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Uh oh. That will get a nasty retort from the apologist of all things
union-labeled, also known as Hairy Kraut. "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo |
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Eisboch wrote:
Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... That would be $8 an hour *without* any health care coverage, without any pension, without any fringes, and in an unhealthy, really dangerous workplace. Workers, after all, exist only to increase the wealth of the rich. That's part of the Republican credo. :) You really can sling it. None of those conditions exist, haven't for a long time and you know it. It's simply the union mantra. Eisboch Yeah, they do exist. There are plenty of places that pay **** an hour, are unsafe, and offer no health care coverage or any other fringes. Get out and smell the chemicals. |
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"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch |
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"Eisboch" wrote in message ... Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo I think he overstates the CAW/UAW in holding any cards. They are holding a bluff hand. Bond holders hold the cards. Lets see how they play them. Even the Chrylser deal is at risk as not all bond holders have been suckered into pennies on the dollar. |
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"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? It does show that the union extorted quite well for its members. But now the golden goose is mortally sick. Don't worry though, they are concocking plans to get taxpayers moneys, and it does not mater morally, ethically or otherwise that most of the taxpayers make less, many don't even have a pension. Playing right in the hands of the private equity that stands to make billions on bailouts as they hold a lot of GM paper. It is about greed, corruption...at the cost of taxpayers. |
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"Mike" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo I'd told my father in law for years that the UAW would kill the auto industry. He's retired GM UAW. When he was working, we'd get into huge arguments when they were undergoing contract "negotiations." All I heard was the union rhetoric... "we want, we want, we want." They completely lost sight of the fact that they had a JOB! And a well paying job at that... yet they wanted more. He has admitted now, that he's lucky that he is retired. --Mike Unions could not survive without the development of discontent and fostering the growth of greed. Hate to say it, but they are about bullying people and companies. Sort of like mini organised maffia of sorts. |
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"Canuck57" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo I think he overstates the CAW/UAW in holding any cards. They are holding a bluff hand. Bond holders hold the cards. Lets see how they play them. Even the Chrylser deal is at risk as not all bond holders have been suckered into pennies on the dollar. You are not up to date. The Chrysler bond holder ranks thinned and then those that remained threw in the towel due to political pressure brought on by Obama inspired negative public opinion. This was late last week. GM's bond holders are facing the same public opinion problem. Only difference is that there are many more of them. Eisboch |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch There's no reason to "directly contradict" or "debate" right-wingers because it would be the same as lying down with pigs in a pool of pig**** and expecting to come out clean. I read the article, and the conclusion is the same as all the other right-wing articles that state that auto workers in this country should work for peanuts. I especially liked the analogies between what the auto worker earns and what physicians can earn - that was funny stuff. I'm sure I've told you about my Norwegian buddies who work the offshore oil rigs and the supply boats. They make substantially less than their U.S. counterparts, but they live very well, and seem a lot happier than American works. Why? 1. First class national health care plan. 2. First class retirement plan that provides a really decent retirement. 3. No or extremely low cost college tuition. 4. A serious rehab program if they are injured on the job. One of my buddies lost use of an arm in a horrific accident. The government picked up all his medical bills, and sent him back to college to learn a new profession he would be able to handle. It also supported his family while he was learning a new profession. There are no disposable workers in his country. I've been to his house. He lives between Oslo and Lillehammer. Nice suburban house, very well insulated. Not huge, but comfy, well-built, and up to date. Come to think of it, he's probably retired by now. I'll take the right-wing rants about U.S. factory worker pay seriously once we have plans in place to make sure those who do that kind of work are treated like workers in other modern countries. Oh...and when the ratio in pay between top execs and line workers comes down from four or five hundred to one (or higher) to maybe 10 to 1. |
