On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:18:23 -0400, "Don White"
wrote:


"DK" wrote in message
m...
Don White wrote:
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:49:33 -0500, JohnH wrote:

Harry, we're talking about ways to do in the pirates here
I think the answer as air power. Don't the Saudis have a few AWACs
planes. Loiter over the water off Somalia and profile any small boats
shadowing their ships. Call in some "air" with 500 lb IR guided bombs
to blow them out of the water from altitude. If these pirates discover
their boats are simply disappearing without a trace they might stop
going out.
For that matter the US could do that but we should do it covertly.
Officially we don't know why pirate boats are suddenly blowing up at
sea. Must be some kind of accident handling munitions or something.
Maybe they just have a batch of defective bilge blowers.

I am still not sure how these guys are sneaking up on a tanker. Don't
they have RADAR?
They do understand extreme violence. Air power is the answer. Find out
what village or town the pirates are from. Then just tell the pirates
that the village / town is going to be removed from the desert sands via
big bomb method. Then do it.

I say the world navies should declare a 'no go' zone to use as a shipping
channel. Any unauthorized boats step over the line...kaboom.
They'll get the message.

Click on this, dumbass, and tell me how that will work...

http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml


I believe we're just talking about one particular area numbnuts.
Quit OD'n on those 'stupid pills'.


That one particular little area, according to NBC news, is over two million
square miles. Here's a map for you. Check out the 'one particular area'
numbnuts. Quit OD'n on your 'stupid pills'.

http://tinyurl.com/5t74hd
--
John H.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:07:39 -0500, DK wrote:

Don White wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:03:41 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

"Boater" wrote in message
...

Johnson was gone by January 1969. Nixon expanded the war and also bombed
the crap out of Cambodia and Laos. Then, with peace in sight, Nixon
intiated operation linebacker 2, a bombing campaign against north
vietnam,
the biggest bombing campaign engaged in by the US since world war ii.

We got our ass kicked in vietnam. Your delusions about the war won't
change that.



Holy Crap Harry!

I normally give you credit for some intelligence, but this one really
makes
me wonder if Alzheimer's is setting in.

I won't even bother giving you details of the correct historical account.
You can research them for yourself if you want to, which I doubt.

But, here's the highlights:

Kennedy and especially LBJ micro managed a "limited" war. In spite of
this,
the military held it's own, even though not designed, equipped or trained
for this type of warfare.

Nixon came to office vowing to end the war. Fruitless attempts to
negotiate
were just that .... fruitless.
Call in the big guns and the big airplanes..... and start bombing the crap
out of 'em.

Next thing you know, we are at the table, seriously negotiating. Bombings
stop.

The North pulls an about face and a fast one .... Bombings start again.

Mad rush back to the table, and a cease fire is negotiated.

There's a book, written by someone who was "there" (and on the North's
side)
who gives a very interesting and detailed account of what was happening at
this critical point. Damned if I can remember the name of it, but when it
comes to me, I'll forward it. Bottom line was that unknown to us, the
North
was virtually on the brink of collapse when the bombings were restarted.
They were just about ready to surrender. We blew it at the negotiating
table, not recognizing this because the focus was on a cease fire due to
all
the political pressure back in the States to end the war.

It was a war poorly managed politically. It was a war that the military
did, as usual, what they were asked to do, despite the constraints and
handicaps imposed by the politicians.

I wish you had more experience with the military and it's capabilities.
It's an amazing organization that can take people from all walks of life,
smart and not so smart, black, white, rich, poor and somehow convert
myriad
backgrounds into a cohesive, organized and motivated organization. It's
not perfect by any means, but the concept of being a equal member of a
team,
rather than a standout produces an amazingly competent and efficient (for
it's size) organization. And the new, "volunteer" military is 10 times
better than the old one I am familiar with.

Eisboch


Ten times better, my ass.

Maybe eight and a half. No more.
--
John H.

He was referring to the officer ranks.



You really should learn when to refrain from posting. That made you
look dumber than usual.

Impossible.
--
John H.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:29:17 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:01:42 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:13:30 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:57:56 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:53 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Call in some "air" with 500 lb IR guided bombs
to blow them out of the water from altitude. If these pirates discover
their boats are simply disappearing without a trace they might stop
going out.

Use 250 lb bombs, they will vaporize a small boat just as thoroughly,
and you can carry more of them. You can get six to a pylon, two triple
ejector racks one behind the other. With an A-10 that's sixty of them.
them. Tons lighter. More fuel. Your bomb load and milage may vary.

Ed Zeiben. That reminds me of Ed Zeiben. Worked with him at IH in
1968. We were heat treaters. Big, wiry guy. WWII vet.
The yippies and other trash were rioting in Grant Park, a few miles
away from IH Tractor Works.
He had the answer to the riots.
"One 500-pounder. That'll take care of 'em."
But he was an optimistic kinda guy.

You worked at IH in the sixties? Kewl. That would have been during
the era of the number series tractors - 544, 656, 756, 856 and 1256
models if I'm not mistaken.

