"D.Duck" wrote in message
...


Forgetting for a moment who the *pusher(s)* was, it really doesn't matter.
I often wonder what the economic climate would be like today if the banks
weren't pushed into providing less that ideal home loans.


Prophetic:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C0A96F9582 60

"HK" wrote in message
...



Well, of course. Uncharted territory. Obama is trying lots of different
things and like most of us, hope some of them work properly. We've given
up entirely on Republican drip down.


The shotgun approach can be effective but is incredibly inefficient and
requires little thought.
Just shoot in the direction of anything that moves.

Eisboch

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 05:36:20 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"HK" wrote in message
...



Well, of course. Uncharted territory. Obama is trying lots of different
things and like most of us, hope some of them work properly. We've given
up entirely on Republican drip down.


The shotgun approach can be effective but is incredibly inefficient and
requires little thought.
Just shoot in the direction of anything that moves.

I don't think it's shotgun except for bailing out the big financial
institutions without have a good handle on that.
After all, AIG is already in the tank for $180 billion.
What's going on is people are slow to realize that it's a new world.
You may have noticed Joe and Pat all flustered about the diving DJIA.
They still don't get it. The "magic money" of Wall Street is the root
of the problem we are in.
Those days are over. Over.
The 401k "losses" aren't real money. It was never real.
"Real" money is cash in hand that can purchase something.
People just don't like to admit they were suckers and bought into
the "wealth without labor" bull****.
Especially the "leaders" who should have seen through it.
But that's part and parcel of my yuppie argument, so I won't bore you
with it.
There are much bigger changes coming to reorganize the economy.
Going to be some tough times.
A bucket of cold water in a lot of faces.
That's how "socialism" hits after living off the labor of others for
so many years. A cold slap in the face.
Wall Street will play a much smaller role.
But they don't get it.
I suppose horseshoers had the same problem when the tin Lizzy came on
the scene.
That's what a lot of old "establishment" guys are going through.
Joe is acting really funny. I think he's a smart guy, but he's got
the horse-and-buggy disease.
He's probably too young to remember when things were different.
Remember the old Nebraska farmer who Johnny Carson asked what
technological advance most impressed him?
Everybody was expecting him to say airplane, or moon mission or
television.
He rocked the audience by answering "Electricity."
Damn, I miss Johnny.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 05:36:20 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


Well, of course. Uncharted territory. Obama is trying lots of different
things and like most of us, hope some of them work properly. We've given
up entirely on Republican drip down.

The shotgun approach can be effective but is incredibly inefficient and
requires little thought.
Just shoot in the direction of anything that moves.

I don't think it's shotgun except for bailing out the big financial
institutions without have a good handle on that.
After all, AIG is already in the tank for $180 billion.
What's going on is people are slow to realize that it's a new world.
You may have noticed Joe and Pat all flustered about the diving DJIA.
They still don't get it. The "magic money" of Wall Street is the root
of the problem we are in.
Those days are over. Over.
The 401k "losses" aren't real money. It was never real.
"Real" money is cash in hand that can purchase something.
People just don't like to admit they were suckers and bought into
the "wealth without labor" bull****.
Especially the "leaders" who should have seen through it.
But that's part and parcel of my yuppie argument, so I won't bore you
with it.
There are much bigger changes coming to reorganize the economy.
Going to be some tough times.
A bucket of cold water in a lot of faces.
That's how "socialism" hits after living off the labor of others for
so many years. A cold slap in the face.
Wall Street will play a much smaller role.
But they don't get it.
I suppose horseshoers had the same problem when the tin Lizzy came on
the scene.
That's what a lot of old "establishment" guys are going through.
Joe is acting really funny. I think he's a smart guy, but he's got
the horse-and-buggy disease.
He's probably too young to remember when things were different.
Remember the old Nebraska farmer who Johnny Carson asked what
technological advance most impressed him?
Everybody was expecting him to say airplane, or moon mission or
television.
He rocked the audience by answering "Electricity."
Damn, I miss Johnny.

--Vic


Carson was without question the very best at what he did. So were his
guests and his orchestra. No one who has followed can fill even one of
his shoes.

It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same conclusions
regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent years especially
the "value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of reality, that it
was speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.

In rebuilding the economy, I'd like to see a lot more emphasis on
insured savings accounts paying good interest rates and home mortgages
and other loans at some multiple of the savings rate that assures
solidity for the institutions making the loans. There is no consumer
need for banks the size of Citibank or Bank of America. Commercial
interests have different needs, of course.

"HK" wrote in message
m...

Vic Smith wrote:

What's going on is people are slow to realize that it's a new world.
You may have noticed Joe and Pat all flustered about the diving DJIA.
They still don't get it. The "magic money" of Wall Street is the root
of the problem we are in.
Those days are over. Over.
The 401k "losses" aren't real money. It was never real.
"Real" money is cash in hand that can purchase something. --Vic



It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same conclusions
regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent years especially the
"value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of reality, that it was
speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.


