Thanks for the comments, Ann-Marie.

Andina Marie wrote:
Chuck, in over 20 years working on boats I've never encountered a boat
in the water on shore power that had zero volts across the Galvanic
Isolator. Just the zincs on your underwater metal will introduce about
0.5 volts DC.

I don't see how the zincs on your boat
can cause a current to flow through your
GI (and thus the shore power ground). In
the common case of a bronze prop and a
zinc on the shaft, for example, the
galvanic current passes through the
shaft. It does not pass through the GI.

A neighboring boat using the shore power
ground to complete a galvanic circuit
with your zinc would definitely cause a
current to flow in the GI.

Even if the neighboring boat was
protected with its own zinc, there could
still be a small galvanic couple created
with your zinc, especially in sal****er.
Not nearly as likely in fresh water.

Other than that, I would have a
difficult time explaining the voltages
you measure.

Chuck

Chuck, you're confusing current and voltage.

First consider the DC voltage measurement.

You don't have to have any current flowing in order to have a voltage
across the Galvanic Isolator. Think of the isolator as an on/off
switch. If the voltage across the switch is less than 1.2 volts the
switch stays off and a meter across the switch will read the voltage
with no current flowing. The zincs are used because they create a
voltage in the right direction to protect your underwater metal. They
also make your boat "alive" at a very low voltage to the water and it
is this (plus other influences) that you measure across the Galvanic
Isolator.

It is theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely, that other DC
voltages in the vicinity could completely cancel out the zinc but like
I said above, I've never seen one in 20 years of working on boats.

So if you read exactly zero volts across the Galvanic Isolator it is a
pretty good indication that the "switch" is shorted out and it is not
functioning.

Of course if you measure greater DC than 1.2 volts that indicates the
GI is open circuit.

Now consider the AC voltage measurement.

AC voltage across the GI can come from two sources. The first is AC
return or leakage from your own boat going or attempting to go back to
the dock. The second is AC voltages on the ground wire on the dock
attempting to go through your boat to the water. This latter can be
caused if a boat on the same dock circuit is mis-wired and returning
neutral current through the ground wire. The ground wire is typically
not designed to carry "working" currents so there is a voltage drop
along it back to the distribution point. This voltage can often be in
the range of 1 or 2 volts but occasionally I've seen higher and it
appears on the ground terminals on the dock and the dock side of your
GI.

AC voltage on its own does not create electrolysis however if it is
excessive it can cause blisters on metal boats where chlorine forms
under the anti-fouling paint. But that AC voltage is arriving across
the Galvanic Isolator. In one half cycle the AC voltage is subtracting
from the DC voltage but in the other half cycle it is ADDING to it. So
if your AC has a peak of 0.5 volts your DC protection is reduced from
1.2 volts down to 0.7 volts for a percentage of the time that increases
with the AC voltage to a worst case of 50%.

Putting a large capacitor across the Galvanic Isolator shorts out the
AC voltage while making no change to the DC and this prevents the AC
from piggybacking the DC through with it.

Regards,

Ann-Marie Foster,



chuck wrote:
Thanks for the comments, Ann-Marie.

Andina Marie wrote:
Chuck, in over 20 years working on boats I've never encountered a boat
in the water on shore power that had zero volts across the Galvanic
Isolator. Just the zincs on your underwater metal will introduce about
0.5 volts DC.

I don't see how the zincs on your boat
can cause a current to flow through your
GI (and thus the shore power ground). In
the common case of a bronze prop and a
zinc on the shaft, for example, the
galvanic current passes through the
shaft. It does not pass through the GI.

A neighboring boat using the shore power
ground to complete a galvanic circuit
with your zinc would definitely cause a
current to flow in the GI.

Even if the neighboring boat was
protected with its own zinc, there could
still be a small galvanic couple created
with your zinc, especially in sal****er.
Not nearly as likely in fresh water.

Other than that, I would have a
difficult time explaining the voltages
you measure.

Chuck

Andina Marie wrote:
Chuck, you're confusing current and voltage.


