Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:27:05 -0400, BAR wrote:

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?
There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.
I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! :-)
Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

You major error, here, is that many, if not most, lawsuits are
frivolous.....


Balanced by caregivers posting record profits by charging $20 per
aspirin, etc.....

If you seriously want to engage in this one, I have documentary
evidence from my father's death where the hospital charged:

1) Fees for days and weeks after my father's death,
2) absurd costs to the tune of top dollar for prescriptions never
taken,.
3) doctor visits, which never happened, some after his death...
4) months of double billing Medicaid.....

I won't go on, but you get the picture....

Someone at the hospital should be in jail.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:48:03 -0400, BAR wrote:

Balanced by caregivers posting record profits by charging $20 per
aspirin, etc.....

If you seriously want to engage in this one, I have documentary
evidence from my father's death where the hospital charged:

1) Fees for days and weeks after my father's death,
2) absurd costs to the tune of top dollar for prescriptions never
taken,.
3) doctor visits, which never happened, some after his death...
4) months of double billing Medicaid.....

I won't go on, but you get the picture....

Someone at the hospital should be in jail.

Agreed but the jails are not big enough. It has become endemic in the
health care system.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..
The main reason why drugs are slow to be approved and why they are so
expensive here compared to other countries is there are lawyers on TV
every day saying "took this drug?, I can get you some money"

Americans pay for the R&D, most other countries pay fair market value.

You've overlooked the highly specialized nature of medicine these
days. I have recent experience with a close family member being in
the hospital for a couple of weeks. Each set of organs has an
advocate, kidneys, heart and lungs, vascular, etc. Each of those is
broken into those that administer medication and those that cure
through surgery.

Surely the care is better and so are outcomes but the cost of team
medicine is unbelievable.

The procedures themselves are also astoundingly expensive. $7K for a
MRI between session, technician and expert. Maybe a total of an hour
by all invested. That's insane. They're prescribed like candy.

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

It's ****ed up and has to change.

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.

Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!
There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.
A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.


So...what happened to the fingers? Were they sold on eBay?

"Zombie of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.



And people wonder why this country is in the mess it is in. Companies
share the blame as do politicians and lawyers. But the biggest blame goes
to the modern consumer and private citizen like this one who try to abuse
the system and get something for nothing. Thankfully there are still some
judges with a bit of common sense.

Eisboch

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:33:12 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.

That's a nice anecdote?

Any idea how much these lawsuits actually cost the industry?

I want to know if this is a real percentage or another welfare mom
driving a cadillac scare tactic.

On May 31, 9:37*pm, Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:27:05 -0400, BAR wrote:
Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" *With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut

Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.

I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! * :-)

Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

You major error, here, is that many, if not most, lawsuits are
frivolous.....



Right you are, Gene.

Speaking of....

The cartoons in this video may be weird but the words are so true.
Some of the claims this guy sings about I've heard. The American
people will sue for just about everything; even if it was there own
fault for the mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO9J...e=channel_page