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a Big Pump
Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot
of water. My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. Might even get a dedicated battery for it. |
a Big Pump
Frogwatch wrote:
Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. Might even get a dedicated battery for it. Make sure you put that battery in the lowest part of your boat. -- Birther-Deather-Tenther-Teabagger: Idiots All |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 11:33*am, Frogwatch wrote:
Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. Wow, to me that's a bit of overkill, but if need be uyou could probably use it for jet propulsion if necessary. ?;^ Q |
a Big Pump
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
... Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. Might even get a dedicated battery for it. I was looking at a sailing magazine a couple of months ago. I saw an article about someone connecting a hose to the water pump, then using the engine to suck water out of the boat. Seems like that would cut out a lot of the battery problems because it would engine not battery doing the work. -- Nom=de=Plume |
a Big Pump
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message ... Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. Might even get a dedicated battery for it. I was looking at a sailing magazine a couple of months ago. I saw an article about someone connecting a hose to the water pump, then using the engine to suck water out of the boat. Seems like that would cut out a lot of the battery problems because it would engine not battery doing the work. Caveat: If the pump sucks all the water out and burns up, you have lost the use of your engine. The bypass valve must be manned constantly to avoid that calamity. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. Might even get a dedicated battery for it. I think that's a good plan, with a couple of caveats: It's a good idea to derate the capacity of bilge pumps by 50% or so to compensate for head loss and hose friction. It's also important to remember that bilge pump float-switches have a proven record of unreliability, leading to the need for a manual override switch, and possibly the desirability of a second, totally separate, pump/float-switch combo. No one has ever complained about having too much bilge pump capacity. If the cockpit of an open boat swamps with big water you are only seconds from a loss of stability and capsize. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access When you think about it, that's really only a gallon/second. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:03:18 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote: When you think about it, that's really only a gallon/second. Yes, and the reality is more like half of that. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. The leads will be rated for the load. What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. Are your leads 16awg? 14 awg would work. Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:03:18 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access When you think about it, that's really only a gallon/second. This is the one you really want: http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Rule+Bilge+Pump+8000+Automatic+Submersible.html I'm thinking about getting a couple of them for our trawler before we head down to the islands next winter. |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 2:03*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access When you think about it, that's really only a gallon/second.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That is pretty good capacity. You can't pour it out of a milk jug that fast. come to think of it, you can't dump it out of a pitcher that fast. That's a lot of water! |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look at http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck! |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote:
On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote:
On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. 10g, cheap insurance. Copper is cheap, lives expensive |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote:
On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara
wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. These are typical constructions though. There are non-standard constructions out there. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it.. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Really tinned, cut it, you see copper, it also solders well |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it.. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. Also is pretty inflexible. |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 8:06*pm, Jack wrote:
On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, those are the same people who like to burn up folks in cheap mobile home fires. Seen it before. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack
wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. Also is pretty inflexible. The THHN designation essentially describes the insulation type, and you are right in stating the general applications where the wire using this type of construction is generally used. THHN wire can be manufactured with either copper or an aluminum alloy. Quite often the larger gauge constructions will use aluminum to reduce the cost of the product. But, I've had more than one occasion where persons have confused aluminum with tinned copper and vice versa, not that this is true if Frogger's case. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:53:38 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara
wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Really tinned, cut it, you see copper, it also solders well I was curious. Tinned copper does solder well. You can't sonic weld it for anything, though. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote: On Sep 17, 8:06*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, those are the same people who like to burn up folks in cheap mobile home fires. Seen it before. I think that has been regulated since the late '70's and early 80's. Another fire hazard is the splicing of aluminum and copper. If I remember correctly, if there's no alternative, there's a compound that should be applied and a certain splicing procedure that needs to be followed to reduce the risk. Still it's not the best practice. It's been too long since I've researched it. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 9:37*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:53:38 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon..com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Really tinned, cut it, you see copper, it also solders well I was curious. *Tinned copper does solder well. *You can't sonic weld it for anything, though. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access This specifically says "Ancor Marine Grade" on the sheath. |
a Big Pump
|
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 9:35*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon..com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible. The THHN designation essentially describes the insulation type, and you are right in stating the general applications where the wire using this type of construction is generally used. *THHN wire can be manufactured with either copper or an aluminum alloy. *Quite often the larger gauge constructions will use aluminum to reduce the cost of the product. *But, I've had more than one occasion where persons have confused aluminum with tinned copper and vice versa, not that this is true if Frogger's case. Maybe things have changed, but the following explains my understanding of the THHN designation: 1. SCOPE 1.1 This specification describes single conductor Rome THWN or THHN, a general purpose building wire insulated with polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and covered with a tough protective sheath of nylon intended for lighting and power circuits at 600 Volts or less, in residential, commercial and industrial buildings. The wire may be operated at 90oC maximum continuous temperature in dry locations and 75oC in wet locations and is listed by Underwriters Laboratories for use in accordance with Article 310 of the National Electrical Code. The wire shall also be C(UL) listed as Types T90 Nylon or TWN75, FT1 indicating suitability for use in accordance with the Canadian Code. 2. APPLICABLE STANDARDS 2.1 The following standards form a part of this specification to the extent specified herein: 2.1.1 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 83 for Thermoplastic Insulated Wires. 2.1.2 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 1063 for Machine-Tool Wires and Cables (Stranded items only). 2.1.3 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 758 for 105oC Appliance Wiring Materials (Stranded items only). 2.1.4 CSA Standard C22.2 No. 75 and Electrical Bulletin No. 1451 for Type T90 Nylon or TWN75. 3. CONDUCTORS 3.1 Conductors shall be solid, Class B or Class C stranded, annealed uncoated copper per UL Standards 83 or 1063. At least in the past aluminum was not allowed, but as I said, things may have changed in the latest UL standards. My job does not require me to stay completely current. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Jack
wrote: On Sep 17, 9:35*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible. The THHN designation essentially describes the insulation type, and you are right in stating the general applications where the wire using this type of construction is generally used. *THHN wire can be manufactured with either copper or an aluminum alloy. *Quite often the larger gauge constructions will use aluminum to reduce the cost of the product. *But, I've had more than one occasion where persons have confused aluminum with tinned copper and vice versa, not that this is true if Frogger's case. Maybe things have changed, but the following explains my understanding of the THHN designation: 1. SCOPE 1.1 This specification describes single conductor Rome THWN or THHN, a general purpose building wire insulated with polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and covered with a tough protective sheath of nylon intended for lighting and power circuits at 600 Volts or less, in residential, commercial and industrial buildings. The wire may be operated at 90oC maximum continuous temperature in dry locations and 75oC in wet locations and is listed by Underwriters Laboratories for use in accordance with Article 310 of the National Electrical Code. The wire shall also be C(UL) listed as Types T90 Nylon or TWN75, FT1 indicating suitability for use in accordance with the Canadian Code. 2. APPLICABLE STANDARDS 2.1 The following standards form a part of this specification to the extent specified herein: 2.1.1 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 83 for Thermoplastic Insulated Wires. 2.1.2 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 1063 for Machine-Tool Wires and Cables (Stranded items only). 