The end of LORAN
 

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Again you find yourself in the minority. What's a renaissance man to
do?

The end of LORAN
 

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Again you find yourself in the minority. What's a renaissance man to
do?

Buy new tubes for my tires?

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 09, "Eisboch" wrote:
GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Me too.
I haven't checked my Loran lately though, to see if it's dead. Thanks
for the heads up. I knew it was slated to be canceled at some point
but I haven't seen any final shut down announcement. Maybe I've
mentally tuned them out along with all the shut down of analog TV
announcements? Anyhow, I hate to see it go.

Rick

The end of LORAN
 

On May 7, 11:16*am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"jps" wrote in message

...





On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Oh well. * It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. *LORAN is much more difficult to jam. * I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Again you find yourself in the minority. *What's a renaissance man to
do?

Buy new tubes for my tires?

Eisboch- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or new tubes for your black and white tv!

The end of LORAN
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 7 May 09, "Eisboch" wrote:
GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Me too.
I haven't checked my Loran lately though, to see if it's dead. Thanks
for the heads up. I knew it was slated to be canceled at some point
but I haven't seen any final shut down announcement. Maybe I've
mentally tuned them out along with all the shut down of analog TV
announcements? Anyhow, I hate to see it go.

Rick


Obama just announced it today, so it may take a while to phase out.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:49:00 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.
Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Exactly.

Very slippery people these Obamaminions. I never thought I'd live long
enough to see a President out slick Clinton, but this guy is a classic
slippery character.

It's all smoke and mirrors - OH LOOK OVER THERE and never mind what
I'm doing over here.



I *love* the right-wingnut consternation... :)

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)

This administration is brain dead.

The end of LORAN
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)

This administration is brain dead.


Awwwwwwww. The grapes of wrath are exceedingly sour, hey, Tom?

The end of LORAN
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)





This administration is brain dead.

And so are it's apologists.
Who would have thought there were so many Dilberts in this country?

The end of LORAN
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)

This administration is brain dead.


I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

Eisboch wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks
like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was
retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used
both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)

This administration is brain dead.


I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains
still use and prefer LORAN to GPS.

Eisboch

They are going to have to learn new tricks. Some of them, I'll bet, are
still using loran A, trying to steer to then stay on a TD line until it
crosses another particular TD line.

The end of LORAN
 

"jim78565" wrote in message
...


They are going to have to learn new tricks. Some of them, I'll bet, are
still using loran A, trying to steer to then stay on a TD line until it
crosses another particular TD line.


Well that's part of the resistance to GPS among the fishing crowd. They
have "TD" points saved for all their secret spots and at least the early GPS
systems couldn't directly transfer a TD to a waypoint.
I haven't checked but the newer units probably can do it.

Most of the systems I saw (and had) were LORAN-C. The Grand Banks had a
LORAN system (as well as GPS). The previous owner had travelled all over
in it, from Maine to South America and even through the Panama Canal. All
his navigational points were in the LORAN and not the GPS.

You remember Stanley and his brother Rob on "Polar Bear"? He isn't going
to take too kindly to the demise of LORAN.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:40:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)

This administration is brain dead.

I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.

Of course they haven't thought it through. The cost savings for a back
up navigation system is so minor in comparison to what "The One" is
proposing it's ridiculous.

17 billion dollars off a whopping 3.4 trillion dollar budget proposal.

3.4 trillion dollars.

But we're saving 17 billion!!!

3.4Trillion - that's illion with a T.

We're all screwed anyway, so I guess losing LORAN isn't a big deal in
the scheme of things.

..5% budget cut from 3.4 Trillion.

Brain dead doesn't even begin to adequately describe these bozos.

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 07 May 2009 12:26:10 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

I agree. It's a mistake.

In my opinion, instead of the minor "savings" by eliminating it, they
should upgrade it and promote it as a backup system to the extremely
vunerable GPS system.