That was Farmall. Canton, IL I think. I worked making dozers, so the
models were T-15,20, etc. Old McCormack works on the south side of
Chicago, later Melrose Park, IL when they shut down Tractor Works.

My good friend Harold Foskett has a T-15 and a T-20 dozer.

Fully restored.

McCormick is now owned by a Italian holding company - ARGO who also
make Landini orchard tractors.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:49:30 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:


My good friend Harold Foskett has a T-15 and a T-20 dozer.

Fully restored.

Good to know. I googled them out of curiosity a while back and saw
some for sale. I was there almost nine years and had my hand in
making a lot of parts, from track chain bushings and links to track
shoes to bucket arms and a lot in-beween.
Good possibility some of that is still doing work.
I value the work I did there.

--Vic

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message news
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:29:17 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:01:42 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:13:30 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:57:56 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:53 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Call in some "air" with 500 lb IR guided bombs
to blow them out of the water from altitude. If these pirates
discover
their boats are simply disappearing without a trace they might
stop
going out.

Use 250 lb bombs, they will vaporize a small boat just as thoroughly,
and you can carry more of them. You can get six to a pylon, two triple
ejector racks one behind the other. With an A-10 that's sixty of them.
them. Tons lighter. More fuel. Your bomb load and milage may vary.

Ed Zeiben. That reminds me of Ed Zeiben. Worked with him at IH in
1968. We were heat treaters. Big, wiry guy. WWII vet.
The yippies and other trash were rioting in Grant Park, a few miles
away from IH Tractor Works.
He had the answer to the riots.
"One 500-pounder. That'll take care of 'em."
But he was an optimistic kinda guy.

You worked at IH in the sixties? Kewl. That would have been during
the era of the number series tractors - 544, 656, 756, 856 and 1256
models if I'm not mistaken.

That was Farmall. Canton, IL I think. I worked making dozers, so the
models were T-15,20, etc. Old McCormack works on the south side of
Chicago, later Melrose Park, IL when they shut down Tractor Works.

My good friend Harold Foskett has a T-15 and a T-20 dozer.

Fully restored.

McCormick is now owned by a Italian holding company - ARGO who also
make Landini orchard tractors.

Weren't those TD- numbers. I drove a TD-15 while in high school for a
friends top soil company.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:37:14 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message news
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:29:17 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:01:42 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:13:30 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:57:56 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:53 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Call in some "air" with 500 lb IR guided bombs
to blow them out of the water from altitude. If these pirates
discover
their boats are simply disappearing without a trace they might
stop
going out.

Use 250 lb bombs, they will vaporize a small boat just as thoroughly,
and you can carry more of them. You can get six to a pylon, two triple
ejector racks one behind the other. With an A-10 that's sixty of them.
them. Tons lighter. More fuel. Your bomb load and milage may vary.

Ed Zeiben. That reminds me of Ed Zeiben. Worked with him at IH in
1968. We were heat treaters. Big, wiry guy. WWII vet.
The yippies and other trash were rioting in Grant Park, a few miles
away from IH Tractor Works.
He had the answer to the riots.
"One 500-pounder. That'll take care of 'em."
But he was an optimistic kinda guy.

You worked at IH in the sixties? Kewl. That would have been during
the era of the number series tractors - 544, 656, 756, 856 and 1256
models if I'm not mistaken.

That was Farmall. Canton, IL I think. I worked making dozers, so the
models were T-15,20, etc. Old McCormack works on the south side of
Chicago, later Melrose Park, IL when they shut down Tractor Works.

My good friend Harold Foskett has a T-15 and a T-20 dozer.

Fully restored.

McCormick is now owned by a Italian holding company - ARGO who also
make Landini orchard tractors.

Weren't those TD- numbers. I drove a TD-15 while in high school for a
friends top soil company.

Think you're right. Rings a bell.
What I remember is the T(D)-25 single-cleat shoes weighed about 80
pounds. Pulled about 18 tons a shift of them yellow-hot out of a
furnace at the end of tongs, spinning around to ram them through the
press, which punched the bolt holes and extruded for the link slots.
That's 450 shoes, which I liked. You could only pull a few dozen
before you had to let the furnace catch up, so you got to relax a bit.
The furnace could keep up better with the lighter shoes of 50-40-30
pounds, and the constant motion all night was more tedious.
My guys wanted max piecework, and I always kept them happy.
Four man crew. Pressman/diesetter, a loader. quencher and a
grinder/unloader. Plus I usually had an audience of guys on break.
That crew was later automated to one guy, with no heavy lifting.

--Vic

On Nov 19, 7:05*pm, DK wrote:
Boater wrote:
JohnH wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:21:07 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Whatever the solution is, it should not involved killing uninvolved
civilians. We've done enough of that in Iraq and Afghanistan. What
gives us the right to kill innocent civilians? Cheney-ism?
I agree. *We should never intentionally plan to kill uninvolved,
innocent civilians, and I don't believe for a minute that any
administration has since Truman authorized the atomic bomb drops.

