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More on Govt designed cars
thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote: If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop. Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still, they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops? What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have made a real difference for us by now. |
More on Govt designed cars
On Fri, 01 May 2009 11:41:34 -0400, HK wrote:
What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have made a real difference for us by now. Well, if we are talking past history, imagine if Reagan hadn't dismantled Carter's initiative to be energy independent by the year 2000. It probably would have saved us from three wars, and prevented the largest transfer of wealth in human history. But hey, history is a bore. |
More on Govt designed cars
thunder wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote: If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop. Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still, they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops? Gas/eclectic technology is not new. It is at least 80 years old in this country. The first gas (fossil fuel)/electric systems appeared on the railroads in the thirties and became that standard engine about 1960. They are now the only system used on the major railroad lines. Chemistry dictates what can be done with batteries, and they can not be improved beyond a point that is dictated by the atomic structure of the atoms being used in the battery. ie. Nickel hydride, zinc/carbon etc. It does not matter what system is used for propulsion of a vehicle there is given amount of energy needed to move that vehicle. This is defined by basic physical equations on mass and velocity. What ever means of propulsion that is used the energy to propel that vehicle, it must be created, either in a fixed power plant, or on the vehicle with a gasoline or nuclear system. Batteries are storage system and not an energy source. As for the 100,000 miles, I have never had a vehicle that I did not have over 150000 miles on when I got rid of it. (a couple with 200000) The way cars are used today that is not abnormal. This means that when ever you bought a used car you will be looking at replacing the batteries. This will cause cars to depreciate even faster than today. |
More on Govt designed cars
"HK" wrote in message ... What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have made a real difference for us by now. Research and development of high density batteries for the automotive market has been going on for at least that long Harry. Technical breakthroughs come from many sources other than the automobile manufacturers, although they often help fund it. In the business I was in I visited two private research facilities that were working on high output density lithium batteries for the automotive market and promise of electric and hybrid cars. This was in the early 80's. One company was a relatively new start-up, the other an existing large battery manufacturer. I remember it well because the clean rooms in which the batteries were made and assembled had to be kept at 5 percent relative humidity or less because lithium is so reactive with water or water vapor. After putting on the "bunny suit" and entering the clean room area, you involuntarily gasped for a breath, the air was so dry. The scope of development is better done within organizations that specialize in the technology. Lithium batteries have come a long way, but they are still not really practical unless we all radically change our driving habits. And they still have to be charged which requires energy. Fuel cell technology is the future. Eisboch |
More on Govt designed cars
Keith Nuttle wrote:
thunder wrote: On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote: If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop. Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still, they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops? Gas/eclectic technology is not new. It is at least 80 years old in this country. The first gas (fossil fuel)/electric systems appeared on the railroads in the thirties and became that standard engine about 1960. They are now the only system used on the major railroad lines. Chemistry dictates what can be done with batteries, and they can not be improved beyond a point that is dictated by the atomic structure of the atoms being used in the battery. ie. Nickel hydride, zinc/carbon etc. It does not matter what system is used for propulsion of a vehicle there is given amount of energy needed to move that vehicle. This is defined by basic physical equations on mass and velocity. What ever means of propulsion that is used the energy to propel that vehicle, it must be created, either in a fixed power plant, or on the vehicle with a gasoline or nuclear system. Batteries are storage system and not an energy source. As for the 100,000 miles, I have never had a vehicle that I did not have over 150000 miles on when I got rid of it. (a couple with 200000) The way cars are used today that is not abnormal. This means that when ever you bought a used car you will be looking at replacing the batteries. This will cause cars to depreciate even faster than today. I made a mistake in my previous post. I should have specified commercial use for the gas/electric system. Gas/electric system have been used in the submarines in since 1900. |
OT electric cars was govt cars