I try to keep them separate, Ann-Marie,
but there's so much resistance. ;-)

Here is where I was going. The zinc and
the bronze prop are two dissimilar
metals and when they are immersed in an
electrolyte, a voltage can be measured
between them. No current flows through
the water between them until they are
electrically connected, usually by the
prop shaft. Then the current path is
through the water, returning through the
shaft.

There is no measurable voltage between
the prop and the zinc because the shaft
acts as a short circuit. There is an
electric field between the two metals in
the water, however, and if we knew how
to do it, we could measure a voltage at
the surfaces of the electrodes.

This galvanic couple sits in the water
producing a current that involves the
loss of Zn ions until the zinc is
depleted. It should produce no voltages
or currents anywhere else, including
across the galvanic isolator.

There should be no potential difference
between the shaft (which presumably is
bonded to the boat's DC and AC ground)
and the shore power ground due to the
zinc. Think about the boat's 12 VDC
system powering onboard lighting
circuits. There is no reason to believe
any of that 12 volts will show up as a
potential difference between the boat's
DC ground and the shore power ground,
barring some wiring anomaly.

The zinc/bronze galvanic couple no more
makes the boat "alive" than the boat's
onboard 12 VDC system, which also forms
a closed circuit.

Regarding the operation of a
semiconductor diode, it is good to
remember that the voltage across a
forward-biased diode is related to the
current through it. If a voltage is
measured, then there is a current
through it. Alternatively, if there is a
current through it, a voltage can be
measured. The VI characteristic is
highly non-linear of course.

A voltage of 1.2 volts measured across a
pair of series-connected silicon diodes
(like the 1N1190A) suggests a current on
the order of 100 mA or more! That is far
more current than you should ever
measure through a zinc/bronze galvanic
couple on a yacht even if your
measurement were directly between the
zinc and the prop.

Here's a suggestion: next time you
measure a DC voltage across a GI, make a
note of the polarity. From the direction
of electron flow, you can determine
whether the current you observe is
protecting the zinc or depleting it. See
if the polarity is always the same, or
if it is random.

I would try to track down what is
causing those readings.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

chuck wrote:

Andina Marie wrote:
Chuck, you're confusing current and voltage.


I try to keep them separate, Ann-Marie,
but there's so much resistance. ;-)

Here is where I was going. The zinc and
the bronze prop are two dissimilar
metals and when they are immersed in an
electrolyte, a voltage can be measured
between them. No current flows through
the water between them until they are
electrically connected, usually by the
prop shaft. Then the current path is
through the water, returning through the
shaft.

There is no measurable voltage between
the prop and the zinc because the shaft
acts as a short circuit. There is an
electric field between the two metals in
the water, however, and if we knew how
to do it, we could measure a voltage at
the surfaces of the electrodes.

This galvanic couple sits in the water
producing a current that involves the
loss of Zn ions until the zinc is
depleted. It should produce no voltages
or currents anywhere else, including
across the galvanic isolator.

There should be no potential difference
between the shaft (which presumably is
bonded to the boat's DC and AC ground)
and the shore power ground due to the
zinc. Think about the boat's 12 VDC
system powering onboard lighting
circuits. There is no reason to believe
any of that 12 volts will show up as a
potential difference between the boat's
DC ground and the shore power ground,
barring some wiring anomaly.

Think of the shore power ground as a connection to the rest of the
world. A world with structures and ground rods that may be in contact
with sea water, but have no provisions for galvanic protection
themselves. If you have zincs on your boat, there will be a current (and
your zincs will dissolve). If you break that circuit, you will see the
voltage of that galvanic cell (the one between your zincs and the rest
of the world).

The zinc/bronze galvanic couple no more
makes the boat "alive" than the boat's
onboard 12 VDC system, which also forms
a closed circuit.

Regarding the operation of a
semiconductor diode, it is good to
remember that the voltage across a
forward-biased diode is related to the
current through it. If a voltage is
measured, then there is a current
through it. Alternatively, if there is a
current through it, a voltage can be
measured. The VI characteristic is
highly non-linear of course.