2.1.3 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 758 for 105oC Appliance Wiring Materials (Stranded items only). 2.1.4 CSA Standard C22.2 No. 75 and Electrical Bulletin No. 1451 for Type T90 Nylon or TWN75. 3. CONDUCTORS 3.1 Conductors shall be solid, Class B or Class C stranded, annealed uncoated copper per UL Standards 83 or 1063. At least in the past aluminum was not allowed, but as I said, things may have changed in the latest UL standards. My job does not require me to stay completely current. What do you do, Jack, if you don't mind my asking? It looks as though you might be an electrical engineer. I owned a wire harness manufacturing concern for over a decade; but, my memory's not nearly as good as it used to be. And, I had scores of reference materials back then that I could use to look this stuff up. I still have my SAE references (at home). That doesn't do any good here at the office, though. And I have a copy of the NEC 2004 (approximate year) on disk somewhere. On a quick search I found this link; http://www.prolinesafety.com/store/i...=55&ItemId=46& and it may be that the aluminum construction is the THWN. When I wrote my note I was concerned with not confusing the TFFN with the THHN. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:45:56 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara
wrote: On Sep 17, 9:37*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:53:38 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Really tinned, cut it, you see copper, it also solders well I was curious. *Tinned copper does solder well. *You can't sonic weld it for anything, though. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access This specifically says "Ancor Marine Grade" on the sheath. Ancor's a new one for me. I used to work with Prestolite, Essex (Excel), Carol Cable, and others for product in that wire range. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 8:43*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 8:06*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so.. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance.. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc.. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, those are the same people who like to burn up folks in cheap mobile home fires. Seen it before. I think that has been regulated since the late '70's and early 80's. Another fire hazard is the splicing of aluminum and copper. *If I remember correctly, if there's no alternative, there's a compound that should be applied and a certain splicing procedure that needs to be followed to reduce the risk. *Still it's not the best practice. *It's been too long since I've researched it. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Could be, I've heard of the type of splice, but in about any situation, even low-load, I can't stand the idea of using aluminum wiring. *ugh!* |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 10:20*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:00:32 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 9:35*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible. The THHN designation essentially describes the insulation type, and you are right in stating the general applications where the wire using this type of construction is generally used. *THHN wire can be manufactured with either copper or an aluminum alloy. *Quite often the larger gauge constructions will use aluminum to reduce the cost of the product. *But, I've had more than one occasion where persons have confused aluminum with tinned copper and vice versa, not that this is true if Frogger's case. Maybe things have changed, but the following explains my understanding of the THHN designation: 1. SCOPE 1.1 This specification describes single conductor Rome THWN or THHN, a general purpose building wire insulated with polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and covered with a tough protective sheath of nylon intended for lighting and power circuits at 600 Volts or less, in residential, commercial and industrial buildings. The wire may be operated at 90oC maximum continuous temperature in dry locations and 75oC in wet locations and is listed by Underwriters Laboratories for use in accordance with Article 310 of the National Electrical Code. The wire shall also be C(UL) listed as Types T90 Nylon or TWN75, FT1 indicating suitability for use in accordance with the Canadian Code. 2. APPLICABLE STANDARDS 2.1 The following standards form a part of this specification to the extent specified herein: 2.1.1 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 83 for Thermoplastic Insulated Wires. 2.1.2 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 1063 for Machine-Tool Wires and Cables (Stranded items only). 2.1.3 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 758 for 105oC Appliance Wiring Materials (Stranded items only). 2.1.4 CSA Standard C22.2 No. 75 and Electrical Bulletin No. 1451 for Type T90 Nylon or TWN75. 3. CONDUCTORS 3.1 Conductors shall be solid, Class B or Class C stranded, annealed uncoated copper per UL Standards 83 or 1063. At least in the past aluminum was not allowed, but as I said, things may have changed in the latest UL standards. *My job does not require me to stay completely current. What do you do, Jack, if you don't mind my asking? *It looks as though you might be an electrical engineer. I owned a wire harness manufacturing concern for over a decade; but, my memory's not nearly as good as it used to be. *And, I had scores of reference materials back then that I could use to look this stuff up. I still have my SAE references (at home). *That doesn't do any good here at the office, though. *And I have a copy of the NEC 2004 (approximate year) on disk somewhere. On a quick search I found this link; http://www.prolinesafety.com/store/i...