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"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch There's no reason to "directly contradict" or "debate" right-wingers because it would be the same as lying down with pigs in a pool of pig**** and expecting to come out clean. I read the article, and the conclusion is the same as all the other right-wing articles that state that auto workers in this country should work for peanuts. I especially liked the analogies between what the auto worker earns and what physicians can earn - that was funny stuff. I'm sure I've told you about my Norwegian buddies who work the offshore oil rigs and the supply boats. They make substantially less than their U.S. counterparts, but they live very well, and seem a lot happier than American works. Why? 1. First class national health care plan. 2. First class retirement plan that provides a really decent retirement. 3. No or extremely low cost college tuition. 4. A serious rehab program if they are injured on the job. One of my buddies lost use of an arm in a horrific accident. The government picked up all his medical bills, and sent him back to college to learn a new profession he would be able to handle. It also supported his family while he was learning a new profession. There are no disposable workers in his country. I've been to his house. He lives between Oslo and Lillehammer. Nice suburban house, very well insulated. Not huge, but comfy, well-built, and up to date. Come to think of it, he's probably retired by now. I'll take the right-wing rants about U.S. factory worker pay seriously once we have plans in place to make sure those who do that kind of work are treated like workers in other modern countries. Oh...and when the ratio in pay between top execs and line workers comes down from four or five hundred to one (or higher) to maybe 10 to 1. Knock. Knock. The USA is not Norway. The USA is not a euro-styled socialistic society. If that's what you advocate, be honest and say so. Otherwise your comparisons are meaningless. Eisboch |
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 08:44:18 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Canuck57" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message ... Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo I think he overstates the CAW/UAW in holding any cards. They are holding a bluff hand. Bond holders hold the cards. Lets see how they play them. Even the Chrylser deal is at risk as not all bond holders have been suckered into pennies on the dollar. You are not up to date. The Chrysler bond holder ranks thinned and then those that remained threw in the towel due to political pressure brought on by Obama inspired negative public opinion. This was late last week. GM's bond holders are facing the same public opinion problem. Only difference is that there are many more of them. And a lot of them are pension funds - like the State of California. Heh,heh, heh... |
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"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch There's no reason to "directly contradict" or "debate" right-wingers because it would be the same as lying down with pigs in a pool of pig**** and expecting to come out clean. I read the article, and the conclusion is the same as all the other right-wing articles that state that auto workers in this country should work for peanuts. I especially liked the analogies between what the auto worker earns and what physicians can earn - that was funny stuff. I'm sure I've told you about my Norwegian buddies who work the offshore oil rigs and the supply boats. They make substantially less than their U.S. counterparts, but they live very well, and seem a lot happier than American works. Why? 1. First class national health care plan. 2. First class retirement plan that provides a really decent retirement. 3. No or extremely low cost college tuition. 4. A serious rehab program if they are injured on the job. One of my buddies lost use of an arm in a horrific accident. The government picked up all his medical bills, and sent him back to college to learn a new profession he would be able to handle. It also supported his family while he was learning a new profession. There are no disposable workers in his country. I've been to his house. He lives between Oslo and Lillehammer. Nice suburban house, very well insulated. Not huge, but comfy, well-built, and up to date. Come to think of it, he's probably retired by now. BTW, I have relatives in both Sweden and Norway with whom we communicate occasionally. Like many, they have problems with some of our political leaders and policies, but overall the citizens of both countries have high regard for and a level of admiration for the US style of government and society. Given your demonstrated philosophies, it is understandable why you are so impressed by Norway. You have better things to say than many Norwegians. Must be a "grass is always greener" thing. Eisboch |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch There's no reason to "directly contradict" or "debate" right-wingers because it would be the same as lying down with pigs in a pool of pig**** and expecting to come out clean. I read the article, and the conclusion is the same as all the other right-wing articles that state that auto workers in this country should work for peanuts. I especially liked the analogies between what the auto worker earns and what physicians can earn - that was funny stuff. I'm sure I've told you about my Norwegian buddies who work the offshore oil rigs and the supply boats. They make substantially less than their U.S. counterparts, but they live very well, and seem a lot happier than American works. Why? 1. First class national health care plan. 2. First class retirement plan that provides a really decent retirement. 3. No or extremely low cost college tuition. 