And after watching "The One" in his "cost savings announcement", I'd
just like to say that it's much like telling your wife that your going
out to buy a $100,000 Mercedes and coming home with a $20,000 Toyota.
You "saved" $80,000. :)

This administration is brain dead.

Wow, you've developed empathy for our 8 years of suffering.

The end of LORAN
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:40:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.


Of course they haven't thought it through. The cost savings for a back
up navigation system is so minor in comparison to what "The One" is
proposing it's ridiculous.

17 billion dollars off a whopping 3.4 trillion dollar budget proposal.



Where did you come up with 17 billion?

Here's the "cost savings" to be had by shutting down LORAN:

"On 26 Feb 2009 the The U.S. Office of Management and Budget released the
first blueprint for the Financial Year 2010 budget.[7] This document
identifies the Loran-C system as "outdated" and supports its termination at
an estimated savings of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over five
years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

Chump change.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:25:30 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:40:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.


Of course they haven't thought it through. The cost savings for a back
up navigation system is so minor in comparison to what "The One" is
proposing it's ridiculous.

17 billion dollars off a whopping 3.4 trillion dollar budget proposal.

Where did you come up with 17 billion?

Here's the "cost savings" to be had by shutting down LORAN:

"On 26 Feb 2009 the The U.S. Office of Management and Budget released the
first blueprint for the Financial Year 2010 budget.[7] This document
identifies the Loran-C system as "outdated" and supports its termination at
an estimated savings of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over five
years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

Chump change.

That's the total package that the $36 million is part of - sorry for
the confusion.

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.

The end of LORAN
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:25:30 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:40:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:
I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.
Of course they haven't thought it through. The cost savings for a back
up navigation system is so minor in comparison to what "The One" is
proposing it's ridiculous.

17 billion dollars off a whopping 3.4 trillion dollar budget proposal.
Where did you come up with 17 billion?

Here's the "cost savings" to be had by shutting down LORAN:

"On 26 Feb 2009 the The U.S. Office of Management and Budget released the
first blueprint for the Financial Year 2010 budget.[7] This document
identifies the Loran-C system as "outdated" and supports its termination at
an estimated savings of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over five
years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

Chump change.

That's the total package that the $36 million is part of - sorry for
the confusion.

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Well, you went out to buy an outboard motor...and came back with an etec...

The end of LORAN
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

Eisboch wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Eisboch


No offense, but I'm getting a kick out of reading the posts of wealthy
retirees whining about funding for programs that might help people
without jobs or about to lose their jobs.

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:49:00 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.

Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Exactly.

Very slippery people these Obamaminions. I never thought I'd live long
enough to see a President out slick Clinton, but this guy is a classic
slippery character.

It's all smoke and mirrors - OH LOOK OVER THERE and never mind what
I'm doing over here.

The end of LORAN
 

"HK" wrote in message
m...
Eisboch wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in
business.

Eisboch


No offense, but I'm getting a kick out of reading the posts of wealthy
retirees whining about funding for programs that might help people without
jobs or about to lose their jobs.

No offense taken. I am entitled to my opinion as to what might help people
without jobs or about to lose them. Government handouts and "make work"
programs are not the answer. Temporary assistance in the form of
unemployment benefits, job training programs and investments/grants for
industry growth are good and will bear fruit.

Giving away $8 billion dollars of taxpayer's money to a dead automotive
company isn't.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Damn, there used to be spectacular quail hunting near the LORAN station
south of Searchlight, Nevada. If they take it out, I won't be able to go
quail hunting there any more.

Steve

The end of LORAN
 

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Oh well. It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like
it's dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained
due to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. LORAN is much more difficult to jam. I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Damn, there used to be spectacular quail hunting near the LORAN station
south of Searchlight, Nevada. If they take it out, I won't be able to go
quail hunting there any more.

Steve



Better go shoot quick before they turn it into condos.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 07 May 2009 16:10:35 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:49:00 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.

Oh. I get it. Then you give the $80K to Toyota to keep them in business.

Exactly.

