On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:05:38 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:02:27 -0400, NotNow penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|Most are in engineering, funny, though, NONE are in liberal arts!
|
|http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp

None, I suspect, have EVER been in liberal arts. But, then, how
civilized would we be without grammar, rhetoric, logic, geometry,
arithmetic, music, or astronomy?

Here's an interesting conundrum sparked by this thread and something I
was reading earlier this evening.

Eratosthenes was a Greek mathematician, poet, geographer, astronomer
and archivist being Chief Librarian of the Great Library of
Alexandria. Among other things, he invented the armillary sphere
(spherical astrolabe), wrote an algorithm for finding prime numbers up
to about 12,000,000 or thereabouts, calculated the circumference of
the Earth with 99% accuracy using nothing but sticks, a guy to walk
and measure the distance from Alexandria to Syene and basic geometry,
calculated the exact axis tilt of the Earth, and while his calculation
of distance to the Moon was off by about 20% (which was due to
refraction error of the atmosphere), he nailed the distance to the Sun
quite accurately, created an incredibly accurate map of the "world" as
it was known then, invented scientific chronology and wrote
extensively about the political, social and scientific events of his
time.

He was born in what is now Libya about 240 BC and did all of that
without a "university" or "college" education.

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.

There's an older woman here in town, 98 years young, who amassed a
huge fortune over the years by changing with the times, starting off
as a field hand for her father's farm and ending up owning one of the
manufacturing plants in Putnam which makes different kinds of line,
binding materials, threading machinery and the like. She was taught to
read the King James Bible and basic arithmetic by counting sheep,
cows, bales of hay, etc., and took off from there - not even an
elementary school education.

Consider this - Steve Jobs never graduated from Reed College only
spending one semester there. Wozniak dropped out of UC, Berkely after
his Freshman year, Gates dropped out of Harvard.

It's true even in the arts - Ansel Adams and Edward Weston never
attened institutes of higher "education", but became responsible for a
revolution in photography. A lot of the more famous artists and
painters like Georgia O'Keeffe didn't have a lot of formal art
education. Muscians much the same - Thelonious Monk, Artie Tatum,
etc., were self taught.

It's really a matter of what you are interested in and how much
curiosity you have that give credence to being "educated" - the formal
stuff, not so much.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.


A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.

If you are self-taught, *you* are the individual in charge of
determining what you expose yourself to during the process of learning.
If you go the formal route, there are many who can guide you, as
teachers, as colleagues, as fellow students, as group experiences.

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.


A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.

If you are self-taught, *you* are the individual in charge of
determining what you expose yourself to during the process of learning.
If you go the formal route, there are many who can guide you, as
teachers, as colleagues, as fellow students, as group experiences.

As you said, learning the wide scope of different world/cultural
experience, which is always formatted into a liberal arts curriculum
to some degree, is the important aspect.
What any individual derives from such an education it is highly
individual and varied.
My view is that if you can't widely analogize in the end, it's
somewhat of a failure. The ultimate goal is to come to an
understanding of a universal consciousness, if only momentarily.
It is not forgotten.
This always involves what we can call a Zen element, as an easily and
fairly widely "understood" term for that type of understanding.
Though some allowances can be made for one's physical appearance and
verbal skills, a good measure of success in your liberal arts
education is how well you can apply what you've learned toward scoring
with hot smart chicks.
Of course if you forego the education, money works just as well.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.

A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.

If you are self-taught, *you* are the individual in charge of
determining what you expose yourself to during the process of learning.
If you go the formal route, there are many who can guide you, as
teachers, as colleagues, as fellow students, as group experiences.

As you said, learning the wide scope of different world/cultural
experience, which is always formatted into a liberal arts curriculum
to some degree, is the important aspect.
What any individual derives from such an education it is highly
individual and varied.
My view is that if you can't widely analogize in the end, it's
somewhat of a failure. The ultimate goal is to come to an
understanding of a universal consciousness, if only momentarily.
It is not forgotten.
This always involves what we can call a Zen element, as an easily and
fairly widely "understood" term for that type of understanding.
Though some allowances can be made for one's physical appearance and
verbal skills, a good measure of success in your liberal arts
education is how well you can apply what you've learned toward scoring
with hot smart chicks.
Of course if you forego the education, money works just as well.

--Vic



Woody Guthrie had that understanding of universal consciousness, the
night he saw the movie "The Grapes of Wrath."

His song "Tom Joad" has the following lines:

"Ever'body might be just one big soul,
Well it looks that a-way to me.
Everywhere that you look, in the day or night,
That's where I'm a-gonna be, Ma,
That's where I'm a-gonna be.

"Wherever little children are hungry and cry,
Wherever people ain't free.
Wherever men are fightin' for their rights,
That's where I'm a-gonna be, Ma.
That's where I'm a-gonna be."


The book, the movie, and the song have a lot to say to Americans today,
especially as more and more are "tractored out by the Cats."

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 07:39:31 -0400, H the K
wrote:



Woody Guthrie had that understanding of universal consciousness, the
night he saw the movie "The Grapes of Wrath."

His song "Tom Joad" has the following lines:

"Ever'body might be just one big soul,
Well it looks that a-way to me.
Everywhere that you look, in the day or night,
That's where I'm a-gonna be, Ma,
That's where I'm a-gonna be.

