On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:00:10 -0500, Eisboch wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message
t...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:33 -0500, BAR wrote:


We need a long term solution, something that is going to give everyone
long term confidence that the economy is going to improve. Eliminate
corporate taxes, reduce capital gains taxes and cut personal income
taxes in half but, make sure that everyone who earns income pays
taxes. No individual gets a free ride on taxes. This will get the
economy moving again. The people will have confidence that they will
have more money to spend themselves. Businesses will have more money
to spend on capital equipment and the ability to hire more people.
Investors will be encouraged to move their money into ventures that
may produce greater returns.


Sell that tired Republican BS to someone else. If you haven't noticed,
we have been doing what you suggest for the past 20 years, and look
where it's gotten us.



A growing, expanding and healthy business base and Wall Street swindling
are two different issues. The latter was in some cases initiated by
government intervention and in all cases by the lack of government
oversight of what they initiated.

If we intend to keep capitalism as our economic engine, BAR is
absolutely correct and many honest (meaning non-politically motivated)
economic experts agree. Growing and investing businesses have always
been the catalyst for an expanding economy, employment and consumer
confidence/spending. Throw a wet towel on business in the form of
taxes and the economy slows down. Happens everytime.

Now, if you are suggesting we replace our business based economic engine
with something else, then all bets are off.

I'm suggesting that since Ronald Reagan, Republicans have been running on
"government being the problem". Deregulation and privatization were the
mantras. I'm suggesting recent events have put an end to such
silliness. A literal handful of fat cats have just choked the *world's*
economy, and people are looking to their governments to save it.

Now, I don't know how deep this recession is going to be, but if it is
deep and long, people are going to demand changes. Capitalism is going
to be redefined, and laissez-faire is not going to be part of the
definition.

Capitalism is a healthy and robust adjunct to democracy, but in my world,
business is here to serve people, not the other way around. When greed
runs amuck on Wall Street, and thousands on Main Street are put out of
work, there should be, and, I suspect, there will be changes. Look
closely at the social turmoil during the Great Depression. I would
suggest that as a country, we are not nearly as polite now, as we were
then.

I would also suggest that on this increasingly small planet, this
consumption based economy that has sustained us all these years, is a
dying paradigm, but that's another story. ;-)

thunder wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:00:10 -0500, Eisboch wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message
t...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:33 -0500, BAR wrote:


We need a long term solution, something that is going to give everyone
long term confidence that the economy is going to improve. Eliminate
corporate taxes, reduce capital gains taxes and cut personal income
taxes in half but, make sure that everyone who earns income pays
taxes. No individual gets a free ride on taxes. This will get the
economy moving again. The people will have confidence that they will
have more money to spend themselves. Businesses will have more money
to spend on capital equipment and the ability to hire more people.
Investors will be encouraged to move their money into ventures that
may produce greater returns.

Sell that tired Republican BS to someone else. If you haven't noticed,
we have been doing what you suggest for the past 20 years, and look
where it's gotten us.


A growing, expanding and healthy business base and Wall Street swindling
are two different issues. The latter was in some cases initiated by
government intervention and in all cases by the lack of government
oversight of what they initiated.

If we intend to keep capitalism as our economic engine, BAR is
absolutely correct and many honest (meaning non-politically motivated)
economic experts agree. Growing and investing businesses have always
been the catalyst for an expanding economy, employment and consumer
confidence/spending. Throw a wet towel on business in the form of
taxes and the economy slows down. Happens everytime.

Now, if you are suggesting we replace our business based economic engine
with something else, then all bets are off.

I'm suggesting that since Ronald Reagan, Republicans have been running on
"government being the problem". Deregulation and privatization were the
mantras. I'm suggesting recent events have put an end to such
silliness. A literal handful of fat cats have just choked the *world's*
economy, and people are looking to their governments to save it.

Now, I don't know how deep this recession is going to be, but if it is
deep and long, people are going to demand changes. Capitalism is going
to be redefined, and laissez-faire is not going to be part of the
definition.

Capitalism is a healthy and robust adjunct to democracy, but in my world,
business is here to serve people, not the other way around. When greed
runs amuck on Wall Street, and thousands on Main Street are put out of
work, there should be, and, I suspect, there will be changes. Look
closely at the social turmoil during the Great Depression. I would
suggest that as a country, we are not nearly as polite now, as we were
then.

