NiBN coating Aluminum props
 

H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 11:20 am, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
OK, here's an idea HK can help with. Last time I was at the marina at
St Marks, I was impressed by a bin full of dead aluminum props.
Actually, I was told that most could be salvaged but it prob would not
be worthwhile except for the larger ones. I asked "Why not coat Al
props with Nickel" and was told that any coating will wear off due to
cavitation and due to sand hitting it. he even showed me a prop that
had run through an oyster bar, NASTY.
However, I think the guy might be wrong. Electroless Ni adheres very
strongly. It is much harder than almost any other such coating too.
The Boron nitride electroless nickel alloys are both hard and slippery
so would resist such abrasion.
Thoughts?
Try carbonitriding. Read up on "Tenifer QPQ" Have a nice day.

Is carbonitriding done to Aluminum? I see it done to steel and in
fact measuring its thickness is one of our specialties.


Have fun:

An inductively coupled rf plasma as a medium for carbonitriding aluminum
Fayez El-Hossary, Niemat Negm, Sayed Khalil, Ahmad Abed Elrahman
(Physics Department, Faculty of Science, South Valley University, Sohag,
EGYPT), Lewis Watson (Mechanical Engineering, Strathclyde University,
Glasgow, UK)

The exceptional properties of aluminum nitride (AlN) have detained high
guarantee of advanced technological applications. An inductively coupled
rf plasma has been used to carbonitride aluminum (1050) at different
plasma conditions. X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS), X-ray
diffraction (XRD), microhardness indentation and surface microstructure
have been employed to investigate properties of the treated surface. The
thickness of the carbonitriding layer is very thin in which, the XRD
cannot detect it. However, XPS identified, after first run of sputtering
the surface, nitrogen-nitrogen and nitrogen-aluminum bonds. The
microhardness of the treated sample, at certain plasma conditions,
increases 71plasma conditions, we have studied, the temperature was high
enough to melt the Al surface and reform large grain structure with wide
grain boundaries. This form of structure could admit to the nitrogen and
carbon species to react with the bulk material through the wide grain
boundaries.

That's kind of far out science Krausie. Could you explain it to the
class. That is if you even have a clue as to what you cut and pasted. WAFA

NiBN coating Aluminum props
 

Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 2:02 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 12:41 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 12:20 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 11:20 am, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
OK, here's an idea HK can help with. Last time I was at the marina at
St Marks, I was impressed by a bin full of dead aluminum props.
Actually, I was told that most could be salvaged but it prob would not
be worthwhile except for the larger ones. I asked "Why not coat Al
props with Nickel" and was told that any coating will wear off due to
cavitation and due to sand hitting it. he even showed me a prop that
had run through an oyster bar, NASTY.
However, I think the guy might be wrong. Electroless Ni adheres very
strongly. It is much harder than almost any other such coating too.
The Boron nitride electroless nickel alloys are both hard and slippery
so would resist such abrasion.
Thoughts?
Try carbonitriding. Read up on "Tenifer QPQ" Have a nice day.
Is carbonitriding done to Aluminum? I see it done to steel and in
fact measuring its thickness is one of our specialties.
Have fun:
An inductively coupled rf plasma as a medium for carbonitriding aluminum
Fayez El-Hossary, Niemat Negm, Sayed Khalil, Ahmad Abed Elrahman
(Physics Department, Faculty of Science, South Valley University, Sohag,
EGYPT), Lewis Watson (Mechanical Engineering, Strathclyde University,
Glasgow, UK)
The exceptional properties of aluminum nitride (AlN) have detained high
guarantee of advanced technological applications. An inductively coupled
rf plasma has been used to carbonitride aluminum (1050) at different
plasma conditions. X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS), X-ray
diffraction (XRD), microhardness indentation and surface microstructure
have been employed to investigate properties of the treated surface. The
thickness of the carbonitriding layer is very thin in which, the XRD
cannot detect it. However, XPS identified, after first run of sputtering
the surface, nitrogen-nitrogen and nitrogen-aluminum bonds. The
microhardness of the treated sample, at certain plasma conditions,
increases 71plasma conditions, we have studied, the temperature was high
enough to melt the Al surface and reform large grain structure with wide
grain boundaries. This form of structure could admit to the nitrogen and
carbon species to react with the bulk material through the wide grain
boundaries.
Having to use XPS means it must be a very thin layer, probably less
than 10 nanometers, so maybe too thin for this app. OTOH, maybe they
did not have an electron microscope to use. XPS is really expensive
and sensitive to only first few atomic layers.
Carbontriding typically is a process used to "toughen" the exteriors of
non-stainless steel parts of semi-auto handguns. As an example, the
"slide" on a Glock pistol is carbontrided. The process adds a great deal
of "scratch resistance" and "rustproofing" to the slide.
When used on moving parts with really close tolerances, e.g., the
"botton" of the slide where it moves rapidly against the steel parts of
the frame of a Glock, it does wear through after a great deal of use.
I've measured steel parts that have been carbonitrided. The nitrogen
generally goes as deep as .016" on steel. I'd think that would be too
deep to wear out.
1. Glocks (and some other brands of semi-auto pistols) are carbonitrided
on their slides and other metal parts.