You can assume that the IV characteristic of a single silicon diode is
such that when forward biased but below 0.6 V, the current will be on
the order of microamps. The diode forms (effectively) an open circuit.
For two diodes, it's 1.2V.

A voltage of 1.2 volts measured across a
pair of series-connected silicon diodes
(like the 1N1190A) suggests a current on
the order of 100 mA or more! That is far
more current than you should ever
measure through a zinc/bronze galvanic
couple on a yacht even if your
measurement were directly between the
zinc and the prop.

True. But the voltage produced by a zinc-bronze or zinc-steel
electrochemical cell is low. The idea is that the resistance of the
current path on your own boat is low enough so that the zincs produce
the desired effect (they erode to protect your fittings). But the path
between your zincs and the fittings on every other boat in the marina is
high. It doesn't matter how many other boat fittings there are in the
water, the electrochemical reaction can only produce a voltage which
depends on the metals involved and the chemistry of sea water. As long
as the GI's diode drop exceeds voltage, no current (well, maybe
microamps) will flow. But, like a battery not connected to a load, the
'battery voltage' will be measurable across the open (the GI).

If you are measuring anything close to the GI's diode drop, it means
that it could have started to conduct. But since the zinc
electrochemistry isn't likely the source of this high a voltage, other
problems should be suspected. Bad wiring has the potential (no pun
intended) to put up to 12 Vdc or 115 Vac on a ground.


Here's a suggestion: next time you
measure a DC voltage across a GI, make a
note of the polarity. From the direction
of electron flow, you can determine
whether the current you observe is
protecting the zinc or depleting it. See
if the polarity is always the same, or
if it is random.

If you are seeing a voltage across the GI (less than the GI's blocking
voltage), it will be in one direction or another, depending on whether
your zincs are in better or worse shape than the rest of the marina's.
But below the blocking voltage (about 1.2 V) there should be no current.

I would try to track down what is
causing those readings.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Klein bottle for rent -- inquire within

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

Think of the shore power ground as a
connection to the rest of the
world. A world with structures and
ground rods that may be in contact
with sea water, but have no provisions
for galvanic protection
themselves. If you have zincs on your
boat, there will be a current (and
your zincs will dissolve). If you break
that circuit, you will see the
voltage of that galvanic cell (the one
between your zincs and the rest
of the world).

Well, that's only half of the situation.
Your prop and any underwater metals
will also form galvanic cells with the
rest of the world, of different polarity
and potential difference. There is a
burden here of demonstrating that on
average these do not cancel, and a
greater burden of demonstrating that
their net effect is a 1.2 volt cell. But
the 1.2 volts measured was NOT an
open-circuit voltage measurement, but
one across a functioning GI.

The discussion has gone open loop. Here
is a recap.

1. An assertion was made that 0 VDC
across a GI means the diode(s) are shorted.

2. I suggested that 0 VDC also meant the
absence of galvanic currents through the
shore power ground wire; a good thing.

3. A counter-assertion was made that
there is always 1.2 VDC across a
properly functioning (NOT open-circuit)
GI due to the boat's zinc.

4. I suggested there was no path for the
boat's zinc/bronze galvanic current to
pass through the shore power grounding
wire and some other explanation was
called for.

5. An assertion was made that the
galvanic couple in 4 made the boat
"live" and that led to the measured 1.2
VDC across the GI.

6. I responded that the assertion failed
to identify the current path by which
this occurred. Further, I observed that
a measured forward voltage of 0.6 volts
per diode was equivalent to a forward
current on the order of 100 mA, and that
was far in excess of the currents found
in typical yacht-based galvanic couples.

7. A contrary assertion was made that at
0,6 volts, the forward current in a
diode is on the order of only microamps.

And so here we are. I don't know your
basis for that assertion, Paul.