Very slippery people these Obamaminions. I never thought I'd live long
enough to see a President out slick Clinton, but this guy is a classic
slippery character.

It's all smoke and mirrors - OH LOOK OVER THERE and never mind what
I'm doing over here.

And somehow that's more destructive than what we've lived through for
the past 8 years?

Hate to tell you but most people think the country is headed in the
right direction since Obama took over.

Maybe they're just not as smart as you that live on easy street.

The end of LORAN
 

On May 7, 10:05*am, jps wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:



Oh well. * It was nice having a backup system to GPS, but it looks like it's
dead.
I think it was Clinton who tried to dump it before but it was retained due
to an overwhelming protest by the military, commercial transportation
operations and the general boating/aviation public.

GPS can be jammed. *LORAN is much more difficult to jam. * I've used both
and although GPS is very good, I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

Eisboch

Again you find yourself in the minority. *What's a renaissance man to
do?

use a road map.

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

It was a huge step forward at the time but had serious limitations if
you used it a lot.

Loran was/is highly susceptible to interference from alternators,
ignition systems and thunderstorms - frequently resulting in total
loss of signal at inopportune times. I ended up installing a switch
to disable the alternator on one of my old sailboats so that I could
get a reliable position fix when I really needed it.

There are other issues that appear when you are too close to one of
the transmitting stations like the one on Nantucket or Jupiter,
Florida, or the geometry of the crossing LOPs was less than optimal.

Going offshore we used to lose the signals completely about 400 miles
out, not quite far enough to navigate to Bermuda.

I got a GPS as soon as they became readily available in the early '90s
and have never looked back. In 1994 the boat I was on took a near hit
from a lightening strike about 300 miles offshore. It knocked out
all of the electronics on board. We continued on to Bermuda using
nothing but my pocket GPS which I had recently purchased just before
the trip.

The end of LORAN
 

"HK" wrote in message
...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2009 15:25:30 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:40:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:
I don't think they are thinking it though. Virtually every
commercial
fisherman in my area and a large percentage of charter boat captains
still
use and prefer LORAN to GPS.
Of course they haven't thought it through. The cost savings for a back
up navigation system is so minor in comparison to what "The One" is
proposing it's ridiculous.

17 billion dollars off a whopping 3.4 trillion dollar budget proposal.
Where did you come up with 17 billion?

Here's the "cost savings" to be had by shutting down LORAN:

"On 26 Feb 2009 the The U.S. Office of Management and Budget released
the first blueprint for the Financial Year 2010 budget.[7] This document
identifies the Loran-C system as "outdated" and supports its termination
at an estimated savings of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over
five years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

Chump change.

That's the total package that the $36 million is part of - sorry for
the confusion.

Oh, by the way - the 17 billion? It's not a "cost savings" at all as
it turns out. Just on CNBC - it's being "re-directed" to more Obama
friendly proposals. So it's not a "cost savings" but a redirection of
the funds to other projects.

Like I said - you go out to buy $100,000 Mercedes and come back with a
$20,000 Toyota - you "saved" $80,000.


Well, you went out to buy an outboard motor...and came back with an
etec...

That's the exact opposite of Tom's statement you idiot. Oh I forgot, you
have a yammie OB... I'll type slower next time.

--Mike

The end of LORAN
 

On Thu, 07 May 2009 23:22:53 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I always liked the reliability of LORAN.

It was a huge step forward at the time but had serious limitations if
you used it a lot.

Loran was/is highly susceptible to interference from alternators,
ignition systems and thunderstorms - frequently resulting in total
loss of signal at inopportune times. I ended up installing a switch
to disable the alternator on one of my old sailboats so that I could
get a reliable position fix when I really needed it.

There are other issues that appear when you are too close to one of
the transmitting stations like the one on Nantucket or Jupiter,
Florida, or the geometry of the crossing LOPs was less than optimal.

Going offshore we used to lose the signals completely about 400 miles
out, not quite far enough to navigate to Bermuda.

