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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:55:27 -0700 (PDT), RobertH wrote:
The only potential advantage over in-line two wheelers is that, supposedly, it won't fall over. Weather & cargo too. -- Cliff |
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:32:35 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote: Instead if falling over, it would fall frontwards or backwards. Still falling over. HUH? Must be a winger. -- Cliff |
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:42:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Or... .you could say it has 4 wheels, which it does, All four are essential to the operation. How so? Or we could just be stupid Good point. -- Cliff |
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:38:02 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Apr 7, 10:22*pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...gbv=2&aq=f&oq= -- Cliff |
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On Apr 7, 9:05*pm, Charles Lessig wrote:
This reminds me of Smokey Stover's Foomobile except it has a top. http://tinyurl.com/cnks7f On Apr 7, 3:32*am, Cliff wrote: *http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...pr07,0,2638670..... [ GM, Segway think 2 wheels The companies plan to develop a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle as a clean, safe and inexpensive alternative to traditional cars. Associated Press April 7, 2009 New York -- A solution to the world's urban transportation problems could lie in two wheels, not four, according to executives of General Motors Corp. and Segway Inc. The companies plan to announce today that they are developing a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle designed to be a safe, inexpensive and clean alternative to traditional cars for cities across the world. The companies said their project, dubbed PUMA, for Personal Urban Mobility and Accessibility, would include a communications network allowing vehicles to interact with one another to regulate traffic flow and prevent crashes. The 300-pound prototype runs on a lithium-ion battery and dual electric motors and ..... ] I remember a popsci article where a fella built one of those, two wheels only, small gas engine, no electronic stability control, had a photo of someone on the hood trying to get it to tip, and could not tip it. Builder used a cool trick... Dave |
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wrote in message ... On Apr 8, 2:37 am, "Calif Bill" wrote: "Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message eonecommunications... wrote: On Apr 7, 9:50 am, Cliff wrote: On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:35:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I imagine it gently drops the front onto the casters, then brakes hard, wasted time and then limited braking force from the rear wheels. What rear wheels? -- Cliff If it were on the main/drive wheels and the front casters, for the purpose of describing vehicle dynamics it becomes appropriate to describe the main/drive wheels as the 'rear' wheels. Overall the vehicle has one (or two?) wheels in the back to prevent it rolling over backwards, the main drive wheels, and two (looks like 2) casters in the front. Dave Sure makes me wonder how it'd handle the snow and ice we get here in Red Sox Nation. (And it gets even WORSE elsewhere in the nation.) And how would it handle steep San Francico style hills? Anyone know how the Segway responds to icy sidewalks and steep hills? Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight. Actually Segways handle SF hills ok. There is at least one tour company that uses Segways.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There's a lot less mass to get up the hill. Think of one of the simple machines, the inclined plane. As the mass of the object increases, the force (work being done) increases. Small mass, small amount of batteries also. More hills, less distance traveled. I do see them on some hills, but most are down towards North Beach and the Marina Green area. Smaller hills than most. |
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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... On Apr 7, 6:56 pm, Jeff Wisnia wrote: Jim Wilkins wrote: [push a cart on a Segway] I'm having trouble visualizing that grocery cart thing. Where are each of your hands when you're pushing or pulling it? Is any other apparatus involved which hooks onto the cart? Maybe I could do it easily with an empty cart, but a full week's load of groceries takes me more than one hand to comfortably push (and steer). Jeff (Who's probably missing something here.....) Jeffry Wisnia I had to see it done first, too, with the overloaded trash hopper from the lab: http://www.yankeesupply.com/catalog/...ction/view.htm The Segway they loaned me was the older model with twist-grip steering. One hand on the steering grip, the other pushing the hopper. It took some practice but not as much as opening and maneuvering through the heavy, self-closing fire doors. It helps that in the Army I learned how to control the heavy floor buffers with one hand. Jim Wilkins _____________________ Theres actually a store that supplies Yankees? Bermuda shorts, blue wigs, black socks and white shoes? MMC (in Florida) |