4. A serious rehab program if they are injured on the job. One of my buddies lost use of an arm in a horrific accident. The government picked up all his medical bills, and sent him back to college to learn a new profession he would be able to handle. It also supported his family while he was learning a new profession. There are no disposable workers in his country. I've been to his house. He lives between Oslo and Lillehammer. Nice suburban house, very well insulated. Not huge, but comfy, well-built, and up to date. Come to think of it, he's probably retired by now. I'll take the right-wing rants about U.S. factory worker pay seriously once we have plans in place to make sure those who do that kind of work are treated like workers in other modern countries. Oh...and when the ratio in pay between top execs and line workers comes down from four or five hundred to one (or higher) to maybe 10 to 1. Knock. Knock. The USA is not Norway. The USA is not a euro-styled socialistic society. If that's what you advocate, be honest and say so. Otherwise your comparisons are meaningless. Eisboch Well, I suppose I am "socialistic" enough to value labor at least as much as capital. Drastically cutting the pay of factory workers and eliminating their health care and retirement benefits is not acceptable. Might as well do away with safety regulations while we are at it, right? I mean anything that helps the rich get richer at the expense of the working middle class...why that's the new American way. |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch There's no reason to "directly contradict" or "debate" right-wingers because it would be the same as lying down with pigs in a pool of pig**** and expecting to come out clean. I read the article, and the conclusion is the same as all the other right-wing articles that state that auto workers in this country should work for peanuts. I especially liked the analogies between what the auto worker earns and what physicians can earn - that was funny stuff. I'm sure I've told you about my Norwegian buddies who work the offshore oil rigs and the supply boats. They make substantially less than their U.S. counterparts, but they live very well, and seem a lot happier than American works. Why? 1. First class national health care plan. 2. First class retirement plan that provides a really decent retirement. 3. No or extremely low cost college tuition. 4. A serious rehab program if they are injured on the job. One of my buddies lost use of an arm in a horrific accident. The government picked up all his medical bills, and sent him back to college to learn a new profession he would be able to handle. It also supported his family while he was learning a new profession. There are no disposable workers in his country. I've been to his house. He lives between Oslo and Lillehammer. Nice suburban house, very well insulated. Not huge, but comfy, well-built, and up to date. Come to think of it, he's probably retired by now. BTW, I have relatives in both Sweden and Norway with whom we communicate occasionally. Like many, they have problems with some of our political leaders and policies, but overall the citizens of both countries have high regard for and a level of admiration for the US style of government and society. Given your demonstrated philosophies, it is understandable why you are so impressed by Norway. You have better things to say than many Norwegians. Must be a "grass is always greener" thing. Eisboch Aside from my one visit to Norway, what I know about Norway (from a personal perspective point of view) is what I have been told by my Norwegian friends. The United States is disintegrating, and not because of creeping socialism. We're going downhill because we let greed become our most important guiding philosophy. Too much power and money is in the hands of too few, and for most of "them," what's most important is making more money, no matter how many others that sort of greed hurts. At some point, probably not in my lifetime or yours, the "have-nots" are going to revolt violent and restructure this country in ways that provide a decent way of life and some sort of security for the majority. The superrich? Why, they can move to China and exploit the billions who live there. |
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On May 11, 8:41*am, "Canuck57" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message m... Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...-giving-up-mor.... I'd told my father in law for years that the UAW would kill the auto industry. He's retired GM UAW. When he was working, we'd get into huge arguments when they were undergoing contract "negotiations." All I heard was the union rhetoric... "we want, we want, we want." They completely lost sight of the fact that they had a JOB! And a well paying job at that... yet they wanted more. He has admitted now, that he's lucky that he is retired. --Mike Unions could not survive without the development of discontent and fostering the growth of greed. *Hate to say it, but they are about bullying people and companies. *Sort of like mini organised maffia of sorts. You bunch make me laugh on here. The reason being you're blind to the truth in the matter. What about the VERY highly paid execs, who milked GM out of millions? They're never mentioned...funny. Waggoner should be shot. I'd say the " workers " are the LEAST greedy of the whole bunch. If there was no Union, we'd all get 8 bucks an hour. Try living on that, in todays " greedy " inflated economy. |
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HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? What's even more fun is watching you wriggle and squirm when the light shines on your favorite entities. |