2. I have no knowledge of the "depth" of the carbonitriding on Glocks. I
assume if there was a benefit in putting on a heavier coating, Glock
would do it.

3. I have seen many Glocks with the top coat and the carbonitride worn
clear through to bare metal.

4. There is a small aftermarket business of "refinishing" Glocks on
which the bare metal shows.

I find it humorous that you and a couple of other righties here with
"scientific" backgrounds are so quick to assuming your beliefs with such
a great degree of certainty. Carbonitriding *will* wear off.

In your experience, how much wear ias there on such parts? Can you
estimate it in terms of thousands of an inch? Maybe in terms of
thickness of a human hair? I am actually serious about this.


Stop right there! Krausie has no experience. He's pretty good at
googleing stuff, if you care to have him look something up for you.

NiBN coating Aluminum props
 

On Sep 3, 4:59*pm, Jim wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 2:02 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 12:41 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 12:20 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 11:20 am, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
OK, here's an idea HK can help with. *Last time I was at the marina at
St Marks, I was impressed by a bin full of dead aluminum props.
Actually, I was told that most could be salvaged but it prob would not
be worthwhile except for the larger ones. *I asked "Why not coat Al
props with Nickel" and was told that any coating will wear off due to
cavitation and due to sand hitting it. *he even showed me a prop that
had run through an oyster bar, NASTY.
However, I think the guy might be wrong. *Electroless Ni adheres very
strongly. *It is much harder than almost any other such coating too.
The Boron nitride electroless nickel alloys are both hard and slippery
so would resist such abrasion.
Thoughts?
Try carbonitriding. Read up on "Tenifer QPQ" Have a nice day.
Is carbonitriding done to Aluminum? *I see it done to steel and in
fact measuring its thickness is one of our specialties.
Have fun:
An inductively coupled rf plasma as a medium for carbonitriding aluminum
Fayez El-Hossary, Niemat Negm, Sayed Khalil, Ahmad Abed Elrahman
(Physics Department, Faculty of Science, South Valley University, Sohag,
EGYPT), Lewis Watson (Mechanical Engineering, Strathclyde University,
Glasgow, UK)
The exceptional properties of aluminum nitride (AlN) have detained high
guarantee of advanced technological applications. An inductively coupled
rf plasma has been used to carbonitride aluminum (1050) at different
plasma conditions. X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS), X-ray
diffraction (XRD), microhardness indentation and surface microstructure
have been employed to investigate properties of the treated surface. The
thickness of the carbonitriding layer is very thin in which, the XRD
cannot detect it. However, XPS identified, after first run of sputtering
the surface, nitrogen-nitrogen and nitrogen-aluminum bonds. The
microhardness of the treated sample, at certain plasma conditions,
increases 71plasma conditions, we have studied, the temperature was high
enough to melt the Al surface and reform large grain structure with wide
grain boundaries. This form of structure could admit to the nitrogen and
carbon species to react with the bulk material through the wide grain
boundaries.
Having to use XPS means it must be a very thin layer, probably less
than 10 nanometers, so maybe too thin for this app. OTOH, maybe they
did not have an electron microscope to use. *XPS is really expensive
and sensitive to only first few atomic layers.
Carbontriding typically is a process used to "toughen" the exteriors of
non-stainless steel parts of semi-auto handguns. As an example, the
"slide" on a Glock pistol is carbontrided. The process adds a great deal
of "scratch resistance" and "rustproofing" to the slide.
When used on moving parts with really close tolerances, e.g., the
"botton" of the slide where it moves rapidly against the steel parts of
the frame of a Glock, it does wear through after a great deal of use..
I've measured steel parts that have been carbonitrided. *The nitrogen
generally goes as deep as .016" on steel. *I'd think that would be too
deep to wear out.
1. Glocks (and some other brands of semi-auto pistols) are carbonitrided
on their slides and other metal parts.

2. I have no knowledge of the "depth" of the carbonitriding on Glocks. I
assume if there was a benefit in putting on a heavier coating, Glock
would do it.

3. I have seen many Glocks with the top coat and the carbonitride worn
clear through to bare metal.

4. There is a small aftermarket business of "refinishing" Glocks on
which the bare metal shows.

I find it humorous that you and a couple of other righties here with
"scientific" backgrounds are so quick to assuming your beliefs with such
a great degree of certainty. Carbonitriding *will* wear off.

In your experience, how much wear ias there on such parts? *Can you
estimate it in terms of thousands of an inch? *Maybe in terms of
thickness of a human hair? *I am actually serious about this.

Stop right there! Krausie has no experience. He's pretty good at
googleing stuff, if you care to have him look something up for you.