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Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Apr 7, 10:22 pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta The Germans switched to larger cars as soon as they could afford them. When I was there in the early 1970's the various tiny cars were already curiosities and museum pieces. Personally I need a vehicle that will carry wheelchairs, 10' pipe, lumber, corrugated roofing, machinery, etc. Even if it were free an extra tiny vehicle that doesn't carry cargo would cost me more in insurance than it would save in gas, the CRV does all of the above, in any weather, and gets over 25 MPG. I've tried using a motorcycle with saddlebags for everything, including long camping trips. The real irony is that emissions and safety regulations eliminated vehicles such as the 1978 Accord I had, which would also hold 10' pipe internally and delivered 36 - 38 MPG in normal driving and well over 40 on a trip. I still have a 1980 one in round tuit status, the mandated changes dropped its mileage to barely 30. It was roomy and comfortable enough to hold my parents and me on a long trip around eastern Canada Jim Wilkins I remember those old Hondas--when they first started importing them in the '70s I think they claimed 50 mpg on the highway. Ironically, I've noticed that Honda recently came out with a car called a "Fit" which looks a bit like the Honda Civic of old. I'm sure it doesn't get nearly the same mileage though. For that matter, the "Smart" car doesn't get the mileage it should IMO to justify the tiny size. I'm just annoyed at Segway making another claim that they are going to change life as we know it on planet earth. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
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Blake wrote:
"Mark & Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message ... Jim Wilkins wrote: On Apr 7, 10:22 pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta The Germans switched to larger cars as soon as they could afford them. When I was there in the early 1970's the various tiny cars were already curiosities and museum pieces. Personally I need a vehicle that will carry wheelchairs, 10' pipe, lumber, corrugated roofing, machinery, etc. Even if it were free an extra tiny vehicle that doesn't carry cargo would cost me more in insurance than it would save in gas, the CRV does all of the above, in any weather, and gets over 25 MPG. I've tried using a motorcycle with saddlebags for everything, including long camping trips. The real irony is that emissions and safety regulations eliminated vehicles such as the 1978 Accord I had, which would also hold 10' pipe internally and delivered 36 - 38 MPG in normal driving and well over 40 on a trip. I still have a 1980 one in round tuit status, the mandated changes dropped its mileage to barely 30. It was roomy and comfortable enough to hold my parents and me on a long trip around eastern Canada Jim Wilkins I remember those old Hondas--when they first started importing them in the '70s I think they claimed 50 mpg on the highway. Ironically, I've noticed that Honda recently came out with a car called a "Fit" which looks a bit like the Honda Civic of old. I'm sure it doesn't get nearly the same mileage though. For that matter, the "Smart" car doesn't get the mileage it should IMO to justify the tiny size. I'm just annoyed at Segway making another claim that they are going to change life as we know it on planet earth. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 But they did. It wasn't a big change but it was a change. We went from being a world where no one used a Segway to being a world where some people do use Segways. :) I'm leaving tomorrow to visit the in laws in Seattle. I notice a far greater Segway presence there than I do here in New York. I get the sense there is far more bicycle commuting there as well, and bike racks on the buses. We're pretty backward here. ;-) Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
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"Mark & Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message ... Jim Wilkins wrote: On Apr 7, 10:22 pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta The Germans switched to larger cars as soon as they could afford them. When I was there in the early 1970's the various tiny cars were already curiosities and museum pieces. Personally I need a vehicle that will carry wheelchairs, 10' pipe, lumber, corrugated roofing, machinery, etc. Even if it were free an extra tiny vehicle that doesn't carry cargo would cost me more in insurance than it would save in gas, the CRV does all of the above, in any weather, and gets over 25 MPG. I've tried using a motorcycle with saddlebags for everything, including long camping trips. The real irony is that emissions and safety regulations eliminated vehicles such as the 1978 Accord I had, which would also hold 10' pipe internally and delivered 36 - 38 MPG in normal driving and well over 40 on a trip. I still have a 1980 one in round tuit status, the mandated changes dropped its mileage to barely 30. It was roomy and comfortable enough to hold my parents and me on a long trip around eastern Canada Jim Wilkins I remember those old Hondas--when they first started importing them in the '70s I think they claimed 50 mpg on the highway. Ironically, I've noticed that Honda recently came out with a car called a "Fit" which looks a bit like the Honda Civic of old. I'm sure it doesn't get nearly the same mileage though. For that matter, the "Smart" car doesn't get the mileage it should IMO to justify the tiny size. I'm just annoyed at Segway making another claim that they are going to change life as we know it on planet earth. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 But they did. It wasn't a big change but it was a change. We went from being a world where no one used a Segway to being a world where some people do use Segways. :) |