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"HK" wrote in message m... Well, I suppose I am "socialistic" enough to value labor at least as much as capital. Drastically cutting the pay of factory workers and eliminating their health care and retirement benefits is not acceptable. Might as well do away with safety regulations while we are at it, right? I mean anything that helps the rich get richer at the expense of the working middle class...why that's the new American way. Look. I respect anyone willing to work. I value training, education and a willingness to acquire valuable skills. In the trades, licensed electricians, plumbers, etc., union or not, deserve whatever they can command in terms of pay or benefits. The UAW isn't exactly the same, IMO. Most members are high school grads at best with no specific trades or training before becoming an autoworker at GM, Chrysler or Ford. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Nothing wrong with that, but how they can expect wages and benefits that are well above the norm for the level of skill, training and qualifications required to do their job is something I cannot understand. It has nothing to do with rich versus poor. It has everything to do with being compensated commensurate with one's qualifications. If you and I were looking for a job as a journalist or copy writer for a newspaper or magazine, who is better qualified for a higher paying job? Eisboch |
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"HK" wrote in message m... The United States is disintegrating, and not because of creeping socialism. We're going downhill because we let greed become our most important guiding philosophy. Too much power and money is in the hands of too few, and for most of "them," what's most important is making more money, no matter how many others that sort of greed hurts. The US society swings like a pendulum. It recently reached the extent of travel to the right and has now reversed direction. It will hit the other extreem of it's travel again, only to repeat. It's one of the dynamic components of our system. At some point, probably not in my lifetime or yours, the "have-nots" are going to revolt violent and restructure this country in ways that provide a decent way of life and some sort of security for the majority. The superrich? Why, they can move to China and exploit the billions who live there. Never happen. The system requires a variety and diversity of skills, talent and interests. A football team is not made up of all running backs. Eisboch |
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wrote in message ... I'd say the " workers " are the LEAST greedy of the whole bunch. If there was no Union, we'd all get 8 bucks an hour. Try living on that, in todays " greedy " inflated economy. -------------------------------------- Do something to make yourself more valuable. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's the truth. You cannot expect to be paid as much as someone else who has worked to acquire skills and capabilities greater than yours, just because you exist. Eisboch |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Well, I suppose I am "socialistic" enough to value labor at least as much as capital. Drastically cutting the pay of factory workers and eliminating their health care and retirement benefits is not acceptable. Might as well do away with safety regulations while we are at it, right? I mean anything that helps the rich get richer at the expense of the working middle class...why that's the new American way. Look. I respect anyone willing to work. I value training, education and a willingness to acquire valuable skills. In the trades, licensed electricians, plumbers, etc., union or not, deserve whatever they can command in terms of pay or benefits. The UAW isn't exactly the same, IMO. Most members are high school grads at best with no specific trades or training before becoming an autoworker at GM, Chrysler or Ford. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Nothing wrong with that, but how they can expect wages and benefits that are well above the norm for the level of skill, training and qualifications required to do their job is something I cannot understand. It has nothing to do with rich versus poor. It has everything to do with being compensated commensurate with one's qualifications. If you and I were looking for a job as a journalist or copy writer for a newspaper or magazine, who is better qualified for a higher paying job? Eisboch There are many high-skilled jobs at the auto plants. Surely, a lot of workers come into the factories with few skills, but that doesn't mean they are untrainable and are without the ability to improve themselves. The unskilled workers start at jobs that don't require a lot of abilities, and they are paid less. More and more employers are going the "contract worker" route so they can entirely avoid any sort of fringe benefits. That works well in a crappy economy where easily exploited workers are in good supply. I don't resent auto workers making a lower middle class income. I do resent corporate suits earning 400 times a middle class income while he takes his company down the toilet. |
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"HK" wrote in message m... That would be $8 an hour *without* any health care coverage, without any pension, without any fringes, and in an unhealthy, really dangerous workplace. Workers, after all, exist only to increase the wealth of the rich. That's part of the Republican credo. :) You really can sling it. None of those conditions exist, haven't for a long time and you know it. It's simply the union mantra. Eisboch |
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Jim22208 wrote:
HK wrote: Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? What's even more fun is watching you wriggle and squirm when the light shines on your favorite entities. Chew on this for a while Krause. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...52942094&hl=en |