=55&ItemId=46& and it may be that the aluminum construction is the THWN. *When I wrote my note I was concerned with not confusing the TFFN with the THHN. * Actually, I still have it on my external drive, Jack. *I didn't think I would find it. *And it's been longer than I had thought. *Its the NEC2002: "310.14 Aluminum Conductor Material. Solid aluminum conductors 8, 10, and 12 AWG shall be made of an AA- 8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material. Stranded aluminum conductors 8 AWG through 1000 kcmil marked as Type RHH, RHW, XHHW, THW, THHW, THWN, THHN, service-entrance Type SE Style U and SE Style R shall be made of an AA-8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material." Ah, very good. Like I said, I don't have to keep up with this stuff in my job duties. Yep, I'm a EE, but at a communications equipment manufacturer, product owner role at this point. I refer to the NEC when I *have* to. :-) |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 10:09*pm, Tim wrote:
On Sep 17, 8:43*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 8:06*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, those are the same people who like to burn up folks in cheap mobile home fires. Seen it before. I think that has been regulated since the late '70's and early 80's. Another fire hazard is the splicing of aluminum and copper. *If I remember correctly, if there's no alternative, there's a compound that should be applied and a certain splicing procedure that needs to be followed to reduce the risk. *Still it's not the best practice. *It's been too long since I've researched it. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Could be, I've heard of the type of splice, but in about any situation, even low-load, I can't stand the idea of using aluminum wiring. *ugh!*- It definitely got a bad rap in past years, but used correctly, AL isn't a problem. I used it to sub-feed my shop with a 100 amp service. With anti-corrosive paste and the proper torquing of the lugs, it's not an issue. |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:26:21 -0700 (PDT), Jack
wrote: On Sep 17, 10:20*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:00:32 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 9:35*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible. The THHN designation essentially describes the insulation type, and you are right in stating the general applications where the wire using this type of construction is generally used. *THHN wire can be manufactured with either copper or an aluminum alloy. *Quite often the larger gauge constructions will use aluminum to reduce the cost of the product. *But, I've had more than one occasion where persons have confused aluminum with tinned copper and vice versa, not that this is true if Frogger's case. Maybe things have changed, but the following explains my understanding of the THHN designation: 1. SCOPE 1.1 This specification describes single conductor Rome THWN or THHN, a general purpose building wire insulated with polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and covered with a tough protective sheath of nylon intended for lighting and power circuits at 600 Volts or less, in residential, commercial and industrial buildings. The wire may be operated at 90oC maximum continuous temperature in dry locations and 75oC in wet locations and is listed by Underwriters Laboratories for use in accordance with Article 310 of the National Electrical Code. The wire shall also be C(UL) listed as Types T90 Nylon or TWN75, FT1 indicating suitability for use in accordance with the Canadian Code. 2. APPLICABLE STANDARDS 2.1 The following standards form a part of this specification to the extent specified herein: 2.1.1 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 83 for Thermoplastic Insulated Wires. 2.1.2 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 1063 for Machine-Tool Wires and Cables (Stranded items only). 2.1.3 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 758 for 105oC Appliance Wiring Materials (Stranded items only). 2.1.4 CSA Standard C22.2 No. 75 and Electrical Bulletin No. 1451 for Type T90 Nylon or TWN75. 3. CONDUCTORS 3.1 Conductors shall be solid, Class B or Class C stranded, annealed uncoated copper per UL Standards 83 or 1063. At least in the past aluminum was not allowed, but as I said, things may have changed in the latest UL standards. *My job does not require me to stay completely current. What do you do, Jack, if you don't mind my asking? *It looks as though you might be an electrical engineer. I owned a wire harness manufacturing concern for over a decade; but, my memory's not nearly as good as it used to be. *And, I had scores of reference materials back then that I could use to look this stuff up. I still have my SAE references (at home). *That doesn't do any good here at the office, though. *And I have a copy of the NEC 2004 (approximate year) on disk somewhere. On a quick search I found this link; http://www.prolinesafety.com/store/i...