On Fri, 01 May 2009 12:47:35 -0400, wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 11:41:34 -0400, HK wrote: thunder wrote: On Fri, 01 May 2009 08:26:44 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote: If you had a gasoline electric a 30 year old truck would be in the junk by now because of the cost of replacing the battery. From what I have heard they have to be replaced every 6 to 8 years depending on use. With that rate of depreciation they become disposable. Every one know the cost of replacing batteries in your old laptop. Geez, if everyone was as negative about new technologies as you are, we would still be driving horse and buggies, and forget computers. Still, they are now getting 100,000 miles out of present battery technology, and with standardization, and future innovations, battery life will improve and cost will come down. Remember the cost of those older laptops? What's really sad to me is that in the late 1970's, GM or Ford or Chrysler could have decided to allocate enough funds to develop the sort of batteries we need now to make "electric" cars affordable and practical. Twenty five years of solid, advancing development would have made a real difference for us by now. Battery technology has moved about as fast as the "battery" industry can move, not for cars but for portable electronics. Cars can bootstrap off of that. The real problem is electric cars only move that load from the gas pump to the electrical grid where we burn coal. Cars are cleaner than coal. Probably not for CO2. Coal power plant efficiency is about 40%. Gas engines are about 20%. Those figures are from http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index...3 &Itemid=102 There are other cites out there that might conflict, but because IC engines are so inefficient in converting fuel to power, there are "surprising" advantages to electric power. In the U.S electric power transmission losses are about 7%. That's pretty well established. There are misconceptions about this because most people don't realize how inefficient gasoline engines are compared to modern electric generation plants burning fossil fuels. Even though mileage is way up from older cars/engines, IC is still real inefficient. I remember reading about a possible cure for heat loss 40 years ago in Pop Mech. High-temp ceramic engines. Guess that was just a pipe-dream. As a former boilerman, I can tell you that even the Navy burning cheap black oil took heat conservation very seriously in the design of steam powerplants. The Navy mostly gave up on steam for propulsion, but I bet their fuel costs are much higher than in the past. Steam is still king for power generating plants. Of course there are other emissions from coal/gas plants, but scrubbing can eliminate most of them. People think electric cars are "free" but your typical little electric econobox will take somewhere between 20kwh and 40kwh depending on typical battery packs (14 or 28 6v batteries @ 240ah each). My electric bill would be $5 for the 28 battery "100 mile" car. Since the same Honda Civic (a popular electric conversion) would get about 30MPG on gas, it is pretty much a wash ... I didn't pay the road tax yet. Some states are already trying to find a way to road tax electrics. Better batteries might extend range by storing more energy but you still have to pay for the energy. I don't think anybody that puts a plug in or flips a switch thinks electricity is free. They've paid plenty of electric bills. Current lead batteries, a very mature technology, are only expected to have 600-800 charge cycles and they are $100 each. That adds $3.50 to your $5 charge or 8 1/2 cents a mile for the 100 mile car. The Li/on batteries in the Tesla are so expensive they don't even like to talk about it. I know these are off the cuff numbers but I have been looking into converting my old Prelude (a Civic in a sport jacket) to electric and I have been looking at what is out there. Even if I am off by a factor of two it is still hard to get the numbers to come out. It all depends on the electricity and gas prices. If gas goes to 5 bucks a gallon and the electric rates stay constant it's a new ball game. With the nukes in Florida I think your rates are low, aren't they? When you read the web sites that cater to electric car enthusiasts they all tell you, "don't plan on this being a cheap hobby". I think the Prius batteries have proven to go well over 100k miles. Aren't the newer models plug-in? If they are, can't they be used for retrofitting the home-mades? --Vic |
OT electric cars was govt cars
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More on Govt designed cars
jps wrote:
A heap for a truck definitely makes folks think twice about gettin' too close. Before I had the exhaust redone it had a nasty hole pre-muffler that was good for attracting attention and scaring the crap out of nearby drivers and pedestrians. Did it sound like a gunshot? Johnson |
OT electric cars was govt cars
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More on Govt designed cars
"Johnson" wrote in message ... jps wrote: A heap for a truck definitely makes folks think twice about gettin' too close. Before I had the exhaust redone it had a nasty hole pre-muffler that was good for attracting attention and scaring the crap out of nearby drivers and pedestrians. Did it sound like a gunshot? Johnson Remember what we did as kids with new licenses? Drove Dad's car down the street at speed and shut the ignition switch off for a few seconds, then turned it back on. The build up of fuel in the exhaust system usually blew a hole in the muffler if you were successful. Instant hot rod. Eisboch |
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