You guys are leaving out a very important factor called inflation. "Real
money" of 20 or 30 years ago doesn't buy you much today.

Growth is necessary for a healthy economic climate and growth in business
includes market capitalization and an increase in stock value. Companies
don't arbitrarily establish the value of their stock. The market
establishes it and the market is what people are willing to pay for it.

Without growth an economy stagnates.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
m...

Vic Smith wrote:

What's going on is people are slow to realize that it's a new world.
You may have noticed Joe and Pat all flustered about the diving DJIA.
They still don't get it. The "magic money" of Wall Street is the root
of the problem we are in.
Those days are over. Over.
The 401k "losses" aren't real money. It was never real.
"Real" money is cash in hand that can purchase something. --Vic



It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same
conclusions regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent years
especially the "value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of
reality, that it was speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.


You guys are leaving out a very important factor called inflation.
"Real money" of 20 or 30 years ago doesn't buy you much today.

Growth is necessary for a healthy economic climate and growth in
business includes market capitalization and an increase in stock
value. Companies don't arbitrarily establish the value of their
stock. The market establishes it and the market is what people are
willing to pay for it.

Without growth an economy stagnates.

Eisboch


"The market" is a canard built upon a canard.

On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 07:57:55 -0500, HK wrote:



Carson was without question the very best at what he did. So were his
guests and his orchestra. No one who has followed can fill even one of
his shoes.

The odd thing about Carson is I think he was truly an introvert.
Nobody but the Joannes knew him well.

It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same conclusions
regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent years especially
the "value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of reality, that it
was speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.

I never really came to a "conclusion." I always thought it was
bull**** in terms of share price escalation building "value."
Owning shares in solid companies paying dividends better than
contemporary low interest rates was always a solid investment.
But any surety of that was essentially destroyed once Wall Street got
their hands on wage earners 401k money and went to town with it.
Some investors made out because of the natural timing of a Ponzi
scheme, but I'm not one of them.
I avoided it entirely, putting my 401k contributions in money markets.
**** poor return, but I felt it safer.
Did get some profit sharing. As soon as the company shares hit my
account I sold and moved it to the money market.
One short period when my company's P/E was less the 15:1 I made
a few bucks by moving a portion to company stock for a while.
Other than that I've avoided it. Nearly all of my retirement money is
plain old savings. Otherwise known as "biting the bullet" on
spending, or "being a tightass."
You do know that Feds are guaranteeing 401k money markets
to not go negative in retirement accounts?
Don't know how much they've spent on that. The entire 401k system
would have fallen apart if the "safe" investment started losing money.
One of the first things they did last year when the bailouts began.
The 401k system was set up to funnel wages to Wall Street equities.
It ****ed me off a bit to have my funds stuck in money markets paying
a couple points when I could 5 on the open market. But you can't get
it out. Wall Street Communism, simply put.
Still better than taxes though.

In rebuilding the economy, I'd like to see a lot more emphasis on
insured savings accounts paying good interest rates and home mortgages
and other loans at some multiple of the savings rate that assures
solidity for the institutions making the loans. There is no consumer
need for banks the size of Citibank or Bank of America. Commercial
interests have different needs, of course.

The yuppies in charge don't get it, because of their aversion to
protectionism, and low opinion of blue collars, but the only answer is
trade balance, and that means more manufacturing here.
Banking will take care of itself.
Jobs are what's important.
The big adjustment needed is that the "good life" ain't free or
guaranteed.
I've said most of this before, and am boring myself.
And I might be all wrong too.
But hey.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 07:57:55 -0500, HK wrote:


Carson was without question the very best at what he did. So were his
guests and his orchestra. No one who has followed can fill even one of
his shoes.

The odd thing about Carson is I think he was truly an introvert.
Nobody but the Joannes knew him well.



So many JoAnnes, until he married an Alexis!





It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same conclusions
regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent years especially
the "value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of reality, that it
was speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.

I never really came to a "conclusion." I always thought it was
bull**** in terms of share price escalation building "value."
Owning shares in solid companies paying dividends better than
contemporary low interest rates was always a solid investment.
But any surety of that was essentially destroyed once Wall Street got
their hands on wage earners 401k money and went to town with it.
Some investors made out because of the natural timing of a Ponzi
scheme, but I'm not one of them.
I avoided it entirely, putting my 401k contributions in money markets.
**** poor return, but I felt it safer.
Did get some profit sharing. As soon as the company shares hit my
account I sold and moved it to the money market.
One short period when my company's P/E was less the 15:1 I made
a few bucks by moving a portion to company stock for a while.
Other than that I've avoided it. Nearly all of my retirement money is
plain old savings. Otherwise known as "biting the bullet" on
spending, or "being a tightass."
You do know that Feds are guaranteeing 401k money markets
to not go negative in retirement accounts?
Don't know how much they've spent on that. The entire 401k system
would have fallen apart if the "safe" investment started losing money.
One of the first things they did last year when the bailouts began.
The 401k system was set up to funnel wages to Wall Street equities.
It ****ed me off a bit to have my funds stuck in money markets paying
a couple points when I could 5 on the open market. But you can't get
it out. Wall Street Communism, simply put.
Still better than taxes though.