I got a GPS as soon as they became readily available in the early '90s
and have never looked back. In 1994 the boat I was on took a near hit
from a lightening strike about 300 miles offshore. It knocked out
all of the electronics on board. We continued on to Bermuda using
nothing but my pocket GPS which I had recently purchased just before
the trip.

Those are all good points, but (ain't there always) the GPS system is
designed to be shut down, except for aircraft and military receivers,
in cases of national emergency. And the Chinese and Russians can
certainly reach out and touch the satellites either blinding them or
destroying them in fairly short order. And EMP (either natural or by
man caused diasters) can wreck havoc on ground recievers.

For the cost it takes to keep the system running as a back up to GPS,
it certainly seems cost effective. Heck, a few hundred million to
upgrade and do some research on improving the system - what's it gonna
hurt besides taking some organizing money away from the UAW and ACORN.

The same argument applies to LORAN as it does to Morse - simple to
use, effective and it does the job - perhaps not perfectly, but it
does do the job. Why kill it for the sake of a very minor cost savings
when it's potential to actually be useful is large and very real?

And if I remember correctly, there was some discussion at one time
about a new LORAN translator algorithym that was a better positioning
system, but nothing ever came of it. I wonder what happened to that?

Maybe it's being a Luddite, but this reliance on heavy technology is
going to bite humanity in the ass some day - simpler is always better.

The end of LORAN
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

On Thu, 07 May 2009 23:22:53 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:57:09 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

I always liked the reliability of LORAN.



It was a huge step forward at the time but had serious limitations if
you used it a lot.

Loran was/is highly susceptible to interference from alternators,
ignition systems and thunderstorms - frequently resulting in total
loss of signal at inopportune times. I ended up installing a switch
to disable the alternator on one of my old sailboats so that I could
get a reliable position fix when I really needed it.


And if I remember correctly, there was some discussion at one time
about a new LORAN translator algorithym that was a better positioning
system, but nothing ever came of it. I wonder what happened to that?


Wayne's points are good although frankly I have never experienced any
problems with interference of the signals. I also don't (didn't) use it
as much or as often as I am sure he has, so maybe it was just luck or the
fact that my area has strong signals. As I mentioned before, most of the
commercial fishing boats in this area still use LORAN, mainly out of habit
and familiarity.

LORAN-C and OMEGA were the primary electronic navigation aids for the US
Navy for many years before SATNAV (GPS) came upon the scene.

Tom, I think you are thinking of "e-LORAN". It was a proposed major
upgrade to the LORAN system, but never got off the ground to the best of my
knowledge.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:17:36 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Tom, I think you are thinking of "e-LORAN". It was a proposed major
upgrade to the LORAN system, but never got off the ground to the best of my
knowledge.

That's it - I tried looking it up. I couldn't remember what it was
called. Back in the early '80s there were some experiments that the
amateur radio community were asked to participate in - we used to run
around in our spare time cheking signal strengths and timing signals -
I guess it was dropped because by that time, GPS was just cranking up
big time.

The end of LORAN
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:17:36 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Tom, I think you are thinking of "e-LORAN". It was a proposed major
upgrade to the LORAN system, but never got off the ground to the best of
my
knowledge.

That's it - I tried looking it up. I couldn't remember what it was
called. Back in the early '80s there were some experiments that the
amateur radio community were asked to participate in - we used to run
around in our spare time cheking signal strengths and timing signals -
I guess it was dropped because by that time, GPS was just cranking up
big time.


Meaningless info:

Back in 1970 or thereabouts the ship I was on was retrofitted with a big,
George Jetson looking spiral antenna and a bunch of new electronics. A
team of civilian contractors came aboard and we
steamed around while they did tests. I was able to find out it was called
"SATNAV" and it was one of the first, if not the first, GPS systems to be
installed and tested on a Navy warship.

