Solution for GM
 

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers, for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead of
the curve.

Eisboch

Solution for GM
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.



BTW .... I don't take any credit for this plan. I heard it expressed by a
guest on Morning Joe.

Eisboch

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers, for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead of
the curve.

Just saw that on CNBC.

I'm skeptical - which is my default position, but some of it makes
sense.

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin


That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.

Eisboch

Solution for GM
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin


That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.

Eisboch




Obviously, the answer for America is to turn all workers into chattel.

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers, for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead of
the curve.

Eisboch


Bottom line...will the plan buy more votes than giving GM a few billion
every week to pay the union members?
--
A Harry Krause truism:

"It's not a *baby* kicking, beautiful bride, it's just a fetus!"

Solution for GM
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers,
for unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured
in a bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to
these contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions
contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean
and mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit
can be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking
down the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become
bloated and inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and
stay ahead of the curve.

Eisboch

Makes sense to me. But I would say best to wait until in chapter 11 before
giving them money. Any agreements or caveats with money at this point at no
longer valid in chapter 11.

Chapter 11 must come first as once in chapter 11 they are talking their
first real step in fixing the real problems. More good cash after bad, not
a good idea. They must do chapter 11 first.

Solution for GM
 

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options
for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin



That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet.
The bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the
hands of existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of
the bankrupcy court.

Eisboch



Obviously, the answer for America is to turn all workers into chattel.

Chattel of King Obama? What do you stand to gain? A job as Court Jester.

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers,
for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to
these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean
and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking
down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated
and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead
of
the curve.

Just saw that on CNBC.

I'm skeptical - which is my default position, but some of it makes
sense.

You scepticism is well founded. What is to stop GM from doing with the new
money:

Bail out management with fat packages and paid up pension transfers then do
chapter 11 before the judge can stop such activities? Then just as broke as
before?

Just to get the hooks deeper into taxpayers that are not even in the auto
industry?

Union rats are not the only rats in a scurry. Management and the board rats
are too.

Solution for GM
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers,
for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to
these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean
and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking
down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated
and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead
of
the curve.

Eisboch


Bottom line...will the plan buy more votes than giving GM a few billion
every week to pay the union members?

I think there is more to it. Beyond bailing out UAW/CAW unions, who was the
billionaire who bought a bunch to control the board some 2-3 year ago? Then
lets examine how many shares of GM each senator and congress person owns.

This is a pork barrel bailout with lipstick on it.

Let Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Chrysler pick up the slack. This industry
is not a one horse show. Pretty good chance if a new car buyer goes to the
market they will not even use GM anyways.

Solution for GM
 

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for
GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin


That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands
of existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the
bankrupcy court.

Eisboch



Obviously, the answer for America is to turn all workers into chattel.

Chattel of King Obama? What do you stand to gain? A job as Court Jester.

Unfortunately Boater is part of the problem in America these days.
Government makes a problem, then people vote for more government as they
have neither the self worth or self esteem to get off their asses and work.
Many hide behind Obama, others the UAW. It all amounts to the same thing.

Kennedy: What can you do for your country?
Obama: What can government do for you?

The later is a socialist statement if I ever heard it. Canadians know this
line well. In 5 years you will have a national sales tax, costs on
gasoline, alcohol, tobacco, luxury items like boats, government fees, income
taxes, property taxes, hidden taxes are all going to skyrocket to better
than 50% of your income. Even your internet and cell phones will double in
cost.

Think I am bluffing? Look north to Canada. Has already happened. And if
you think a monolithic health care service provided by the government is any
great shakes, my just found out she has a cist and hast to wait 6 months to
get it out.

Socialism is a disease.

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for
GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin


That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.

Eisboch


Obviously, the answer for America is to turn all workers into chattel.

While the 'elite' live like kings. Here comes that good ole' feudal
system.