Disregarding what has come to be the
normal protocol for some in the group, I
actually measured a 1N1190A (I use them
in the GI's I build) a few moments ago.
The forward current at 675 millivolts is
100 milliamperes. Using a Keithley
electrometer, I measured a forward
current of about 10 microamps at a
voltage of 300 mV, consistent with the
675 mV/100 mA measurement.

Even the 1N914 signal diodes pass almost
one mA (about 700 microamps per the
datasheet) for a forward voltage drop of
600 mV.

Here is where the discussion stands:

I. An observed anomalous current of ~100
mA DC is measured across a GI. (Actually
the measurement was 0.6 volts DC and
there is disagreement over every aspect
of that measurement.)

II. The current path (of 100 mA) between
the boat's zinc/bronze couple and the
shore power ground has not been
identified although much hand-waving has
transpired.

III. There is seemingly irreconcilable
disagreement about metrology, Ohm's law,
diode VI characteristics (e.g., the
switch analogy), and the properties of
galvanic currents.

Your patience with me is appreciated,
but there are other callings.

Chuck

PS: Paul, I inadvertently seem to have
sent an earlier draft of this directly
to you rather than to the group. No idea
how that happened, but my apologies.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

That is a better analysis, Chuck. But two corrections.

1. Think of the zinc and the prop as joined together electrically so
they are at the same voltage as you indicate. Current is flowing
between them. The amount of current is limited by the resistance of
the water so you can consider the water as a resistor connected between
them. This resistor (the water) also is connected to the dock, and
other boats in the vicinity so the voltage of your boat (at the
junction of zinc and prop) will be somewhere between the two. If there
is 0.9 volts available it would be reasonable to assume this makes the
boat at about 0.45 volts to the water, and the dock etc. So this
voltage will always be present across a galvanic isolator and it is
extremely unlikely you would read zero volts with a GI in working
condition.

2. You are incorrect in saying

"Regarding the operation of a
semiconductor diode, it is good to
remember that the voltage across a
forward-biased diode is related to the
current through it. If a voltage is
measured, then there is a current
through it. "

That is wrong. No current flows through a diode until it reaches about
0.6 volts for silicone. It is like a switch that won't turn on until
it gets to 0.6 volts. Once it turns on the voltage across it
essentially stays at about 0.6 independent of current. You can't
determine the current flowing through it by observing the voltage. It
does not behave like a resistor. That is how a galvanic isolator
works. With two diodes in series (each direction) NO CURRENT flows
until the voltage gets above 1.2 volts.

Regards,

Ann-Marie Foster,

Andina Marie wrote:
That is a better analysis, Chuck. But two corrections.

1. Think of the zinc and the prop as joined together electrically so
they are at the same voltage as you indicate. Current is flowing
between them. The amount of current is limited by the resistance of
the water so you can consider the water as a resistor connected between
them.

I'm with you this far.

This resistor (the water) also is
connected to the dock, and
other boats in the vicinity so the voltage of your boat (at the
junction of zinc and prop) will be somewhere between the two.

Which end of the "resistor" is connected
to the dock? Why not both ends with full
cancellation?

If there
is 0.9 volts available it would be reasonable to assume this makes the
boat at about 0.45 volts to the water, and the dock etc. So this
voltage will always be present across a galvanic isolator and it is
extremely unlikely you would read zero volts with a GI in working
condition.


Sorry, Ann-Marie, but no cigar.

2. You are incorrect in saying

"Regarding the operation of a
semiconductor diode, it is good to
remember that the voltage across a
forward-biased diode is related to the
current through it. If a voltage is
measured, then there is a current
through it. "

That is wrong. No current flows through a diode until it reaches about
0.6 volts for silicone. It is like a switch that won't turn on until
it gets to 0.6 volts. Once it turns on the voltage across it
essentially stays at about 0.6 independent of current. You can't
determine the current flowing through it by observing the voltage. It
does not behave like a resistor. That is how a galvanic isolator
works. With two diodes in series (each direction) NO CURRENT flows
until the voltage gets above 1.2 volts.