=55&ItemId=46& and it may be that the aluminum construction is the THWN. *When I wrote my note I was concerned with not confusing the TFFN with the THHN. * Actually, I still have it on my external drive, Jack. *I didn't think I would find it. *And it's been longer than I had thought. *Its the NEC2002: "310.14 Aluminum Conductor Material. Solid aluminum conductors 8, 10, and 12 AWG shall be made of an AA- 8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material. Stranded aluminum conductors 8 AWG through 1000 kcmil marked as Type RHH, RHW, XHHW, THW, THHW, THWN, THHN, service-entrance Type SE Style U and SE Style R shall be made of an AA-8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material." Ah, very good. Like I said, I don't have to keep up with this stuff in my job duties. Yep, I'm a EE, but at a communications equipment manufacturer, product owner role at this point. I refer to the NEC when I *have* to. :-) You sounded like an EE. I'm not an EE, but I had been doing EE design work for an engineering company that contracted with CAT. I designed and modeled harnesses for their mining trucks until earlier this year. Then CAT decided to 're-evaluate' their contracting services at the beginning of this year, to my misfortune. As far as the NEC, I have never cared to try to wind my way through it. It's way too regimented and detailed. Anyway, most of the EE's I've have worked with in the past have been great, down-to-earth people. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 9:28*pm, Jack wrote:
On Sep 17, 10:09*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 8:43*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 8:06*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13.6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, those are the same people who like to burn up folks in cheap mobile home fires. Seen it before. I think that has been regulated since the late '70's and early 80's. Another fire hazard is the splicing of aluminum and copper. *If I remember correctly, if there's no alternative, there's a compound that should be applied and a certain splicing procedure that needs to be followed to reduce the risk. *Still it's not the best practice. *It's been too long since I've researched it. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access Could be, I've heard of the type of splice, but in about any situation, even low-load, I can't stand the idea of using aluminum wiring. *ugh!*- It definitely got a bad rap in past years, but used correctly, AL isn't a problem. *I used it to sub-feed my shop with a 100 amp service. *With anti-corrosive paste and the proper torquing of the lugs, it's not an issue. Jack, what you listed is about everything the o.e's didn't do on the cheap trailers.... |
a Big Pump
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a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 8:49*pm, Jack wrote:
*My job does not require me to stay completely current. Oh! Out of phase, eh? |
a Big Pump
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:52:44 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote: On Sep 17, 8:49*pm, Jack wrote: *My job does not require me to stay completely current. Oh! Out of phase, eh? LOL! That's funny, Tim. Maybe it's just that Jack's a DC guy :) -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 10:39*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:26:21 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 10:20*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:00:32 -0500, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 9:35*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 8:47*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara wrote: On Sep 17, 6:30*pm, Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 4:32*pm, Jack wrote: On Sep 17, 3:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: On Sep 17, 2:24*pm, wrote: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch wrote: Bought a 3700 gph Rule pump for the Tolman just in case I take a lot of water. *My normal bilge pump is a 750 gph one. *I intend to find some smooth bore hose for it and some oversized wire to power it. Downside is, it was expensive and I will probably never use it. *Might even get a dedicated battery for it. You should only have to match the wire guage of the leads on your pump for your wiring. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service * * * * * * *-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access I will probably go up one wire guage due to the long run from the battery that will be on the floor of the bow. My reason for getting this pump is reading David Pascoes advice on the topic. You can go up a gauge; but, there's really no reason to do so. *The leads will be rated for the load. *What you'll generally run into on considerable wire lengths is a nominal increase in resistance. *Are your leads 16awg? *14 awg would work. *Where persons can get into trouble is going with smaller awg sizes. Your absolutely correct that going to a smaller wire size is what gets most people into trouble. *However, I wouldn't go with anything smaller than 12ga, and 10ga would be better. That pump is ratted at 15.5 amps @ 12vdc, and 20 amps @ 13..6vdc. Basing on a 25 foot *run or wire, and depending on how you come at it, the wire resistance of the smaller 14-16ga wire could have you dropping 3 - 4 volts down the wire. *The pump will not work nearly as well when it's only getting 9 - 10 *volts. At least with the 12 or 10ga wire, you're reducing the copper loss down to 1 - 2 volts, and the pump will thank you. Take a look athttp://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm*At the bottom of the page is a calculator that will let you plug in the voltage, current, length and wire size, and will tell you the copper loss and end voltage. Good luck!