Also, the Russians were really the inspiration behind the concept for
satellite navigation, although they didn't realize it at the time. When
they launched Sputnik in 1957, American scientists monitored the radio
beacon signal that it transmitted and realized that the frequency shift due
to the Doppler effect allowed them to precisely determine it's position in
the sky. An idea was born.

Eisboch

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:53:10 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 8 May 2009 07:17:36 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Tom, I think you are thinking of "e-LORAN". It was a proposed major
upgrade to the LORAN system, but never got off the ground to the best of
my
knowledge.

That's it - I tried looking it up. I couldn't remember what it was
called. Back in the early '80s there were some experiments that the
amateur radio community were asked to participate in - we used to run
around in our spare time cheking signal strengths and timing signals -
I guess it was dropped because by that time, GPS was just cranking up
big time.

Meaningless info:

Back in 1970 or thereabouts the ship I was on was retrofitted with a big,
George Jetson looking spiral antenna and a bunch of new electronics. A
team of civilian contractors came aboard and we
steamed around while they did tests. I was able to find out it was called
"SATNAV" and it was one of the first, if not the first, GPS systems to be
installed and tested on a Navy warship.

More meaningless info:

1971 and it was inbetween survival classes at Kessler AFB. I was
friendly with a AF Master Sergeant who controlled the flight line and
occasionally I used to hang out with him on the flight line when I had
nothing else to do - former Marine who transferred to the AF. Anyway,
one day there were a bunch of civilians, AF captains and majors and
one full bird AF colonel working on a couple of T-38s with NASA
emblems on them. I asked the MS what was going on and he said it was
some kind of fancy nav system that went haywire in testing so they
brought the birds down at Kessler and brought in the big guns. He
wasn't sure but it had something to do with satellites. :)

Also, the Russians were really the inspiration behind the concept for
satellite navigation, although they didn't realize it at the time. When
they launched Sputnik in 1957, American scientists monitored the radio
beacon signal that it transmitted and realized that the frequency shift due
to the Doppler effect allowed them to precisely determine it's position in
the sky. An idea was born.

Oh gosh - this had to be in the late '50s, very early '60s. There was
a short story in a scifi anthology - I think it was an Omni magazine
anthology now that I think about it - titled "The East is Red" and it
detailed, almost down to the minutia, the comminications satellite and
GPS system as we know it today. The story was about the Chinese
launching this satellite system that not only took over the commercial
airwaves, but allowed for precise missile control and thus the Chinese
began to conquer the world - very cold war imagery, but the startling
thing was the details which actually came to be true in terms of
communications and positioning satellites. It was written by Sir
Arthur Clarke. :)

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 08 May 2009 09:02:27 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:



Oh gosh - this had to be in the late '50s, very early '60s. There was
a short story in a scifi anthology - I think it was an Omni magazine
anthology now that I think about it - titled "The East is Red" and it
detailed, almost down to the minutia, the comminications satellite and
GPS system as we know it today. The story was about the Chinese
launching this satellite system that not only took over the commercial
airwaves, but allowed for precise missile control and thus the Chinese
began to conquer the world - very cold war imagery, but the startling
thing was the details which actually came to be true in terms of
communications and positioning satellites. It was written by Sir
Arthur Clarke. :)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. BFD.
I want my transporter.

--Vic

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 08 May 2009 08:52:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 09:02:27 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:



Oh gosh - this had to be in the late '50s, very early '60s. There was
a short story in a scifi anthology - I think it was an Omni magazine
anthology now that I think about it - titled "The East is Red" and it
detailed, almost down to the minutia, the comminications satellite and
GPS system as we know it today. The story was about the Chinese
launching this satellite system that not only took over the commercial
airwaves, but allowed for precise missile control and thus the Chinese
began to conquer the world - very cold war imagery, but the startling
thing was the details which actually came to be true in terms of
communications and positioning satellites. It was written by Sir
Arthur Clarke. :)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. BFD.
I want my transporter.

Screw the transporter - I want my flying cars.

They promised flying cars by the year 2000 and it's nine years later.