Solution for GM
 

On Nov 17, 6:59*am, "Eisboch" wrote:
Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)

Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers, for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, *in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". * GM will still be obligated to these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. *The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. * I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated and
inefficient. * We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead of
the curve.

Eisboch

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

Solution for GM
 

wrote in message
...

On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

-----------------------------

"silver-spooner"? LOL. That's a new one.

You sound a bit more frustrated today than usual. Cut back on your
overtime? Union dues go up? Or did your shop steward inform you that your
latest grievance was denied?

Eisboch

Solution for GM
 

On Nov 17, 11:10*am, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

-----------------------------

"silver-spooner"? * LOL. * That's a new one.

You sound a bit more frustrated today than usual. *Cut back on your
overtime? *Union dues go up? *Or did your shop steward inform you that your
latest grievance was denied?

Eisboch

The company just got the union to up the manhours worked to two, for a
days pay...

Rowdy Mouse Racing, Don't need no stinkin' union...

Solution for GM
 

Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

-----------------------------

"silver-spooner"? LOL. That's a new one.

You sound a bit more frustrated today than usual. Cut back on your
overtime? Union dues go up? Or did your shop steward inform you that your
latest grievance was denied?

Eisboch


Now you're getting into the swing of things. ;-)

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:54:09 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin

That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.

Here's a couple of things I can't get my admittedly slow and aging
brain to accept.

1 - What the auto makers are asking for is more than their current net
worth. The current market cap as of 11 AM today for General Motors is
about $1.9 billion, Ford about 4.3 billion, Chrysler is less than $2
billion - being privately held, it's difficult to tell. For a lousy
$7 billion the government could simply BUY the entire U.S. auto
“industry”.

2 - The companies, as they stand now, can't pay their creditors - what
makes anybody think they will repay the US taxpayer? As of 11 AM today
Ford has $160 billion in debt (with negative book value equity) and
GM has about $60 billion in debt (with a negative book value equity
of$56 billion). How is $50 billion more from the taxpayer going to
help?

Now - tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me why the taxpayer should dump
what could reach 120 Billion into two companies that have, combined, a
negative net worth of 220 Billion dollars.

Come on - tell me - I'm waiting to hear. Harry? Anybody?

I didn't think so.

Solution for GM
 

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:54:09 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for
GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin

That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.

Here's a couple of things I can't get my admittedly slow and aging
brain to accept.

1 - What the auto makers are asking for is more than their current net
worth. The current market cap as of 11 AM today for General Motors is
about $1.9 billion, Ford about 4.3 billion, Chrysler is less than $2
billion - being privately held, it's difficult to tell. For a lousy
$7 billion the government could simply BUY the entire U.S. auto
"industry".

2 - The companies, as they stand now, can't pay their creditors - what
makes anybody think they will repay the US taxpayer? As of 11 AM today
Ford has $160 billion in debt (with negative book value equity) and
GM has about $60 billion in debt (with a negative book value equity
of$56 billion). How is $50 billion more from the taxpayer going to
help?

Now - tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me why the taxpayer should dump
what could reach 120 Billion into two companies that have, combined, a
negative net worth of 220 Billion dollars.

Come on - tell me - I'm waiting to hear. Harry? Anybody?

I didn't think so.


It will work. New Math at work makes it work. Work for you? :)

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Nov 17, 11:10 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

-----------------------------

"silver-spooner"? LOL. That's a new one.

You sound a bit more frustrated today than usual. Cut back on your
overtime? Union dues go up? Or did your shop steward inform you that
your
latest grievance was denied?

Eisboch

The company just got the union to up the manhours worked to two, for a
days pay...

Rowdy Mouse Racing, Don't need no stinkin' union...


Or brains, apparently. So...how much have you saved for that kid's
college?

Funny thing about that. If the parents spent all their money on BMW's and
vacations and have no real assets, the FAFSA application and program will
allow them huge amounts of financial aid. But if the parents were middle
class and saved for the kid's education, then little aid is available. If
there are savings put aside in hte kid's name, then 1/3 of that will go each
year to the education costs. I paid for my kid's education and saved 50% on
the younger ones university education as she earned a 1/2 ride scholarship
for grades. Private University, so still cost a little more per month than
the older one sho went to a Calif. public University. If Justwait's kid has
decent grades, and he has no money, the kid still gets to go to college.

