipping routes, an Arctic expert said on Thursday.

Vast sheets of impenetrable multiyear ice, which can reach up to 80
meters (260 feet) thick, have for centuries blocked the path of ships
seeking a quick short cut through the fabled Northwest Passage from
the Atlantic to the Pacific. They also ruled out the idea of sailing
across the top of the world.

But David Barber, Canada's Research Chair in Arctic System Science at
the University of Manitoba, said the ice was melting at an
extraordinarily fast rate.

"We are almost out of multiyear sea ice in the northern hemisphere,"
he said in a presentation in Parliament. The little that remains is
jammed up against Canada's Arctic archipelago, far from potential
shipping routes.

Scientists link higher Arctic temperatures and melting sea ice to the
greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming.

Barber spoke shortly after returning from an expedition that sought --
and largely failed to find -- a huge multiyear ice pack that should
have been in the Beaufort Sea off the Canadian coastal town of
Tuktoyaktuk.

Instead, his ice breaker found hundreds of miles of what he called
"rotten ice" -- 50-cm (20-inch) thin layers of fresh ice covering
small chunks of older ice.

"I've never seen anything like this in my 30 years of working in the
high Arctic ... it was very dramatic," he said.

"From a practical perspective, if you want to ship across the pole,
you're concerned about multiyear sea ice. You're not concerned about
this rotten stuff we were doing 13 knots through. It's easy to
navigate through."

Scientists have fretted for decades about the pace at which the Arctic
ice sheets are shrinking. U.S. data shows the 2009 ice cover was the
third-lowest on record, after 2007 and 2008.

An increasing number of experts feel the North Pole will be ice free
in summer by 2030 at the latest, for the first time in a million
years.

"I would argue that, from a practical perspective, we almost have a
seasonally ice-free Arctic now, because multiyear sea ice is the
barrier to the use and development of the Arctic," said Barber.

Fresh first-year ice always forms in the Arctic in the winter, when
temperatures plunge far below freezing and the North Pole is not
exposed to the sun.

Shipping companies are already looking to benefit from warming waters.
This year two German cargo ships successfully navigated from South
Korea along Russia's northern Siberia coast without the help of
icebreakers.

The Arctic is warming up three times more quickly than the rest of the
Earth, in part because of the reflectivity, or the albedo feedback
effect, of ice.

As more and more ice melts, larger expanses of darker sea water are
exposed. These absorb more sunlight than the ice and cause the water
to heat up more quickly, thereby melting more ice.

Barber said the ice was now being melted both by rays from the sun as
well as from below by the warmer water.

Scientists are also seeing more cyclones, which pick up force as they
absorb heat from the warmer water. The cyclones help generate waves
that break up ice sheets and also dump large amounts of snow, which
has an insulating effect and prevents the ice sheets from thickening.

After a long search, Barber's ice breaker finally found a 16-km (10-
mile) wide floe of multiyear ice that was around 6 to 8 meters (20-26
feet) thick. But as the crew watched, the floe was hit by a series of
waves, and disintegrated in five minutes.

"The Arctic is an early indicator of what we can expect at the global
scale as we move through the next few decades ... So we should be
paying attention to this very carefully," Barber said
What happened is that the people who tend to not accept science, like
evolution, and distrust regulation because it's THEIR RIGHT to do what
they want, are trying to get an argument started about "Global Warming."

Of course their point of view is it ain't happening. We are now to
justify the opposite of their point of view trying to tell them of science
and the need for regulation, proving them right, science can't be trusted,
and regulation is unacceptable.

Why argue with those guys? To them facts can be adjusted, there's no use
playing their game.

I agree in principle, but there's a reason, and it doesn't really have to do
with "arguing." It has to do with ensuring that the truth gets out there. A
lot of what's been going on can be boiled down to fear-based tactics. We saw
what happened when it's allowed to stand without challenge. It needs to be
challenged.

They certainly have a right to their own opinions, and they even have a
right to try to influence others, but the rest of us have a right to have
our opinions to try to influence others also. We should certainly not be
playing their game. We're not very good at using fear. We need to get better
at using facts and a civil tone. Recent history has shown that the
combination of the two works.