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 00:34:26 -0400, "Blake"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Apr 7, 6:01 pm, "Blake" wrote: "Rick" wrote in message ... Uh, the thing has 4 wheels... Pfffftttt... Look at the pictures;) yeah, just like a top fuel funny dragster has 6 wheels and really needs them And like a bicycle with training wheels; it's still a bicycle. The reference is to the main wheels. We might as well really act stupid and claim steering wheels count too. Or... .you could say it has 4 wheels, which it does, All four are essential to the operation. Or we could just be stupid and say those round things that keep it stable are not wheels.. A bike with training wheels has 4 wheels professor.. Now take your crossposting penis pullers and go back to your engineering group where you can all measure yourselves and argue about units of measure. You're too funny. People reply to your crossposted message and you insult them for crossposting. Lmaoay I counted six on the news photo Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:38:02 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Apr 7, 10:22*pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta The Germans switched to larger cars as soon as they could afford them. When I was there in the early 1970's the various tiny cars were already curiosities and museum pieces. No, this was a new design, basically a chair on three wheels that reclined further back at higher speeds. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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"Mark & Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message ... Jim Wilkins wrote: On Apr 7, 10:22 pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta The Germans switched to larger cars as soon as they could afford them. When I was there in the early 1970's the various tiny cars were already curiosities and museum pieces. Personally I need a vehicle that will carry wheelchairs, 10' pipe, lumber, corrugated roofing, machinery, etc. Even if it were free an extra tiny vehicle that doesn't carry cargo would cost me more in insurance than it would save in gas, the CRV does all of the above, in any weather, and gets over 25 MPG. I've tried using a motorcycle with saddlebags for everything, including long camping trips. The real irony is that emissions and safety regulations eliminated vehicles such as the 1978 Accord I had, which would also hold 10' pipe internally and delivered 36 - 38 MPG in normal driving and well over 40 on a trip. I still have a 1980 one in round tuit status, the mandated changes dropped its mileage to barely 30. It was roomy and comfortable enough to hold my parents and me on a long trip around eastern Canada Jim Wilkins I remember those old Hondas--when they first started importing them in the '70s I think they claimed 50 mpg on the highway. Ironically, I've noticed that Honda recently came out with a car called a "Fit" which looks a bit like the Honda Civic of old. I'm sure it doesn't get nearly the same mileage though. For that matter, the "Smart" car doesn't get the mileage it should IMO to justify the tiny size. I'm just annoyed at Segway making another claim that they are going to change life as we know it on planet earth. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 The first Honda car imports were real POS vehicles. Banned from the road in Calif. They were 500cc motorcyle engine with chain drive cars. |
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"Cliff" wrote in message ... On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:32:35 -0700, "Calif Bill" wrote: Instead if falling over, it would fall frontwards or backwards. Still falling over. HUH? Must be a winger. -- Cliff If it had wings it might fly. |
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On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:15:02 -0400, Gerald Miller
wrote: On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:38:02 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: On Apr 7, 10:22*pm, Gerald Miller wrote: ... Which was it, Honda or Toyota came up with a more elaborate version of this that was shown on TV a few months back. IIRC it had three wheels and only carried one person. Looked somewhat like Granny's rocking chair! Gerry :-)} Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta The Germans switched to larger cars as soon as they could afford them. When I was there in the early 1970's the various tiny cars were already curiosities and museum pieces. No, this was a new design, basically a chair on three wheels that reclined further back at higher speeds. Gerry :-)} London, Canada See: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/p_mo...eal/index.html Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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On Apr 7, 3:06 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Apr 7, 1:55 pm, RobertH wrote: The only potential advantage over in-line two wheelers is that, supposedly, it won't fall over. ... Ever try one? Bicycles and crowds of people don't mix well at all because of the difficulty of starting and stopping and the need to maintain some speed to balance. Segways stop and stand still easily, like pedestrians. Could you push a grocery store shopping cart with a standard bicycle? You can easily on a Segway, or spin around in place to pull it. Segways are pretty cool, but I'd wager that anything you can haul with a Segway I could haul with a standard bike. Could be a John Henry moment. Several times I have pulled dollies/hand carts with around 200 pounds on a standard bicycle. |