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:54:09 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for
GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin
That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.
Here's a couple of things I can't get my admittedly slow and aging
brain to accept.

1 - What the auto makers are asking for is more than their current net
worth. The current market cap as of 11 AM today for General Motors is
about $1.9 billion, Ford about 4.3 billion, Chrysler is less than $2
billion - being privately held, it's difficult to tell. For a lousy
$7 billion the government could simply BUY the entire U.S. auto
"industry".

2 - The companies, as they stand now, can't pay their creditors - what
makes anybody think they will repay the US taxpayer? As of 11 AM today
Ford has $160 billion in debt (with negative book value equity) and
GM has about $60 billion in debt (with a negative book value equity
of$56 billion). How is $50 billion more from the taxpayer going to
help?

Now - tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me why the taxpayer should dump
what could reach 120 Billion into two companies that have, combined, a
negative net worth of 220 Billion dollars.

Come on - tell me - I'm waiting to hear. Harry? Anybody?

I didn't think so.



Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course
the almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare
bankruptcy anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

Besides, we are blowing $10-$12 billion a month on a masturbatory
fantasy in Iraq, and we'll get nothing for it, ever.

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:45:15 -0500, Boater wrote:

wrote:
On Nov 17, 11:10 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

-----------------------------

"silver-spooner"? LOL. That's a new one.

You sound a bit more frustrated today than usual. Cut back on your
overtime? Union dues go up? Or did your shop steward inform you that your
latest grievance was denied?

Eisboch

The company just got the union to up the manhours worked to two, for a
days pay...

Rowdy Mouse Racing, Don't need no stinkin' union...


Or brains, apparently. So...how much have you saved for that kid's college?

The kid has shown the initiative and discipline to get herself a nice, big
scholarship.

She's even shown some courage, which is something you know nothing of.

*Krausii Liesallthetime Marylandus* -- you gotta love it!
--
A Harry Krause truism:

"It's not a *baby* kicking, beautiful bride, it's just a fetus!"

Solution for GM
 

JohnH wrote:


The kid has shown the initiative and discipline to get herself a nice, big
scholarship.

She's even shown some courage, which is something you know nothing of.



Because she rides a motorcycle? That earns a scholarship and
demonstrates courage?

Besides, what the hell do you know about scholarship? You weren't smart
enough to get a IIA deferment.

Daddy better save up some buckaroos for college. There are no guarantees.

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...


Daddy better save up some buckaroos for college. There are no guarantees.

There are according to big "O".

Eisboch

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:06:27 -0500, Boater wrote:

JohnH wrote:


The kid has shown the initiative and discipline to get herself a nice, big
scholarship.

She's even shown some courage, which is something you know nothing of.



Because she rides a motorcycle? That earns a scholarship and
demonstrates courage?

Besides, what the hell do you know about scholarship? You weren't smart
enough to get a IIA deferment.

Daddy better save up some buckaroos for college. There are no guarantees.

Think about it....how *did* I get a bachelors, a masters, and most of
another masters....drafted....and retired. My daddy saved up nothing for
college.
--
A Harry Krause truism:

"It's not a *baby* kicking, beautiful bride, it's just a fetus!"

Solution for GM
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Daddy better save up some buckaroos for college. There are no guarantees.

There are according to big "O".

Eisboch


WHO YOU GOING TO BELIEVE THE BIG H OR THE BIG O? SOME CHOICE HUH?

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:55:48 -0500, Boater
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:54:09 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:59:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for
GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)


Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
On the other hand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin
That's an option and it does away with unions for the most part.

I'd like to see the American auto industry survive, even if it still
includes union contracts and workers.
But, the whole structure including products, management and union
relationships/contracts needs to be rewritten, using a blank sheet. The
bailout plus Chapter 11 concept takes those decisions out of the hands of
existing management and BOD's and puts them in the hands of the bankrupcy
court.
Here's a couple of things I can't get my admittedly slow and aging
brain to accept.