But warfare is not perfect. *To do nothing only empowers the enemy..
Sometimes the risk of collateral damage has to be taken.

Eisboch

Whether it plans to kill them or not, I think the Bush Administration
doesn't give a damn about uninvolved, innocent civilians. Besides,
we're not at the point of bombing Somali villages yet and we
apparently don't have the assets to interdict *Somali pirate ships.

Hey, DS, what's Obama goin' to do?

Round up all the right-wing useless old farts like you and send them
into battle. National defense and public service, rolled up into one.

Typical stupid response from a...writer!

Not typically a mere writer, but a union agitator as well.

On Nov 19, 9:37*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews7g9i49ds8bjfvqi61mq77ec651ufeclc9@4ax .com...



On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:29:17 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:01:42 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:13:30 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:57:56 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:53 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Call in some "air" with 500 lb IR guided bombs
to blow them out of the water from altitude. If these pirates
discover
their boats are simply disappearing without a trace they might
stop
going out.

Use 250 lb bombs, they will vaporize a small boat just as thoroughly,
and you can carry more of them. You can get six to a pylon, two triple
ejector racks one behind the other. With an A-10 that's sixty of them.
them. Tons lighter. More fuel. Your bomb load and milage may vary.

Ed Zeiben. *That reminds me of Ed Zeiben. *Worked with him at IH in
1968. *We were heat treaters. *Big, wiry guy. *WWII vet.
The yippies and other trash were rioting in Grant Park, a few miles
away from IH Tractor Works.
He had the answer to the riots.
"One 500-pounder. *That'll take care of 'em."
But he was an optimistic kinda guy.

You worked at IH in the sixties? *Kewl. *That would have been during
the era of the number series tractors - 544, 656, 756, 856 and 1256
models if I'm not mistaken.

That was Farmall. *Canton, IL I think. *I worked making dozers, so the
models were T-15,20, etc. *Old McCormack works on the south side of
Chicago, later Melrose Park, IL when they shut down Tractor Works.

My good friend Harold Foskett has a T-15 and a T-20 dozer.

Fully restored.

McCormick is now owned by a Italian holding company - ARGO who also
make Landini orchard tractors.

Weren't those TD- numbers. *I drove a TD-15 while in high school for a
friends top soil company.

Yes. The T stood for tractor, and the D was for diesel. However in
the farm machinery like you had a different set. And example would be
an M, MD, MDTA.

M (Standard tractor) MD (M Diesel) MTA (M torque amplified) MDTA (M
diesel, torque amplified) etc.

wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 9:37 pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews7g9i49ds8bjfvqi61mq77ec651ufeclc9@4ax .com...



On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:29:17 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:01:42 GMT, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:13:30 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:57:56 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:53 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Call in some "air" with 500 lb IR guided bombs
to blow them out of the water from altitude. If these pirates
discover
their boats are simply disappearing without a trace they might
stop
going out.

Use 250 lb bombs, they will vaporize a small boat just as thoroughly,
and you can carry more of them. You can get six to a pylon, two
triple
ejector racks one behind the other. With an A-10 that's sixty of
them.
them. Tons lighter. More fuel. Your bomb load and milage may vary.

Ed Zeiben. That reminds me of Ed Zeiben. Worked with him at IH in
1968. We were heat treaters. Big, wiry guy. WWII vet.
The yippies and other trash were rioting in Grant Park, a few miles
away from IH Tractor Works.
He had the answer to the riots.
"One 500-pounder. That'll take care of 'em."
But he was an optimistic kinda guy.

You worked at IH in the sixties? Kewl. That would have been during
the era of the number series tractors - 544, 656, 756, 856 and 1256
models if I'm not mistaken.

That was Farmall. Canton, IL I think. I worked making dozers, so the
models were T-15,20, etc. Old McCormack works on the south side of
Chicago, later Melrose Park, IL when they shut down Tractor Works.

My good friend Harold Foskett has a T-15 and a T-20 dozer.

Fully restored.

McCormick is now owned by a Italian holding company - ARGO who also
make Landini orchard tractors.

Weren't those TD- numbers. I drove a TD-15 while in high school for a
friends top soil company.

Yes. The T stood for tractor, and the D was for diesel. However in
the farm machinery like you had a different set. And example would be
an M, MD, MDTA.

M (Standard tractor) MD (M Diesel) MTA (M torque amplified) MDTA (M
diesel, torque amplified) etc.

Was a diesel and was a T. Was a skip loader basically for loading dirt in
the and moving dirt piles in the storage yard. Droitt 5 (4) in 1 bucket.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:12:36 -0500, Eisboch wrote:

Good in theory, but just not realistically enforceable in a dependable
way. The area would still be immense and very difficult to monitor, even
with aircraft.
These clowns are using very small boats in a very large ocean.

The problem isn't really military capabilities. The problem is the
navies are hamstrung by international law.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7735144.stm