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:32:49 -0400, Cliff wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,2638670.story [ GM, Segway think 2 wheels The companies plan to develop a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle as a clean, safe and inexpensive alternative to traditional cars. Associated Press April 7, 2009 New York -- A solution to the world's urban transportation problems could lie in two wheels, not four, according to executives of General Motors Corp. and Segway Inc. The companies plan to announce today that they are developing a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle designed to be a safe, inexpensive and clean alternative to traditional cars for cities across the world. The companies said their project, dubbed PUMA, for Personal Urban Mobility and Accessibility, would include a communications network allowing vehicles to interact with one another to regulate traffic flow and prevent crashes. The 300-pound prototype runs on a lithium-ion battery and dual electric motors and ..... ] More (with more detail): http://www.technewsworld.com/story/G...r-2-66751.html -- Cliff |
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:53:40 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote: Plus you get much of the energy back going down I think ... -- Cliff I doubt they have regenerative braking. http://www.technewsworld.com/story/G...r-2-66751.html "Features include electronic acceleration, steering and braking; vehicle-to-vehicle communications; and autonomous driving and parking." They'd probably lose too much energy without it. http://www.segway.com/puma/ "Add in regenerative braking capability (being able to recharge while decelerating) and that’s some smart battery tech." -- Cliff |
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On Apr 9, 12:29*am, RobertH wrote:
On Apr 7, 3:06 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote: Segways are pretty cool, but I'd wager that anything you can haul with a Segway I could haul with a standard bike. Could be a John Henry moment. Several times I have pulled dollies/hand carts with around 200 pounds on a standard bicycle. I'm sure you could in wide-open vehicle spaces, I've hauled a small boat many miles with a bicycle. Either can transport me + the other one, so I could ride upstream, float down, then ride home. Segways also operate just fine in people spaces, like office aisles, while unless you stop and muscle it around a bicycle isn't much more maneuverable indoors than a forklift. The GM plant where I worked for a while had pedal trikes for people who carried stuff around. They were safer because they didn't have a minimum speed for balance. Electric motors generate a voltage proportional to their RPM, the Back EMF. When they are externally spun fast enough the Back EMF can be rectified to recharge the batteries. That's all that that basic Regenerative Braking amounts to. Jim Wilkins |
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:00:50 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote: It helps that in the Army I learned how to control the heavy floor buffers with one hand. I generally had a beer in the other hand. Casady |
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"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:00:50 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: It helps that in the Army I learned how to control the heavy floor buffers with one hand. I generally had a beer in the other hand. Casady Crap. I thought that talent was exclusive to us Navy types. Those things were intimidating at first until you got the hang of it. After that, it was a two finger operation. Eisboch |
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wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:25:23 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:00:50 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: It helps that in the Army I learned how to control the heavy floor buffers with one hand. I generally had a beer in the other hand. Casady Crap. I thought that talent was exclusive to us Navy types. Those things were intimidating at first until you got the hang of it. After that, it was a two finger operation. Eisboch Once you get the hang of that big buffer you can also use it's little brother, the DA and that gets us back to boats. ;-) You need the same touch when you are prepping for your paint job. The difference is if you let the DA dig an edge in you will have a gouge that takes an hour to fill and buff out. If the floor buffer catches an edge it will yank you half way across the room. Not the airforce buffers. They just took a leg off a nearby table. :) Or at least bent the leg. |