1 - What the auto makers are asking for is more than their current net
worth. The current market cap as of 11 AM today for General Motors is
about $1.9 billion, Ford about 4.3 billion, Chrysler is less than $2
billion - being privately held, it's difficult to tell. For a lousy
$7 billion the government could simply BUY the entire U.S. auto
"industry".

2 - The companies, as they stand now, can't pay their creditors - what
makes anybody think they will repay the US taxpayer? As of 11 AM today
Ford has $160 billion in debt (with negative book value equity) and
GM has about $60 billion in debt (with a negative book value equity
of$56 billion). How is $50 billion more from the taxpayer going to
help?

Now - tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me why the taxpayer should dump
what could reach 120 Billion into two companies that have, combined, a
negative net worth of 220 Billion dollars.

Come on - tell me - I'm waiting to hear. Harry? Anybody?

I didn't think so.

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course
the almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

Well, for one thing, there wouldn't be a three million job loss -
probably less than half that. Bankruptcy under Chapter 11 is a
reorganization procedure - which means they keep operating while
restructuring and reorganizing.

Secondly, as the NYT pointed out in a very well written article, there
is no reason to believe that Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Volkswagen, yada,
yada, yada wouldn't pick up the slack and actually ADD jobs to the
industry.

Third, how is GM going under going to destroy a manufacturing base
that is already mostly overseas anyway. There aren't any heavy
industrial companies still in business in the US - or at least none
that have any sort of world wide presence. GM's success in the
Eurozone is mostly because they build in Europe and not in the US.

Fourth, restructuring GM would, and this is a fact, make them a
leaner, meaner and much more responsive to market conditions than the
bloated corporate machine they are now.

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare
bankruptcy anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

No - that's true, but it would be an incredibly rich target for any
number of other businesses to pick up and run with. The opportunities
would be tremendous for other companies to pick up.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

Bull****. What I'm against is bloated manufacturing, cars that won't
sell even in good times. I know you've never been in a down cycle
before because of your skill set and Union contacts, but I have - two
of them. And it hurt everytime I had to let people go, but that's
life. There aren't any quarentees - never have been, never will be.

That kind of thinking is what got us into this mess.

Solution for GM
 

On Nov 17, 6:37*pm, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

I know you've never been in a down cycle
before because of your skill set and Union contacts, but I have - two
of them. *And it hurt every time I had to let people go, but that's
life. *There aren't any guarantees - never have been, never will be.

And THAT is why I am gainfully and self employed.

Solution for GM
 

Boater wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 17, 11:10 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.

-----------------------------

"silver-spooner"? LOL. That's a new one.

You sound a bit more frustrated today than usual. Cut back on your
overtime? Union dues go up? Or did your shop steward inform you
that your
latest grievance was denied?

Eisboch

The company just got the union to up the manhours worked to two, for a
days pay...

Rowdy Mouse Racing, Don't need no stinkin' union...


Or brains, apparently. So...how much have you saved for that kid's college?

$30K each in about 4 years. Any more questions asshole?

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

2 - The companies, as they stand now, can't pay their creditors - what
makes anybody think they will repay the US taxpayer? As of 11 AM today
Ford has $160 billion in debt (with negative book value equity) and
GM has about $60 billion in debt (with a negative book value equity
of$56 billion). How is $50 billion more from the taxpayer going to
help?

Inciteful.

They will be back for more, and more, and more, and more... until forced to
change.

Seen this happen in Canada. Once on the dole, no motivation exists to fix
it.

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course the
almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down will
actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare bankruptcy
anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick up
the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about families
and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to bail
everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone out.
People learn when they eat the heat.

Besides, we are blowing $10-$12 billion a month on a masturbatory fantasy
in Iraq, and we'll get nothing for it, ever.

And think, that isn't enough to make the Big 3 profitable.