Facts aren't tools used by democrats. Lies and deception is more their
style. And then there's the real dumb ones that come pre-programmed.
Krause for example. You for another.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Riiiiiiight..........

http://www.theseminal.com/2008/09/03...publican-lies/

Yeah "mother****ers" right in the first paragraph.. Yeah, there's a
journalistsnerk I trust to be fair... Oh wait, only Republicans are
held to standards of speech, almost forgot..



You don't have the education or life experience to judge *any* sort of
data.

What credentials have you to dispute any climate scientist? Oh...I
know...you made a snowball once. Stacking boxes in a warehouse, the only
real job you've had in your lifetime, is honest work but isn't a
qualifier for commentary on scientific matters.

Loogypicker wrote:
On Oct 29, 11:22 pm, Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message
m...
Loogypicker wrote:
This just can't be happening, they must have used trick photography,
and lies because the right's two top climate scientists, Rush Limbaugh
and Shawn Hannity say so.....
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...CIENCE-US-CLIM...
OTTAWA — The multiyear ice covering the Arctic Ocean has effectively
vanished, a startling development that will make it easier to open up
polar shipping routes, an Arctic expert said on Thursday.
Vast sheets of impenetrable multiyear ice, which can reach up to 80
meters (260 feet) thick, have for centuries blocked the path of ships
seeking a quick short cut through the fabled Northwest Passage from
the Atlantic to the Pacific. They also ruled out the idea of sailing
across the top of the world.
But David Barber, Canada's Research Chair in Arctic System Science at
the University of Manitoba, said the ice was melting at an
extraordinarily fast rate.
"We are almost out of multiyear sea ice in the northern hemisphere,"
he said in a presentation in Parliament. The little that remains is
jammed up against Canada's Arctic archipelago, far from potential
shipping routes.
Scientists link higher Arctic temperatures and melting sea ice to the
greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming.
Barber spoke shortly after returning from an expedition that sought --
and largely failed to find -- a huge multiyear ice pack that should
have been in the Beaufort Sea off the Canadian coastal town of
Tuktoyaktuk.
Instead, his ice breaker found hundreds of miles of what he called
"rotten ice" -- 50-cm (20-inch) thin layers of fresh ice covering
small chunks of older ice.
"I've never seen anything like this in my 30 years of working in the
high Arctic ... it was very dramatic," he said.
"From a practical perspective, if you want to ship across the pole,
you're concerned about multiyear sea ice. You're not concerned about
this rotten stuff we were doing 13 knots through. It's easy to
navigate through."
Scientists have fretted for decades about the pace at which the Arctic
ice sheets are shrinking. U.S. data shows the 2009 ice cover was the
third-lowest on record, after 2007 and 2008.
An increasing number of experts feel the North Pole will be ice free
in summer by 2030 at the latest, for the first time in a million
years.
"I would argue that, from a practical perspective, we almost have a
seasonally ice-free Arctic now, because multiyear sea ice is the
barrier to the use and development of the Arctic," said Barber.
Fresh first-year ice always forms in the Arctic in the winter, when
temperatures plunge far below freezing and the North Pole is not
exposed to the sun.
Shipping companies are already looking to benefit from warming waters.
This year two German cargo ships successfully navigated from South
Korea along Russia's northern Siberia coast without the help of
icebreakers.
The Arctic is warming up three times more quickly than the rest of the
Earth, in part because of the reflectivity, or the albedo feedback
effect, of ice.
As more and more ice melts, larger expanses of darker sea water are
exposed. These absorb more sunlight than the ice and cause the water
to heat up more quickly, thereby melting more ice.
Barber said the ice was now being melted both by rays from the sun as
well as from below by the warmer water.
Scientists are also seeing more cyclones, which pick up force as they
absorb heat from the warmer water. The cyclones help generate waves
that break up ice sheets and also dump large amounts of snow, which
has an insulating effect and prevents the ice sheets from thickening.
After a long search, Barber's ice breaker finally found a 16-km (10-
mile) wide floe of multiyear ice that was around 6 to 8 meters (20-26
feet) thick. But as the crew watched, the floe was hit by a series of
waves, and disintegrated in five minutes.
"The Arctic is an early indicator of what we can expect at the global
scale as we move through the next few decades ... So we should be
paying attention to this very carefully," Barber said
What happened is that the people who tend to not accept science, like
evolution, and distrust regulation because it's THEIR RIGHT to do what
they want, are trying to get an argument started about "Global Warming."
Of course their point of view is it ain't happening. We are now to
justify the opposite of their point of view trying to tell them of science
and the need for regulation, proving them right, science can't be trusted,
and regulation is unacceptable.
Why argue with those guys? To them facts can be adjusted, there's no use
playing their game.
I agree in principle, but there's a reason, and it doesn't really have to do
with "arguing." It has to do with ensuring that the truth gets out there. A
lot of what's been going on can be boiled down to fear-based tactics. We saw
what happened when it's allowed to stand without challenge. It needs to be
challenged.
They certainly have a right to their own opinions, and they even have a
right to try to influence others, but the rest of us have a right to have
our opinions to try to influence others also. We should certainly not be
playing their game. We're not very good at using fear. We need to get better
at using facts and a civil tone. Recent history has shown that the
combination of the two works.
Facts aren't tools used by democrats. Lies and deception is more their
style. And then there's the real dumb ones that come pre-programmed.
Krause for example. You for another.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Riiiiiiight..........