"Wherever little children are hungry and cry,
Wherever people ain't free.
Wherever men are fightin' for their rights,
That's where I'm a-gonna be, Ma.
That's where I'm a-gonna be."


The book, the movie, and the song have a lot to say to Americans today,
especially as more and more are "tractored out by the Cats."

That reminds me I saw part of a piece on Lou Dobbs this week where
Anglos were going to work picking fruit because of the economy.
Didn't get all the details.
Every once in a while you run across somebody with universal
consciousness. They have an aura. Had it for a while myself in
spurts, but couldn't maintain it. 'Course, might be fooling myself.
Charisma is used sometimes, but I think that's different and doesn't
run as deep.
When my eldest son was a tot he wouldn't be away from my pants or his
ma's skirt.
I mean NOBODY got even close to him without him throwing a fit.
We visited a workmate one evening and the workmate's nephew was there.
Right when we walked into the room the nephew, a lanky guy of about 30
with a toothy smile, smiled at Luke and opened his arms. Luke ran
right into those arms. Never saw anything like it.
But I could feel this guy's aura. He had something.
Lots of things we don't understand, or don't work to understand.
Maybe more whiskey would help. Not sure.

--Vic

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.


A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.

Bull****. There has emerged a culture within the academic system in
which only one set of liberal or progressive ideas is believed and
discussed.

A study by Santa Clara University in 2002 demonstrated that among
social science and humanities professors nationwide, there are seven
Democrats to every lone Republican. In some fields, this ratio climbs
as high as 30-to-1.

This has serious implications for the spirited debate so central to
education. There is discrimination when dissertation topics that take
conservative positions receive harder, and harsher, scrutiny - not
because the evaluators have a conscious agenda they wish to advance,
but for the obvious reason that we are all instinctively more open to
an argument with which we agree.

I've experienced this and is one of the two reasons I'm not involved
in academia any more other than research/project consulting and
sitting on PhD review boards occasionally.

If you are self-taught, *you* are the individual in charge of
determining what you expose yourself to during the process of learning.
If you go the formal route, there are many who can guide you, as
teachers, as colleagues, as fellow students, as group experiences.

Doesn't surprize me at all that your general life's view as a
collectivist extends to education.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.

A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.




Bull****. There has emerged a culture within the academic system in
which only one set of liberal or progressive ideas is believed and
discussed.



Awwwww....Tom's ideology is going down the toilet, where, of course, it
belongs. You righties are getting stranger and stranger..."Black Man in
the White House" is really driving you over the edge.

Glad to see it.

On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:32:04 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.

A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.

Bull****. There has emerged a culture within the academic system in
which only one set of liberal or progressive ideas is believed and
discussed.

Awwwww....Tom's ideology is going down the toilet, where, of course, it
belongs. You righties are getting stranger and stranger..."Black Man in
the White House" is really driving you over the edge.

A black man in the White House is meaningless to a guy who won a court
case to adopt a homeless state orphan who was black. A black Marine's
blood runs in my veins and saved my life. I don't see color - I never
have, I never will. It's only "progressives" like you who see color
in humanity - ordinary people like me live the ideal of "not be judged
by the color of their skin but by the content of their character".

You owe me an apology.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:32:04 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.
A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.
Bull****. There has emerged a culture within the academic system in
which only one set of liberal or progressive ideas is believed and
discussed.
Awwwww....Tom's ideology is going down the toilet, where, of course, it
belongs. You righties are getting stranger and stranger..."Black Man in
the White House" is really driving you over the edge.

A black man in the White House is meaningless to a guy who won a court
case to adopt a homeless state orphan who was black. A black Marine's
blood runs in my veins and saved my life. I don't see color - I never
have, I never will. It's only "progressives" like you who see color
in humanity - ordinary people like me live the ideal of "not be judged
by the color of their skin but by the content of their character".

You owe me an apology.


Ok:

Tom's ideology is going down the toilet, where, of course, it belongs.
You righties are getting stranger and stranger. "Black Man in the White
House" is really driving all of you righties *except Tom* over the edge.

Better?





--
Birther-Deather-Tenther-Teabagger:
Idiots All

On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 09:58:28 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:32:04 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:33:08 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that "education" is really curiosity
and that formal education is merely a process by which information is
presented in ways that provide some order to the process and is not
essential for one to be "educated". Some of the smartest people I've
ever dealt with have high school educations, but are well and widely
read, have sound knowledge of basic mathematics (arithmetic, geometry
and trigonometry) and an insatiable curiosity about the world the
surrounds them and what goes on in it.

A good formal education is an indicator for many of intellectual
curiosity. It is much more than "merely a process."

While no one can deny the intellectual and worldly success of the
self-taught in many fields, the fact is that a college degree is at the
very least a rough indicator that its "owner" had enough self-discipline
to stick with a course of study, and satisfy the intellectual
requirements and standards for graduation.

At its best, a good formal liberal arts education forces you to think
way outside the box, and exposes you to ideas and people whose
backgrounds and thoughts are very different from yours.

Bull****. There has emerged a culture within the academic system in
which only one set of liberal or progressive ideas is believed and
discussed.

mindless rancor removed

A black man in the White House is meaningless to a guy who won a court
case to adopt a homeless state orphan who was black. A black Marine's
blood runs in my veins and saved my life.

Injured in combat? (I understand if you care not to respond.)

--
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