So what sort of an adjustable handicapping device could be used for
rolling practice to properly simulate aerated water -- and how could
you calibrate it? Thanks.

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:50:22 -0700 (PDT), Davej
wrote:

So what sort of an adjustable handicapping device could be used for
rolling practice to properly simulate aerated water -- and how could
you calibrate it? Thanks.

Maybe you could use aerators like in ponds and calibrate it by the cfm
consumption.

On Jul 17, 11:06*am, Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:50:22 -0700 (PDT), Davej
wrote:

So what sort of an adjustable handicapping device could be used for
rolling practice to properly simulate aerated water -- and how could
you calibrate it? Thanks.

Maybe you could use aerators like in ponds and calibrate it by the cfm
consumption.

Well, I was thinking more in the direction of a counter-torque applied
to the kayak by something like a float -- but maybe a better idea
would just be a paddle with extra small blade or maybe a blade drilled
full of holes?

Davej wrote:
On Jul 17, 11:06 am, Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:50:22 -0700 (PDT), Davej
wrote:

So what sort of an adjustable handicapping device could be used for
rolling practice to properly simulate aerated water -- and how could
you calibrate it? Thanks.
Maybe you could use aerators like in ponds and calibrate it by the cfm
consumption.

Well, I was thinking more in the direction of a counter-torque applied
to the kayak by something like a float -- but maybe a better idea
would just be a paddle with extra small blade or maybe a blade drilled
full of holes?


Why bother? Why not simply try to get a really bombproof roll that will
not only work when you are in aerated water, but when you are rolling
against even stronger forces countering your roll? If you manage to get
a roll that is 101% of the force of the aerated water, it might get you
up in that particular situation, but it won't do squat if you get into a
situation where you need 102%. For me, the most effective way of geting
a really good roll was to go playboating. Rolling up in every position
and from every flip as quickly as possible. The second best training
that was more useful when my basic left and right roll wasn't as good
yet was to go in the pool and get one or two buddies to counter my roll.
They would do that by either actively turning my boat against my roll,
or by flipping me again just when I was about to come up. That kind of
unplanned movement against my roll made my roll a lot better and more
bombproof than training to get just the exact situation that you would
encounter with aerated water.

Also, while you're at it, get a handroll. That makes the paddle a nice
force multiplier, but you can also roll up if there is very little for a
paddle to push against.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

On Jul 19, 5:22*am, Wilko wrote:

[...] For me, the most effective way of getting a really good roll was
to go playboating. Rolling up in every position and from every flip as
quickly as possible. The second best training that was more useful
when my basic left and right roll wasn't as good yet was to go in the
pool and get one or two buddies to counter my roll. They would do
that by either actively turning my boat against my roll, or by flipping
me again just when I was about to come up. That kind of
unplanned movement against my roll made my roll a lot better and more
bombproof than training to get just the exact situation that you would
encounter with aerated water.

Yes, you can have people jostle and torque the boat -- but how much
torque is the right amount to simulate aerated water?

On Jul 19, 7:53*am, Davej wrote:
On Jul 19, 5:22*am, Wilko wrote:



[...] For me, the most effective way of getting a really good roll was
to go playboating. Rolling up in every position and from every flip as
quickly as possible. The second best training that was more useful
when my basic left and right roll wasn't as good yet was to go in the
pool and get one or two buddies to counter my roll. They would do
that by either actively turning my boat against my roll, or by flipping
me again just when I was about to come up. That kind of
unplanned movement against my roll made my roll a lot better and more
bombproof than training to get just the exact situation that you would
encounter with aerated water.

Yes, you can have people jostle and torque the boat -- but how much
torque is the right amount to simulate aerated water?

The roll is not in the paddle. Otherwise there's be no such thing as a
hand roll!

The torque to rotate the boat to upright does not come from the
paddle, if the roll is done correctly, ergo the aeration of the water
is inconsequential.

John Kuthe...

On Jul 19, 3:16*pm, John Kuthe wrote:
On Jul 19, 7:53*am, Davej wrote:





On Jul 19, 5:22*am, Wilko wrote:

[...] For me, the most effective way of getting a really good roll was
to go playboating. Rolling up in every position and from every flip as
quickly as possible. The second best training that was more useful
when my basic left and right roll wasn't as good yet was to go in the
pool and get one or two buddies to counter my roll. They would do
that by either actively turning my boat against my roll, or by flipping
me again just when I was about to come up. That kind of
unplanned movement against my roll made my roll a lot better and more
bombproof than training to get just the exact situation that you would
encounter with aerated water.

Yes, you can have people jostle and torque the boat -- but how much
torque is the right amount to simulate aerated water?