http://www.theseminal.com/2008/09/03...publican-lies/

I'm sure that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. But the problem is
you've been lied to again.
You need to expand your field of view to see the big picture. politics
is a synonym for dirty corrupt business. Political parties are just
tools to keep us fighting among ourselves, in hopes that what is really
happening goes unnoticed.

The current administration and congress is comprised of the scummiest
bunch of thieves,thugs, and perverted individuals that this country has
ever seen.

Aligning yourself with ANY political party is only making yourself part
of the problem.

Stand up and be counted as an individual.

Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:


I certainly understand. It's not too important to speak up in a forum
like this, but in other situations, I believe it is.

Get theee into another situation pronto, puleeeeze.

Getting into a discussion with the intentionally ignorant is a loosing
battle.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:20:43 -0700, Jim wrote:

Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:


I certainly understand. It's not too important to speak up in a forum
like this, but in other situations, I believe it is.

Get theee into another situation pronto, puleeeeze.

Getting into a discussion with the intentionally ignorant is a loosing
battle.

Intent falls short in this situation, otherwise I agree.

Dogged pursuit of ignorance seems more fitting.

jps wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:20:43 -0700, Jim wrote:

Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:

I certainly understand. It's not too important to speak up in a forum
like this, but in other situations, I believe it is.

Get theee into another situation pronto, puleeeeze.
Getting into a discussion with the intentionally ignorant is a loosing
battle.

Intent falls short in this situation, otherwise I agree.

Dogged pursuit of ignorance seems more fitting.

Frank Schaeffer, who wrote books the Christian right have on their book
shelves, and videos they use as the basis of their beliefs, refers to
them as "Permanently scared and intentionally ignorant."

I love it that someone responsible for the Christian right refers to
them as intentionally ignorant.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:09:36 -0700, Jim wrote:

jps wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:20:43 -0700, Jim wrote:

Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:

I certainly understand. It's not too important to speak up in a forum
like this, but in other situations, I believe it is.

Get theee into another situation pronto, puleeeeze.
Getting into a discussion with the intentionally ignorant is a loosing
battle.

Intent falls short in this situation, otherwise I agree.

Dogged pursuit of ignorance seems more fitting.

Frank Schaeffer, who wrote books the Christian right have on their book
shelves, and videos they use as the basis of their beliefs, refers to
them as "Permanently scared and intentionally ignorant."

I love it that someone responsible for the Christian right refers to
them as intentionally ignorant.

Do you suppose a lot of Frank Schaeffer books have been burned since
he announced this little tidbit? Would that qualify as irony?