This problem of blood sucking main street taxes via the government bailouts
is far bigger screw up.

In fact, it is governments very actions making it worse!!! Add 15% to the
national debt in 15 days for banks...that is 15% more in taxes needed at 0%
interest rate. More taxes, less capital in circulation. Less circulation
means less jobs which means even less spending. This is a death spiral!!

In the G20 summit the socialists will down play their number one
recommendation. Quit government bailouts, cease out of control spending,
and lower taxes so the middle class can pay their bills!!!

What a novel concept in a day where credit bounces because of repayment
fears. Did a Liberal wake up and smell the coffee?

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

Bull****. What I'm against is bloated manufacturing, cars that won't
sell even in good times. I know you've never been in a down cycle
before because of your skill set and Union contacts, but I have - two
of them. And it hurt everytime I had to let people go, but that's
life. There aren't any quarentees - never have been, never will be.

That kind of thinking is what got us into this mess.

Insightful. I remember when GM screwed up their financials in 2005 and
reading about management didn't even know how bad it was bleeding. 2005 was
a good year.

Solution for GM
 

wrote in message
...
On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)

Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers,
for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean
and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated
and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead of
the curve.

Eisboch

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.
--------
I think $756 million to be correct. This does not include all incentives
given. Spread over 30 million people or so. Would be like 7.56 billion to
the US.

They are really coming back for more and didn't keep their promises the
first time(s).

Once they are in your pocket, it is almost impossible to get them out.

It is why I want GM into chapter 11, where they can be forced to change or
die. Will in time cost me less in taxes. That is money I can spend on one
that survives and makes something I want.

Solution for GM
 

Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course the
almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down will
actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare bankruptcy
anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick up
the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about families
and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to bail
everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone out.
People learn when they eat the heat.


Fortunately, you aren't in charge of anything and never will be.

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

Solution for GM
 

JohnH wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:06:27 -0500, Boater wrote:

JohnH wrote:

The kid has shown the initiative and discipline to get herself a nice, big
scholarship.

She's even shown some courage, which is something you know nothing of.


Because she rides a motorcycle? That earns a scholarship and
demonstrates courage?

Besides, what the hell do you know about scholarship? You weren't smart
enough to get a IIA deferment.

Daddy better save up some buckaroos for college. There are no guarantees.

Think about it....how *did* I get a bachelors, a masters, and most of
another masters....drafted....and retired. My daddy saved up nothing for
college.

Are you sure you weren't one of those guys who found himself in front of
a judge looking at 6 months in jail or two years in the Army? :)

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course
the almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down
will actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare
bankruptcy anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick
up the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to
bail everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone
out. People learn when they eat the heat.


Fortunately, you aren't in charge of anything and never will be.

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

I wish your country would. We are told our best & brightest (including
doctors) head south for lower taxes & higher salaries.
The govt' then adjusts the tax brackets to the advantage of those making
over $80K to appease them.

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course
the almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down
will actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare
bankruptcy anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick
up the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to
bail everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone
out. People learn when they eat the heat.


Fortunately, you aren't in charge of anything and never will be.

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

Don't worry, raise US taxes all you want. Just let me know so I can short a
few choice stocks. Good capitalists don't let emotion and rhetoric rule.
They get right past that at your expense not theirs.

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:06:27 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Besides, what the hell do you know about scholarship? You weren't smart
enough to get a IIA deferment.

I was, had two academic (Holy Cross/Fordham) and two athletic (Boston
College/Wake Forest) full boat scholarships available to me and I
didn't take them.

Now, make something out of that.

Moron.

Solution for GM
 

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

You're way off base as usual regarding the tax rate issue, but you're right
on target regarding corporate renumeration. Something has to be done with
these corporations running around and renumbering everything. Renumbering
this, renumbering that, it's got to stop, I tell you. Perhaps if
corporations would recruit talented executives and remunerate them
appropriately, all this rampant renumeration would come to an end.

Moron.