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On May 11, 9:21*am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "HK" wrote in message om... Eisboch wrote: "HK" wrote in message news:OeKdnYgATbSPFZrXnZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d@earthlink .com... Eisboch wrote: Interesting prospective on the UAW... http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...-giving-up-mor... It is always fun to read the right-wingers' rationalizations as to why the working man and woman should be paid ****, with no benefits. Serfdom uber alles, eh? Why is that? Seems like when you cannot directly contradict or debate facts you default to a generalized, "right-winger" attack. Eisboch There's no reason to "directly contradict" or "debate" right-wingers because it would be the same as lying down with pigs in a pool of pig**** and expecting to come out clean. I read the article, and the conclusion is the same as all the other right-wing articles that state that auto workers in this country should work for peanuts. I especially liked the analogies between what the auto worker earns and what physicians can earn - that was funny stuff. I'm sure I've told you about my Norwegian buddies who work the offshore oil rigs and the supply boats. They make substantially less than their U.S. counterparts, but they live very well, and seem a lot happier than American works. Why? 1. First class national health care plan. 2. First class retirement plan that provides a really decent retirement. |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Well, I suppose I am "socialistic" enough to value labor at least as much as capital. Drastically cutting the pay of factory workers and eliminating their health care and retirement benefits is not acceptable. Might as well do away with safety regulations while we are at it, right? I mean anything that helps the rich get richer at the expense of the working middle class...why that's the new American way. Look. I respect anyone willing to work. I value training, education and a willingness to acquire valuable skills. In the trades, licensed electricians, plumbers, etc., union or not, deserve whatever they can command in terms of pay or benefits. The UAW isn't exactly the same, IMO. Most members are high school grads at best with no specific trades or training before becoming an autoworker at GM, Chrysler or Ford. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Nothing wrong with that, but how they can expect wages and benefits that are well above the norm for the level of skill, training and qualifications required to do their job is something I cannot understand. It has nothing to do with rich versus poor. It has everything to do with being compensated commensurate with one's qualifications. If you and I were looking for a job as a journalist or copy writer for a newspaper or magazine, who is better qualified for a higher paying job? Eisboch I think you would be the choice even though your degree is not in spelling and grammar. SEE this. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...52942094&hl=en |
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wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 06:35:50 -0600, "Canuck57" wrote: http://seekingalpha.com/article/1366...e?source=yahoo I think he overstates the CAW/UAW in holding any cards. They are holding a bluff hand. It will all come down to that "ban the secret ballot" law. If the feds can get around state right to work laws the UAW might succeed in destroying the whole US auto industry and sending all of the plants to Mexico. Ah, yes...those state "Right to Work for Less" laws the right wing uses to make sure workers are no more than serfs. |
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D.Duck wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 13:58:28 -0400, HK wrote: My father in law had a VW beetle rolled over on the roof for parking it too close to the Delco plant in Kokomo. He sold it and bought a Nova after a snow plow destroyed it a couple months later. He got the hint. You have evidence the UAW was involved in either incident? More likely, the former was simply an expression of love from his fellow workers. ... and it is your fellow workers who will be twisting you arm until you sign the card. I still want to know, what is wrong with a secret ballot? It is how we elected Obama. Do you think as many suburban white people would have voted for him if they had to do it with the neighbors watching? He certainly polled a whole lot better here than the bumper stickers would have predicted and even better than the exit polls indicated. I believe I offered up a couple of URLs to you last week that described in some detail how employers pressure employees to vote the company's way, even after more than enough workers sign cards to indicate they want a union. Most of the arm-twisting comes from the employers. As in, "if you vote union, we're shut down this plant." "If you vote union or help the union in any way, we'll fire you." And so forth and so on. Obama carried almost every group of voters, and lots of us "suburban white people" wore Obama-Biden buttons to the polls. Exit polling isn't a lot more reliable than internet polling. Why can't the "secret" ballot process be sped up? Since Bush "de-balled" the NLRB, virtually all labor laws designed to protect workers have been flushed down the crapper. It's going to take Obama years to restaff the NLRB staff and the lawyer-judges-arbitrators, and changing procedures takes just as long. Many changes have to get the OK of Congress for implementation. There are literally dozens of ways employers can derail or delay union rep elections, and then, after the elections, the employers can refuse to negotiate a contract and play the stall game for years. |
