Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

2 - The companies, as they stand now, can't pay their creditors - what
makes anybody think they will repay the US taxpayer? As of 11 AM today
Ford has $160 billion in debt (with negative book value equity) and
GM has about $60 billion in debt (with a negative book value equity
of$56 billion). How is $50 billion more from the taxpayer going to
help?

Inciteful.

They will be back for more, and more, and more, and more... until forced to
change.

Seen this happen in Canada. Once on the dole, no motivation exists to fix
it.

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course the
almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down will
actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare bankruptcy
anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick up
the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about families
and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to bail
everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone out.
People learn when they eat the heat.

Besides, we are blowing $10-$12 billion a month on a masturbatory fantasy
in Iraq, and we'll get nothing for it, ever.

And think, that isn't enough to make the Big 3 profitable.

This problem of blood sucking main street taxes via the government bailouts
is far bigger screw up.

In fact, it is governments very actions making it worse!!! Add 15% to the
national debt in 15 days for banks...that is 15% more in taxes needed at 0%
interest rate. More taxes, less capital in circulation. Less circulation
means less jobs which means even less spending. This is a death spiral!!

In the G20 summit the socialists will down play their number one
recommendation. Quit government bailouts, cease out of control spending,
and lower taxes so the middle class can pay their bills!!!

What a novel concept in a day where credit bounces because of repayment
fears. Did a Liberal wake up and smell the coffee?

Solution for GM
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

Bull****. What I'm against is bloated manufacturing, cars that won't
sell even in good times. I know you've never been in a down cycle
before because of your skill set and Union contacts, but I have - two
of them. And it hurt everytime I had to let people go, but that's
life. There aren't any quarentees - never have been, never will be.

That kind of thinking is what got us into this mess.

Insightful. I remember when GM screwed up their financials in 2005 and
reading about management didn't even know how bad it was bleeding. 2005 was
a good year.

Solution for GM
 

wrote in message
...
On Nov 17, 6:59 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
Here's an idea for the bailout versus bankruptcy debate as options for GM
(and possibly Ford and Chrysler)

Do both.

Agree to a government (taxpayer) financed cash infusion as part of the
reorganization plan in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

GM apparently has multiple, costly contractual obligations to suppliers,
for
unused facilities, pension plans, etc. that can only be restructured in a
bankruptcy situation, under the watch of a bankruptcy judge.

To pour money into GM without addressing these issues is, in the words of
the famous chant, "More of the same". GM will still be obligated to these
contracts, including retired pension and existing labor unions contracts.

Under Chapter 11 reorganization, GM can end contributions for existing
retired pensions. The cost of these pensions will be absorbed into an
existing federal pension insurance program (forget the name of it).

This arrangement will also afford GM to be completely restructured, lean
and
mean, and costly contractual obligations that are no longer of benefit can
be terminated by the bankruptcy judge.
The judge can also require labor union contracts to be renegotiated,
management replaced and/or restructured, including salary and perk caps.

Then, with the "new" GM structure in place, a taxpayer financed investment
makes sense to kick start the reorganized company with the money spent to
develop and market modern, fuel efficient vehicles at a cost that can be
competitive with the likes of Toyota and Honda.

It makes sense to me. I also think that Toyota and Honda are walking down
the same path as the US auto industry and eventually will become bloated
and
inefficient. We should restructure the US industry now, and stay ahead of
the curve.

Eisboch

Well, GM has already ripped the Canadian Govt. for millions in a loan.
**** your idea. As a taxpayer, I'm not giving them anything. Gee,
silver-spooner, why not give them some of your money.
The fat-payed CEO, and other over-payed leeches down the line , should
be held responsible.
--------
I think $756 million to be correct. This does not include all incentives
given. Spread over 30 million people or so. Would be like 7.56 billion to
the US.

They are really coming back for more and didn't keep their promises the
first time(s).

Once they are in your pocket, it is almost impossible to get them out.

It is why I want GM into chapter 11, where they can be forced to change or
die. Will in time cost me less in taxes. That is money I can spend on one
that survives and makes something I want.

Solution for GM
 

Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course the
almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down will
actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare bankruptcy
anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick up
the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about families
and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to bail
everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone out.
People learn when they eat the heat.


Fortunately, you aren't in charge of anything and never will be.

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

Solution for GM
 

JohnH wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:06:27 -0500, Boater wrote:

JohnH wrote:

The kid has shown the initiative and discipline to get herself a nice, big
scholarship.

She's even shown some courage, which is something you know nothing of.


Because she rides a motorcycle? That earns a scholarship and
demonstrates courage?

Besides, what the hell do you know about scholarship? You weren't smart
enough to get a IIA deferment.

Daddy better save up some buckaroos for college. There are no guarantees.

Think about it....how *did* I get a bachelors, a masters, and most of
another masters....drafted....and retired. My daddy saved up nothing for
college.

Are you sure you weren't one of those guys who found himself in front of
a judge looking at 6 months in jail or two years in the Army? :)

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course
the almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down
will actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare
bankruptcy anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick
up the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to
bail everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone
out. People learn when they eat the heat.


Fortunately, you aren't in charge of anything and never will be.

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

I wish your country would. We are told our best & brightest (including
doctors) head south for lower taxes & higher salaries.
The govt' then adjusts the tax brackets to the advantage of those making
over $80K to appease them.

Solution for GM
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Canuck57 wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Maybe it has something to do with the 3 million manufacturing and
ancillary jobs that will be lost if the Big Three fail, and of course
the almost total collapse of U.S. manufacturing capability.

So let one fail and the other three will get more sales. GM going down
will actually help Ford and Chysler!!!

There's no guarantee that if the Big Three go under or declare
bankruptcy anyone will move in to fill the vacuum.

Vacuums will be filled if they can make money. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota,
Honda, Nissan and other north american manufacturing facilities can pick
up the slack.

GM isn't the monolyth it was in 1946 when it's stock was worth more.

I know massive unemployment and the resulting tragedies mean nothing to
you Big Time Republicans, but those of us who actually care about
families and family values think otherwise. And so does the incoming
president.

What about the other 1,000,000+++ layed off already? Can't afford to
bail everyone out, maybe consider what is fair to all. Don't bail anyone
out. People learn when they eat the heat.


Fortunately, you aren't in charge of anything and never will be.

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

Don't worry, raise US taxes all you want. Just let me know so I can short a
few choice stocks. Good capitalists don't let emotion and rhetoric rule.
They get right past that at your expense not theirs.

Solution for GM
 

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:06:27 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Besides, what the hell do you know about scholarship? You weren't smart
enough to get a IIA deferment.

I was, had two academic (Holy Cross/Fordham) and two athletic (Boston
College/Wake Forest) full boat scholarships available to me and I
didn't take them.

Now, make something out of that.

Moron.

Solution for GM
 

More and more, I am favoring a super high tax rate against income higher
than a certain amount, amd mechanisms to cap corporate renumeration.

You're way off base as usual regarding the tax rate issue, but you're right
on target regarding corporate renumeration. Something has to be done with
these corporations running around and renumbering everything. Renumbering
this, renumbering that, it's got to stop, I tell you. Perhaps if
corporations would recruit talented executives and remunerate them
appropriately, all this rampant renumeration would come to an end.

Moron.