In rebuilding the economy, I'd like to see a lot more emphasis on
insured savings accounts paying good interest rates and home mortgages
and other loans at some multiple of the savings rate that assures
solidity for the institutions making the loans. There is no consumer
need for banks the size of Citibank or Bank of America. Commercial
interests have different needs, of course.

The yuppies in charge don't get it, because of their aversion to
protectionism, and low opinion of blue collars, but the only answer is
trade balance, and that means more manufacturing here.
Banking will take care of itself.
Jobs are what's important.
The big adjustment needed is that the "good life" ain't free or
guaranteed.
I've said most of this before, and am boring myself.
And I might be all wrong too.
But hey.

--Vic


I used to "dabble" a bit on "the market" now and then, and a few times I
really gambled but not with any significant amounts of future retirement
money. I did OK with Microsoft. The last shares I owned were in Garmin,
and that did OK for me, too. For speculative investments, I used to like
raw land that was in the path of development and small commercial
properties that had good tenants and paid regular income, much of which
could then be stashed away.

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:38:33 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"HK" wrote in message
om...

Vic Smith wrote:

What's going on is people are slow to realize that it's a new world.
You may have noticed Joe and Pat all flustered about the diving DJIA.
They still don't get it. The "magic money" of Wall Street is the root
of the problem we are in.
Those days are over. Over.
The 401k "losses" aren't real money. It was never real.
"Real" money is cash in hand that can purchase something. --Vic



It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same conclusions
regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent years especially the
"value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of reality, that it was
speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.


You guys are leaving out a very important factor called inflation. "Real
money" of 20 or 30 years ago doesn't buy you much today.

Healthy money policy has usually kept people with good savings habits
ahead of inflation with simple interest rates.
This whole "everybody gets rich" Wall Street phenomenon is a recent
development.

Growth is necessary for a healthy economic climate and growth in business
includes market capitalization and an increase in stock value. Companies
don't arbitrarily establish the value of their stock. The market
establishes it and the market is what people are willing to pay for it.

No, not "people" in general. The 401k market money is a captive. The
inflation of prices was institutional, and had nothing to do with real
value. It was the Wall Street players who pumped the prices so high.
The balloon has burst.

Without growth an economy stagnates.

I can't remember the name of that Secretary of Agriculture who got
hammered for saying "What's wrong with mediocrity?"
Hruska?
Anyway, I tend to agree with him that mediocrity isn't bad.
A lot of it is your philosophical view, but I've seen plenty of
instances where growth isn't the desirable path.
But growth is always the Chamber of Commerce view, for sure.
Reminds me of when my dad was running an auction hall on U.S.
41 near Ft Meyers, FL.
He's a fisherman like me, but loves money more than me.
We argued about the interstate coming down there.
He thought it would be good for business, and I thought it would
get the population up and mess with my fishing.
I was right.
BTW, he wasn't a good businessman and went out of business!
The clientele that flocked down there not only raised his operating
costs, but didn't much care for auctions either.
Frogwatch might have a few things to say about growth in Florida.

--Vic

--Vic

HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
m...

Vic Smith wrote:

What's going on is people are slow to realize that it's a new world.
You may have noticed Joe and Pat all flustered about the diving DJIA.
They still don't get it. The "magic money" of Wall Street is the root
of the problem we are in.
Those days are over. Over.
The 401k "losses" aren't real money. It was never real.
"Real" money is cash in hand that can purchase something. --Vic



It's interesting to me that you have come to about the same
conclusions regarding the stock market as I have, that in recent
years especially the "value" of stocks was not based upon any sort of
reality, that it was speculation built upon speculation. Book-cookers.


You guys are leaving out a very important factor called inflation.
"Real money" of 20 or 30 years ago doesn't buy you much today.

Growth is necessary for a healthy economic climate and growth in
business includes market capitalization and an increase in stock
value. Companies don't arbitrarily establish the value of their
stock. The market establishes it and the market is what people are
willing to pay for it.

Without growth an economy stagnates.

Eisboch


"The market" is a canard built upon a canard.

Your ignorance of markets in general is stunning. Take a farmers market
for instance. Does the farmer selling his damaged and dirty apples earn
as much as mush as the farmer who is selling undamaged and clean apples?
They are the same type of apples. Should the shoppers in that market be
forced to pay the same amount for the damaged and dirty apples as they
do for the undamaged and clean apples?

Why did you buy your Parker? A boat is just a boat. You should have just
gone to the boat store and put in an order for a "boat." When the next
boat showed up at the boat store it was yours regardless of whether it
was what you really wanted because a boat is a boat.

The market is about freedom and choice.