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wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 08:46:22 -0400, HK wrote: wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:13:43 -0400, HK wrote: It will all come down to that "ban the secret ballot" law. If the feds can get around state right to work laws the UAW might succeed in destroying the whole US auto industry and sending all of the plants to Mexico. Ah, yes...those state "Right to Work for Less" laws the right wing uses to make sure workers are no more than serfs. ... as opposed to those "card check" states where a union goon supervises the workers decision to join? ;-) Gee, I've been working with labor unions since the 1970s, and have been involved in, literally, dozens of union representation elections. I've yet to see anyone on the union side exerting even the amount of pressure employers exert to sway the election. You were not with the UAW were you? My father in law had a VW beetle rolled over on the roof for parking it too close to the Delco plant in Kokomo. He sold it and bought a Nova after a snow plow destroyed it a couple months later. He got the hint. You have evidence the UAW was involved in either incident? More likely, the former was simply an expression of love from his fellow workers. When I lived in the Detroit area, the ad-pr agency I worked for had American Motors as a client. I was not on that account, but it was common knowledge at the agency that if you were heading out to AMC offices or a plant, you went out there in an American-built car so as not to offend management or workers. I had a good time the few years I was in Detroit. Great restaurants, great shopping, Sonny Eliot doing the weather and zoo reports, Canada right across the river... |
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On May 11, 1:58*pm, HK wrote:
wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 08:46:22 -0400, HK wrote: wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:13:43 -0400, HK wrote: It will all come down to that "ban the secret ballot" law. If the feds can get around state right to work laws the UAW might succeed in destroying the whole US auto industry and sending all of the plants to Mexico. Ah, yes...those state "Right to Work for Less" laws the right wing uses to make sure workers are no more than serfs. ... as opposed to those "card check" states where a union goon supervises the workers decision to join? *;-) Gee, I've been working with labor unions since the 1970s, and have been involved in, literally, dozens of union representation elections. I've yet to see anyone on the union side exerting even the amount of pressure employers exert to sway the election. You *were not with the UAW were you? My father in law had a VW beetle rolled over on the roof for parking it too close to the Delco plant in Kokomo. He sold it and bought a Nova after a snow plow destroyed it a couple months later. He got the hint. You have evidence the UAW was involved in either incident? More likely, the former was simply an expression of love from his fellow workers. When I lived in the Detroit area, the ad-pr agency I worked for had American Motors as a client. I was not on that account, but it was common knowledge at the agency that if you were heading out to AMC offices or a plant, you went out there in an American-built car so as not to offend management or workers. I had a good time the few years I was in Detroit. Great restaurants, great shopping, Sonny Eliot doing the weather and zoo reports, Canada right across the river...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Detroit's a hole. |
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:49:48 -0400, HK wrote:
Most of the arm-twisting comes from the employers. As in, "if you vote union, we're shut down this plant." "If you vote union or help the union in any way, we'll fire you." And so forth and so on. The first is a perfectly valid company threat. A company I worked for did just that when the union was voted in. Moved to Arkansas. Screwed the old-timers out of their pensions too. Got nothing to do with the secret ballot. Your second example just doesn't hold water. Getting fired on how you vote is impossible with a secret ballot. Management doesn't know how you voted. Duh. I told you before this card check won't work. Won't get through Congress. If there's anything wrong with the union vote process or management abuse, it can be handled by a strong NLRB. Taking away the secret ballot is plain un-American. Totally lame. --Vic |
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Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:49:48 -0400, HK wrote: Most of the arm-twisting comes from the employers. As in, "if you vote union, we're shut down this plant." "If you vote union or help the union in any way, we'll fire you." And so forth and so on. The first is a perfectly valid company threat. A company I worked for did just that when the union was voted in. Moved to Arkansas. Screwed the old-timers out of their pensions too. Got nothing to do with the secret ballot. Your second example just doesn't hold water. Getting fired on how you vote is impossible with a secret ballot. Management doesn't know how you voted. Duh. I told you before this card check won't work. Won't get through Congress. If there's anything wrong with the union vote process or management abuse, it can be handled by a strong NLRB. Taking away the secret ballot is plain un-American. Totally lame. --Vic I don't know what the chances are in Congress, but they'll probably improve when Franken is seated. We don't have a strong NLRB or strong labor laws that are enforced. Bush pretty much destroyed the NLRB, and OSHA, and the EPA. I get quite the chuckle over Republican/right wing whining about unions. It wasn't the unions that brought this country to its knees economically the last couple of years. It was the unbridled greed of wall street, the banking industry, and corporations. |