WHERE IS MY FLYING CAR?!?!?!?!?

PS: Nasa thinks that warp drive is physically possible.

I'd take that over transporters or flying cars to tell the truth. :)

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 08 May 2009 10:03:29 -0400, Wizard of Woodstock
wrote:



PS: Nasa thinks that warp drive is physically possible.

Faster than the speed of light. News to me.

I'd take that over transporters or flying cars to tell the truth. :)

Depends. Does it have ABS?
Really, since I won't fly, I might have trouble stepping into/onto a
transporter. Do I get transported at 10,000 feet, underground, line
of sight?
I'm thinking just getting me transported into a UPS package car a few
feet away might do. Then let the Teamsters do the rest.

--Vic

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 08 May 2009 09:28:37 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 10:03:29 -0400, Wizard of Woodstock
wrote:



PS: Nasa thinks that warp drive is physically possible.

Faster than the speed of light. News to me.

I'd take that over transporters or flying cars to tell the truth. :)

Depends. Does it have ABS?
Really, since I won't fly, I might have trouble stepping into/onto a
transporter. Do I get transported at 10,000 feet, underground, line
of sight?

ROTFL!!!

You and Dr. McCoy. :)

I'm thinking just getting me transported into a UPS package car a few
feet away might do. Then let the Teamsters do the rest.

Funny you should mention UPS. I just bought some lenses from the
National Camera Exchange to fill in some gaps in my OM glass and they
had some Vivitar Series 1 long lenses that I don't have. Two of them
could be shipped USPS, the other had to be shipped UPS. I had all
three of them shipped Priority and paid extra for it. Funny thing -
went down to the post office and there were the two 28 mm lenses - one
a macro zoom and the other a straight 28 mm lens. One day from
Minneapolis. The 600 mm telephoto lens by UPS won't be here until
Monday at the earliest - both were shipped Wednesday at about the same
time.

Curious because it used to be the other way around. :)

The end of LORAN
 

On Fri, 08 May 2009 11:38:08 -0400, Wizard of Woodstock
wrote:



Funny you should mention UPS. I just bought some lenses from the
National Camera Exchange to fill in some gaps in my OM glass and they
had some Vivitar Series 1 long lenses that I don't have. Two of them
could be shipped USPS, the other had to be shipped UPS. I had all
three of them shipped Priority and paid extra for it. Funny thing -
went down to the post office and there were the two 28 mm lenses - one
a macro zoom and the other a straight 28 mm lens. One day from
Minneapolis. The 600 mm telephoto lens by UPS won't be here until
Monday at the earliest - both were shipped Wednesday at about the same
time.

Curious because it used to be the other way around. :)

I've noticed similar, and get good service from USPS. Ever see
a post office semi speeding like a maniac?
Maybe that's it. The UPS guys pretty much adhere to the speed limit.
I just got some DVD burners from Newegg shipped UPS, from California.
Ordered them Monday night and they came on Friday.
I clicked on the tracking link Thursday and saw they were in Des
Moines. Checked again early Friday morning and they were in
Northbrook, IL at 6:30 AM so I knew the package car would show up, and
it did. Worked at the Northbrook UPS for about 3 1/2 years
washing/fueling tractors and trailers when I was in college, and know
a bit about it from talking to the drivers.
They have hubs all over, and at least when I was there the max a road
driver would drive was 9-11 hours, but that's round trip. They have a
normal home life.
They do pull overnight, but don't work weekends. At least when I was
there. Dump a load, bring a load home.
Mostly older guys who came up through the package car ranks.
The unloaders/loaders and package car washers worked the midnight
shifts - two, since they were part-time, 4-hour shifts.
Mostly youngsters.
The package car drivers were pretty young too, and all hustle.
Smooth operation. Neat how you can track your package now.
Don't know how the post office works. I think they have a tracking
site too. But every time I've started to click on the link the
doorbell rings and the postman has delivered the package.
So they must be doing something right.

--Vic