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wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:22:06 -0700, "Calif Bill" wrote: If the floor buffer catches an edge it will yank you half way across the room. Not the airforce buffers. They just took a leg off a nearby table. :) Or at least bent the leg. We all used the same buffer, I was just assuming you didn't hit anything. My wife just bought one for her guys to play with at the country club. Same thing, a 1.5 HP motor spinning a 20" disk at 175 RPM. Always seemed to be something in the way. Or we went out of the way to get something in the way. |
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Calif Bill wrote:
wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:25:23 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:00:50 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: It helps that in the Army I learned how to control the heavy floor buffers with one hand. I generally had a beer in the other hand. Casady Crap. I thought that talent was exclusive to us Navy types. Those things were intimidating at first until you got the hang of it. After that, it was a two finger operation. Eisboch Once you get the hang of that big buffer you can also use it's little brother, the DA and that gets us back to boats. ;-) You need the same touch when you are prepping for your paint job. The difference is if you let the DA dig an edge in you will have a gouge that takes an hour to fill and buff out. If the floor buffer catches an edge it will yank you half way across the room. Not the airforce buffers. They just took a leg off a nearby table. :) Or at least bent the leg. The navy sent their defective buffers to the Air Force. |
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"Jim22208" wrote in message ... Calif Bill wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:25:23 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 04:00:50 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: It helps that in the Army I learned how to control the heavy floor buffers with one hand. I generally had a beer in the other hand. Casady Crap. I thought that talent was exclusive to us Navy types. Those things were intimidating at first until you got the hang of it. After that, it was a two finger operation. Eisboch Once you get the hang of that big buffer you can also use it's little brother, the DA and that gets us back to boats. ;-) You need the same touch when you are prepping for your paint job. The difference is if you let the DA dig an edge in you will have a gouge that takes an hour to fill and buff out. If the floor buffer catches an edge it will yank you half way across the room. Not the airforce buffers. They just took a leg off a nearby table. :) Or at least bent the leg. The navy sent their defective buffers to the Air Force. They were not defective, the airmen were. |
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:32:49 -0400, Cliff wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gm- segway7-2009apr07,0,2638670.story [ GM, Segway think 2 wheels The companies plan to develop a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle as a clean, safe and inexpensive alternative to traditional cars. Allright, so GM's idea for the comeback is to put a chair on a Segway. They truly deserve what's coming to them. -- Przemek Klosowski, Ph.D. przemek.klosowski at gmail |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:04:23 GMT, przemek klosowski
wrote: On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:32:49 -0400, Cliff wrote: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gm- segway7-2009apr07,0,2638670.story [ GM, Segway think 2 wheels The companies plan to develop a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle as a clean, safe and inexpensive alternative to traditional cars. Allright, so GM's idea for the comeback is to put a chair on a Segway. They truly deserve what's coming to them. I think I have the solution for the problems of GM and Chrysler. Some time ago Chrysler bought up Jeep and now they are building a 4 door version that is trying to be a Hummer. GM bought up Hummer and have been working it over to more closely resemble a 4 door jeep. Now what they need to do is merge them into the Jeep H3 or should that be the Hummer YJ? Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:04:23 GMT, przemek klosowski
wrote: On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:32:49 -0400, Cliff wrote: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gm- segway7-2009apr07,0,2638670.story [ GM, Segway think 2 wheels The companies plan to develop a two-wheeled, two-seat electric vehicle as a clean, safe and inexpensive alternative to traditional cars. Allright, so GM's idea for the comeback is to put a chair on a Segway. They truly deserve what's coming to them. It's not a bad idea & the costs seem small. Use GM battery & other GM tech & GM dealers .... good for the green urban commute. Good practical test bed & public demo for other advanced GM tech too. Still don't know about heat & A/C. Better & safer than bikes. -- Cliff |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:04:23 GMT, przemek klosowski
wrote: Allright, so GM's idea for the comeback is to put a chair on a Segway. They truly deserve what's coming to them. GM cars have been second rate for at least thirty years. We paid seven grand for a Lumina with ten thou on it. We call it the ****box. Not even a classic Limey ****box[TM]. Those often had, at least, a kind of useless charm. Casady |
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