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On Mon, 11 May 2009 15:15:02 -0400, HK wrote:
We don't have a strong NLRB or strong labor laws that are enforced. Bush pretty much destroyed the NLRB, and OSHA, and the EPA. It's the Obama administration now. He can change that. No sense taking away the secret vote. I'm not an anti-union guy, but that would turn me into one. Wouldn't trust that a non-secret ballot accurately reflected the wishes of the workers. --Vic |
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On May 11, 3:15*pm, HK wrote:
It wasn't the unions that brought this country to its knees economically the last couple of years. Correct. They did it over the last couple of dozen years. It was the unbridled greed of wall street, the banking industry, and corporations. All facilitated by the Dems in Congress. Why else would all the powerful dems have been taking so much money while protecting them? |
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"HK" wrote in message m... D.Duck wrote: "HK" wrote in message m... wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 13:58:28 -0400, HK wrote: My father in law had a VW beetle rolled over on the roof for parking it too close to the Delco plant in Kokomo. He sold it and bought a Nova after a snow plow destroyed it a couple months later. He got the hint. You have evidence the UAW was involved in either incident? More likely, the former was simply an expression of love from his fellow workers. ... and it is your fellow workers who will be twisting you arm until you sign the card. I still want to know, what is wrong with a secret ballot? It is how we elected Obama. Do you think as many suburban white people would have voted for him if they had to do it with the neighbors watching? He certainly polled a whole lot better here than the bumper stickers would have predicted and even better than the exit polls indicated. I believe I offered up a couple of URLs to you last week that described in some detail how employers pressure employees to vote the company's way, even after more than enough workers sign cards to indicate they want a union. Most of the arm-twisting comes from the employers. As in, "if you vote union, we're shut down this plant." "If you vote union or help the union in any way, we'll fire you." And so forth and so on. Obama carried almost every group of voters, and lots of us "suburban white people" wore Obama-Biden buttons to the polls. Exit polling isn't a lot more reliable than internet polling. Why can't the "secret" ballot process be sped up? Since Bush "de-balled" the NLRB, virtually all labor laws designed to protect workers have been flushed down the crapper. It's going to take Obama years to restaff the NLRB staff and the lawyer-judges-arbitrators, and changing procedures takes just as long. Many changes have to get the OK of Congress for implementation. There are literally dozens of ways employers can derail or delay union rep elections, and then, after the elections, the employers can refuse to negotiate a contract and play the stall game for years. If I understand correctly it takes legislation to implement the card check process. Why not legislation to speed up the belt? I hate the idea of giving up the secret ballot. |
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D.Duck wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... D.Duck wrote: "HK" wrote in message m... wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 13:58:28 -0400, HK wrote: My father in law had a VW beetle rolled over on the roof for parking it too close to the Delco plant in Kokomo. He sold it and bought a Nova after a snow plow destroyed it a couple months later. He got the hint. You have evidence the UAW was involved in either incident? More likely, the former was simply an expression of love from his fellow workers. ... and it is your fellow workers who will be twisting you arm until you sign the card. I still want to know, what is wrong with a secret ballot? It is how we elected Obama. Do you think as many suburban white people would have voted for him if they had to do it with the neighbors watching? He certainly polled a whole lot better here than the bumper stickers would have predicted and even better than the exit polls indicated. I believe I offered up a couple of URLs to you last week that described in some detail how employers pressure employees to vote the company's way, even after more than enough workers sign cards to indicate they want a union. Most of the arm-twisting comes from the employers. As in, "if you vote union, we're shut down this plant." "If you vote union or help the union in any way, we'll fire you." And so forth and so on. Obama carried almost every group of voters, and lots of us "suburban white people" wore Obama-Biden buttons to the polls. Exit polling isn't a lot more reliable than internet polling. Why can't the "secret" ballot process be sped up? Since Bush "de-balled" the NLRB, virtually all labor laws designed to protect workers have been flushed down the crapper. It's going to take Obama years to restaff the NLRB staff and the lawyer-judges-arbitrators, and changing procedures takes just as long. Many changes have to get the OK of Congress for implementation. There are literally dozens of ways employers can derail or delay union rep elections, and then, after the elections, the employers can refuse to negotiate a contract and play the stall game for years. If I understand correctly it takes legislation to implement the card check process. Why not legislation to speed up the belt? I hate the idea of giving up the secret ballot. As I said, there are a lot more problems than employers stalling elections and scaring off their employees. |
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