The roll is not in the paddle. Otherwise there's be no such thing as a
hand roll!

The torque to rotate the boat to upright does not come from the
paddle, if the roll is done correctly, ergo the aeration of the water
is inconsequential.

John Kuthe...

Good point. Is there any value in practicing a roll by suspending a
kayak between two trees with ropes tied to the ends, and learning to
twist it upright with hip snaps alone?

--riverman

On Jul 19, 8:16*am, John Kuthe wrote:
On Jul 19, 7:53*am, Davej wrote:
On Jul 19, 5:22*am, Wilko wrote:

[...] For me, the most effective way of getting a really good roll was
to go playboating. Rolling up in every position and from every flip as
quickly as possible. The second best training that was more useful
when my basic left and right roll wasn't as good yet was to go in the
pool and get one or two buddies to counter my roll. They would do
that by either actively turning my boat against my roll, or by flipping
me again just when I was about to come up. That kind of
unplanned movement against my roll made my roll a lot better and
more bombproof than training to get just the exact situation that you
would encounter with aerated water.

Yes, you can have people jostle and torque the boat -- but how much
torque is the right amount to simulate aerated water?

The roll is not in the paddle. Otherwise there's be no such thing as a
hand roll!

The torque to rotate the boat to upright does not come from the
paddle, if the roll is done correctly, ergo the aeration of the water
is inconsequential.

Well, I guess that is a question for hand rollers. Can you hand roll
as easily in aerated water as you can in a pool? I would doubt it.

Hello riverman, you wrote:

John Kuthe...

The torque to rotate the boat to upright does not come from the
paddle, if the roll is done correctly, ergo the aeration of the
water is inconsequential.

riverman...

Good point. Is there any value in practicing a roll by suspending a
kayak between two trees with ropes tied to the ends, and learning
to twist it upright with hip snaps alone?

http://www.qajaqusa.org/Technique/ropegymnastics.htm

http://www.dubside.net/qajaasaarneq.cfm

Finally, a small comment about "bombproof" rolls...

Even after many years of hardly ever missing a roll when I really
needed it, I'm still wary of the "bombproof" concept. After all, if
I'm paddling along and a bomb is dropped on me, trying to roll back
up would probably be a moot point. Serioiusly though, while we
can--and should--constantly practice our rolling and other
self-rescue techniques, I think we might ultimately be doing
ourselves a disservice by convincing ourselves that we can develop
rolls that will, without doubt, always bring us up under any and all
circumstances. Overconfidence can really harsh one's mellow at just
the wrong moment.

Perhaps the most dangerous thing for anyone--in any field of
endeavor--is to feel that they've entirely "mastered" anything. For
one thing, life would be terribly boring if we ever got to the point
of being able to "duplicate perfection" at every turn, with nothing
more to learn (define "repeatable perfection", after all). When it
comes to self-rescue skills, convincing ourselves that we've actually
perfected a technique to the point of "bombproofness"-or perhaps more
appropriately "foolproofness"--is a fools game that could just turn a
fine paddling day into a tragic day.

No matter how good you are, only "beginner's mind" will help you get
better.

--
Melissa

Davej wrote:
On Jul 19, 8:16 am, John Kuthe wrote:
On Jul 19, 7:53 am, Davej wrote:
On Jul 19, 5:22 am, Wilko wrote:
[...] For me, the most effective way of getting a really good roll was
to go playboating. Rolling up in every position and from every flip as
quickly as possible. The second best training that was more useful
when my basic left and right roll wasn't as good yet was to go in the
pool and get one or two buddies to counter my roll. They would do
that by either actively turning my boat against my roll, or by flipping
me again just when I was about to come up. That kind of
unplanned movement against my roll made my roll a lot better and
more bombproof than training to get just the exact situation that you
would encounter with aerated water.
Yes, you can have people jostle and torque the boat -- but how much
torque is the right amount to simulate aerated water?
The roll is not in the paddle. Otherwise there's be no such thing as a
hand roll!

The torque to rotate the boat to upright does not come from the
paddle, if the roll is done correctly, ergo the aeration of the water
is inconsequential.

Well, I guess that is a question for hand rollers. Can you hand roll
as easily in aerated water as you can in a pool? I would doubt it.

That's not the point. The point is that you should not train a roll for
a certain specific situation. What you are asking is something that will
barely suffice in a specific situation. Someone who knows how to
handroll will have a much better normal roll simply because he doesn;t
make the mistake of relying too much on his paddle, and instead rolling
up mostly with their hips (not their hands!). That skill does transfer
readily to a normal roll, hence improving your roll wel beyond the mere
"aerated water" situation.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/