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I vote 10g. When I built the Tolman, I found 00 gage fully tinned battery cable for $3.00/ft on ebay and I used about 36' total (18' of black and 18' of red). Fully tinned or aluminum? *Quite often persons will mistake tinned copper for aluminum and aluminum for tinned copper. *Generally welding cable will have a straight copper construction. *Too, the higher MCM, i.e. 2/0, building wires like THHN will often be of an aluminum construction. *These are typical constructions though. *There are non-standard constructions out there. * True, but THHN is not spec'd to be used in a low-voltage boat wiring project. *My undestanding is that it, by definition, is a copper wire that is rated for residential and commercial building, to be installed in conduit or raceways. *There certainly is aluminum equivalent out there and lots of people use it to reduce cost, but it's not supposed to be designated THHN. *Also is pretty inflexible. The THHN designation essentially describes the insulation type, and you are right in stating the general applications where the wire using this type of construction is generally used. *THHN wire can be manufactured with either copper or an aluminum alloy. *Quite often the larger gauge constructions will use aluminum to reduce the cost of the product. *But, I've had more than one occasion where persons have confused aluminum with tinned copper and vice versa, not that this is true if Frogger's case. Maybe things have changed, but the following explains my understanding of the THHN designation: 1. SCOPE 1.1 This specification describes single conductor Rome THWN or THHN, a general purpose building wire insulated with polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and covered with a tough protective sheath of nylon intended for lighting and power circuits at 600 Volts or less, in residential, commercial and industrial buildings. The wire may be operated at 90oC maximum continuous temperature in dry locations and 75oC in wet locations and is listed by Underwriters Laboratories for use in accordance with Article 310 of the National Electrical Code. The wire shall also be C(UL) listed as Types T90 Nylon or TWN75, FT1 indicating suitability for use in accordance with the Canadian Code. 2. APPLICABLE STANDARDS 2.1 The following standards form a part of this specification to the extent specified herein: 2.1.1 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 83 for Thermoplastic Insulated Wires. 2.1.2 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 1063 for Machine-Tool Wires and Cables (Stranded items only). 2.1.3 Underwriters Laboratories Standard 758 for 105oC Appliance Wiring Materials (Stranded items only). 2.1.4 CSA Standard C22.2 No. 75 and Electrical Bulletin No. 1451 for Type T90 Nylon or TWN75. 3. CONDUCTORS 3.1 Conductors shall be solid, Class B or Class C stranded, annealed uncoated copper per UL Standards 83 or 1063. At least in the past aluminum was not allowed, but as I said, things may have changed in the latest UL standards. *My job does not require me to stay completely current. What do you do, Jack, if you don't mind my asking? *It looks as though you might be an electrical engineer. I owned a wire harness manufacturing concern for over a decade; but, my memory's not nearly as good as it used to be. *And, I had scores of reference materials back then that I could use to look this stuff up. I still have my SAE references (at home). *That doesn't do any good here at the office, though. *And I have a copy of the NEC 2004 (approximate year) on disk somewhere. On a quick search I found this link; http://www.prolinesafety.com/store/i...=55&ItemId=46& and it may be that the aluminum construction is the THWN. *When I wrote my note I was concerned with not confusing the TFFN with the THHN. * Actually, I still have it on my external drive, Jack. *I didn't think I would find it. *And it's been longer than I had thought. *Its the NEC2002: "310.14 Aluminum Conductor Material. Solid aluminum conductors 8, 10, and 12 AWG shall be made of an AA- 8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material. Stranded aluminum conductors 8 AWG through 1000 kcmil marked as Type RHH, RHW, XHHW, THW, THHW, THWN, THHN, service-entrance Type SE Style U and SE Style R shall be made of an AA-8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material." Ah, very good. *Like I said, I don't have to keep up with this stuff in my job duties. *Yep, I'm a EE, but at a communications equipment manufacturer, product owner role at this point. *I refer to the NEC when I *have* to. *:-) You sounded like an EE. *I'm not an EE, but I had been doing EE design work for an engineering company that contracted with CAT. *I designed and modeled harnesses for their mining trucks until earlier this year. Then CAT decided to 're-evaluate' their contracting services at the beginning of this year, to my misfortune. *As far as the NEC, I have never cared to try to wind my way through it. *It's way too regimented and detailed. * Anyway, most of the EE's I've have worked with in the past have been great, down-to-earth people. You are giving far too much credit to EE's... grin No offense taken.. Jack |
a Big Pump
On Sep 17, 11:57*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:52:44 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Sep 17, 8:49*pm, Jack wrote: *My job does not require me to stay completely current. Oh! Out of phase, eh? LOL! That's funny, Tim. *Maybe it's just that Jack's a DC guy :) I definitely do not go both ways! (AC does, ya know!) |
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