Regards,

Ann-Marie Foster,



Well, that explains why our discussion
is not moving toward closure. Please
take a few moments and go the this website:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/1N/1N914A.html
Product Folder - Fairchild P/N 1N914A -
High Conductance Fast Diode

Download the datasheet and on page 2,
figures 3 and 4, you will see the
manufacturer's take on whether there is
a relationship between forward voltage
and current. You'll see that there is
absolutely nothing magical about 600 mV
in a V log I plot. It IS like a
(non-linear) resistor.

The relationship between current and
voltage for a pn junction is
well-established and has been for more
than half a century.

Finally, take a variable voltage source,
a 100 ohm resistor and a diode. Put them
in series and adjust the voltage so
there is, say, 300 millivolts across the
diode. You will be able to measure a
current through the diode of something
like one to ten microamps. Change the
voltage and watch the current change.

Then go back and read the posts.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

chuck wrote in news:1153748524_106745
@sp6iad.superfeed.net:

Using a Keithley
electrometer, I measured a forward
current of about 10 microamps at a
voltage of 300 mV, consistent with the
675 mV/100 mA measurement.


At this level, a lot of what the Keithley is measuring is the diode's own
generated voltage. Hook the Keithley to a silicon diode sitting on the
bench, not attached to anything. Depending on how hot it is (and how close
to any radioactivity it is), there's always a junction voltage from the
thermionic emission of the junction, itself.

Got a hot radioactive source around? Keep the Keithley across the diode
and move the diode up against any beta or gamma sources and watch it fly...
(c;

(Depleted uranium bullets are great for this experiment. They're free in
Afghanistan and Iraq...)

Which Keithley is it? I used to repair and cal them at the Metrology
Laboratory of the Quality Assurance Office, Charleston Naval Shipyard (Code
132)...may she rest in peace.

Larry wrote:


At this level, a lot of what the Keithley is measuring is the diode's own
generated voltage. Hook the Keithley to a silicon diode sitting on the
bench, not attached to anything. Depending on how hot it is (and how close
to any radioactivity it is), there's always a junction voltage from the
thermionic emission of the junction, itself.


Indeed! Actually the junction voltage
was ~50 millivolts so I "tuned it out"
as they say.

Got a hot radioactive source around? Keep the Keithley across the diode
and move the diode up against any beta or gamma sources and watch it fly...
(c;

(Depleted uranium bullets are great for this experiment. They're free in
Afghanistan and Iraq...)

I could try a smoke detector or Coleman
lantern mantle with thorium, I guess.
I'll pass on the DU though.


Which Keithley is it? I used to repair and cal them at the Metrology
Laboratory of the Quality Assurance Office, Charleston Naval Shipyard (Code
132)...may she rest in peace.



It's a 610B with electrometer tubes.
Works amazingly well for its age. It
does have a personality as you know.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

chuck wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

Think of the shore power ground as a
connection to the rest of the
world. A world with structures and
ground rods that may be in contact
with sea water, but have no provisions
for galvanic protection
themselves. If you have zincs on your
boat, there will be a current (and
your zincs will dissolve). If you break
that circuit, you will see the
voltage of that galvanic cell (the one
between your zincs and the rest
of the world).

Well, that's only half of the situation.
Your prop and any underwater metals
will also form galvanic cells with the
rest of the world, of different polarity
and potential difference. There is a
burden here of demonstrating that on
average these do not cancel, and a
greater burden of demonstrating that
their net effect is a 1.2 volt cell. But
the 1.2 volts measured was NOT an
open-circuit voltage measurement, but
one across a functioning GI.

The discussion has gone open loop. Here
is a recap.

1. An assertion was made that 0 VDC
across a GI means the diode(s) are shorted.

2. I suggested that 0 VDC also meant the
absence of galvanic currents through the
shore power ground wire; a good thing.

Either 1 or 2 could be true.

3. A counter-assertion was made that
there is always 1.2 VDC across a
properly functioning (NOT open-circuit)
GI due to the boat's zinc.