I would also suggest that on this increasingly small planet, this
consumption based economy that has sustained us all these years, is a
dying paradigm, but that's another story. ;-)

"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a couple
of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't know
what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over the
past century.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:59:12 -0600, thunder wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a couple
of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't know
what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over the
past century.

Perhaps this article in today's Washington Post is a portent of things to
come - the future your discussing.

Read the article. The entire premise is that Obama is going to give money
away - money to pay off mortgages, for example.

http://tinyurl.com/8fb72t
--
* I Have a Degree in Liberal Arts; Do You Want Fries With That? *

John H

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:52:09 -0500, John H wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:59:12 -0600, thunder wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a couple
of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't know
what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over the
past century.

Perhaps this article in today's Washington Post is a portent of things to
come - the future you're discussing.

Read the article. The entire premise is that Obama is going to give money
away - money to pay off mortgages, for example.

http://tinyurl.com/8fb72t

Just had to fix the 'your' above.
--
* I Have a Degree in Liberal Arts; Do You Want Fries With That? *

John H

thunder wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a couple
of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't know
what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over the
past century.

Who has the potential for being the bigger waster of the Earth's resources?

China = 1.3 billion people.
Inia = 1.2 billion people.
USA = 0.3 billion people.

What does the Sierra Club think about the Three Gorges Damn project?
What was the result of their protests against the project in China?

When 500 million Indians and 500 million Chinese are driving around in
their gas burning automobiles what will you do to reduce their carbon
footprint?

BAR wrote:
thunder wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a
couple of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I
don't know what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it
will be considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have
had over the past century.

Who has the potential for being the bigger waster of the Earth's resources?

China = 1.3 billion people.
Inia = 1.2 billion people.
USA = 0.3 billion people.

What does the Sierra Club think about the Three Gorges Damn project?
What was the result of their protests against the project in China?

When 500 million Indians and 500 million Chinese are driving around in
their gas burning automobiles what will you do to reduce their carbon
footprint?






Please, try harder. Damned is what you will be. Dam is a structure built
to control a river.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:31:03 -0500, BAR wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to be
come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a couple
of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't know
what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over the
past century.

Who has the potential for being the bigger waster of the Earth's resources?

China = 1.3 billion people.
Inia = 1.2 billion people.
USA = 0.3 billion people.

What does the Sierra Club think about the Three Gorges Damn project?
What was the result of their protests against the project in China?

When 500 million Indians and 500 million Chinese are driving around in
their gas burning automobiles what will you do to reduce their carbon
footprint?


Friggin' facts again!

You don't expect an answer to that, do you?
--
* I Have a Degree in Liberal Arts; Do You Want Fries With That? *

John H

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:31:03 -0500, BAR wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to
be come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from
you.

No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a
couple of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't
know what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over
the past century.

Who has the potential for being the bigger waster of the Earth's
resources?

China = 1.3 billion people.
Inia = 1.2 billion people.
USA = 0.3 billion people.

What does the Sierra Club think about the Three Gorges Damn project?
What was the result of their protests against the project in China?

When 500 million Indians and 500 million Chinese are driving around in
their gas burning automobiles what will you do to reduce their carbon
footprint?

Glad to see you agree with me.

thunder wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:31:03 -0500, BAR wrote:

thunder wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:10:08 -0500, BAR wrote:


"consumption based economy?" Please tell me you do not want us all to
be come subsistence farmers? If you do I want to live up stream from
you.
No, I mean we have become an incredibly wasteful, resource intensive,
society. In the long run, it is unsustainable, especially with a
couple of billion Indians, and Chinese, wanting to be like us. I don't
know what the future of capitalism will be, but I'll wager it will be
considerably different than the laissez-faire system we have had over
the past century.
Who has the potential for being the bigger waster of the Earth's
resources?

China = 1.3 billion people.
Inia = 1.2 billion people.
USA = 0.3 billion people.

What does the Sierra Club think about the Three Gorges Damn project?
What was the result of their protests against the project in China?

When 500 million Indians and 500 million Chinese are driving around in
their gas burning automobiles what will you do to reduce their carbon
footprint?

Glad to see you agree with me.

I don't agree with you.

If you are a true believer then you will get on a plane, wait a minute,
a sailboat, and go to China or India and protest their use of the Earths
resources. But, your true motives are easy to see. You only want to see
the western world destroyed.