XPS is X-ray Photo-electron Spectroscopy (Krause happened to hit on a
topic I really know well so be prepared for a dissertation) uses 1500
eV x-rays produced from an aluminum anode x-ray tube to excite
electrons from a sample. The emitted electrons energy is
characteristic of not just the elements but the chemical species as
well. However, it requires Ultra-high vacuum making it insanely
expensive. The penetration depth of the electrons is very low, only a
few tens of angstroms (.0000000001 meter) making it useful only for
extreme surface layers. Worse, poor vacuum will cause a complete
atomic layer to be added to the surface (ussually Oxygen and water
vapor) to form every few seconds which is why the insanely high vacuum
is required. The only way to achieve this good vacuum is to actually
bake the entire system by wrapping heating tape around it and heating
it up to over 150 C for a few hours to drive off all water. A cheap
XPS system costs around a million bucks and has limited uses compared
to an electron microscope that costs about $750,000 and can do a lot
more at easier vacuum.

NiBN coating Aluminum props
 

On Sep 3, 4:59*pm, Jim wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 2:02 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 12:41 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 12:20 pm, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 3, 11:20 am, H the K wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
OK, here's an idea HK can help with. *Last time I was at the marina at
St Marks, I was impressed by a bin full of dead aluminum props.
Actually, I was told that most could be salvaged but it prob would not
be worthwhile except for the larger ones. *I asked "Why not coat Al
props with Nickel" and was told that any coating will wear off due to
cavitation and due to sand hitting it. *he even showed me a prop that
had run through an oyster bar, NASTY.
However, I think the guy might be wrong. *Electroless Ni adheres very
strongly. *It is much harder than almost any other such coating too.
The Boron nitride electroless nickel alloys are both hard and slippery
so would resist such abrasion.
Thoughts?
Try carbonitriding. Read up on "Tenifer QPQ" Have a nice day.
Is carbonitriding done to Aluminum? *I see it done to steel and in
fact measuring its thickness is one of our specialties.
Have fun:
An inductively coupled rf plasma as a medium for carbonitriding aluminum
Fayez El-Hossary, Niemat Negm, Sayed Khalil, Ahmad Abed Elrahman
(Physics Department, Faculty of Science, South Valley University, Sohag,
EGYPT), Lewis Watson (Mechanical Engineering, Strathclyde University,
Glasgow, UK)
The exceptional properties of aluminum nitride (AlN) have detained high
guarantee of advanced technological applications. An inductively coupled
rf plasma has been used to carbonitride aluminum (1050) at different
plasma conditions. X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS), X-ray
diffraction (XRD), microhardness indentation and surface microstructure
have been employed to investigate properties of the treated surface. The
thickness of the carbonitriding layer is very thin in which, the XRD
cannot detect it. However, XPS identified, after first run of sputtering
the surface, nitrogen-nitrogen and nitrogen-aluminum bonds. The
microhardness of the treated sample, at certain plasma conditions,
increases 71plasma conditions, we have studied, the temperature was high
enough to melt the Al surface and reform large grain structure with wide
grain boundaries. This form of structure could admit to the nitrogen and
carbon species to react with the bulk material through the wide grain
boundaries.
Having to use XPS means it must be a very thin layer, probably less
than 10 nanometers, so maybe too thin for this app. OTOH, maybe they
did not have an electron microscope to use. *XPS is really expensive
and sensitive to only first few atomic layers.
Carbontriding typically is a process used to "toughen" the exteriors of
non-stainless steel parts of semi-auto handguns. As an example, the
"slide" on a Glock pistol is carbontrided. The process adds a great deal
of "scratch resistance" and "rustproofing" to the slide.
When used on moving parts with really close tolerances, e.g., the
"botton" of the slide where it moves rapidly against the steel parts of
the frame of a Glock, it does wear through after a great deal of use..
I've measured steel parts that have been carbonitrided. *The nitrogen
generally goes as deep as .016" on steel. *I'd think that would be too
deep to wear out.
1. Glocks (and some other brands of semi-auto pistols) are carbonitrided
on their slides and other metal parts.

2. I have no knowledge of the "depth" of the carbonitriding on Glocks. I
assume if there was a benefit in putting on a heavier coating, Glock
would do it.

3. I have seen many Glocks with the top coat and the carbonitride worn
clear through to bare metal.

4. There is a small aftermarket business of "refinishing" Glocks on
which the bare metal shows.

I find it humorous that you and a couple of other righties here with
"scientific" backgrounds are so quick to assuming your beliefs with such
a great degree of certainty. Carbonitriding *will* wear off.

In your experience, how much wear ias there on such parts? *Can you
estimate it in terms of thousands of an inch? *Maybe in terms of
thickness of a human hair? *I am actually serious about this.

Stop right there! Krausie has no experience. He's pretty good at
googleing stuff, if you care to have him look something up for you.

Krause is prob right. Another problem with such hardening is that the
parts become brittle from hydrogen getting into the metal. After the
hardening process, they should be baked for a long time to drive off
the hydrogen. A good shop will do so but most do not.
Having no familiarity with guns, I simply do not know the tolerances
necessary for firearms. Do parts fit as close as a couple sheets of
notebook paper (,006") or worse? After a lot of use does this
increase noticeably? Does heating during use change tolerances? I
really do not know enough to even ask good questions.