No. Less than 1.2V for this case. The potential between Zn and Cu in a
'standard cell' is about 1.1V. It is likely to be less than that in sea
water. Cu (copper) is one of the most electrically positive metals you
are likely to find in common use. So actual potentials are likely to be
much lower.

4. I suggested there was no path for the
boat's zinc/bronze galvanic current to
pass through the shore power grounding
wire and some other explanation was
called for.

- your boat - - the rest of the world -
+-------+------------shore pwr gnd-------+----------+-------+--------+
| | (w/o GI) | | | |
Zn Bronze more bronze steel aluminum
copper

-------------------------------- sea water
----------------------------

There are parallel paths through your zincs, your own prop (bronze) and
what might be
tons of metal in the outside world. While your zincs will protect your
prop, they will
also 'protect' the rest of the world. Since your zincs dissolve to
provide this protection,
they will just dissolve faster when connected to more metal. End result,
your zincs get
eaten up in days.


5. An assertion was made that the
galvanic couple in 4 made the boat
"live" and that led to the measured 1.2
VDC across the GI.

The galvanic couple might generate a few tenths of a volt between 'the
world' and your boat ground. If you see something near 1.2 volts, there
is something else going on. The GI diodes will maintain a 1.2 volt drop
for current levels from 10s of milliamps to many amps, so if you see
1.2V, suspect trouble.

6. I responded that the assertion failed
to identify the current path by which
this occurred. Further, I observed that
a measured forward voltage of 0.6 volts
per diode was equivalent to a forward
current on the order of 100 mA, and that
was far in excess of the currents found
in typical yacht-based galvanic couples.

0.6 V per diode is close to the knee in its I-V characteristic.
Depending on the exact diode, that might mean that it is conducting 10
mA. Or maybe 1 A. The various opens and shorts that might combine to put
this kind of current (plus amateur wiring jobs) are too numerous to list
here.

There shouldn't be any galvanic reactions that will exceed a double
diode (1.2V) drop.

7. A contrary assertion was made that at
0,6 volts, the forward current in a
diode is on the order of only microamps.

No. I said _below_ 0.6 volts.

And so here we are. I don't know your
basis for that assertion, Paul.

Disregarding what has come to be the
normal protocol for some in the group, I
actually measured a 1N1190A (I use them
in the GI's I build) a few moments ago.
The forward current at 675 millivolts is
100 milliamperes. Using a Keithley
electrometer, I measured a forward
current of about 10 microamps at a
voltage of 300 mV, consistent with the
675 mV/100 mA measurement.

Even the 1N914 signal diodes pass almost
one mA (about 700 microamps per the
datasheet) for a forward voltage drop of
600 mV.

And 100 uA at 500 mV and 12 uA at 400 mV. Its an exponential function
and current drops off very rapidly for forward voltages below 600 mV.

Here is where the discussion stands:

I. An observed anomalous current of ~100
mA DC is measured across a GI. (Actually
the measurement was 0.6 volts DC and
there is disagreement over every aspect
of that measurement.)

Did you actually measure that current? Given your above measurements, a
GI (with good diodes) should not conduct 100 mA with a 0.6 volt drop
(I'm assuming a double diode drop in each direction).

II. The current path (of 100 mA) between
the boat's zinc/bronze couple and the
shore power ground has not been
identified although much hand-waving has
transpired.

If the above measurements are valid (both I and V), I'd assume that one
of the GI diodes is bad (shorted). 100 mA at 0.6 V forward is near the
VI curve I'd expect for a single diode.

III. There is seemingly irreconcilable
disagreement about metrology, Ohm's law,
diode VI characteristics (e.g., the
switch analogy), and the properties of
galvanic currents.

Your patience with me is appreciated,
but there are other callings.

Chuck

PS: Paul, I inadvertently seem to have
sent an earlier draft of this directly
to you rather than to the group. No idea
how that happened, but my apologies.

That's OK. I'll respond here, so others may comment.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Marching to a different kettle of fish.