Counterpoise-an artificial substitute for earth, used to prevent signal
loss to "earth" and in essence reflecting signal to the hemisphere
opposite "earth" and in an ideal wotld would effectively double the
signal propagated to that hemisphere as compared to the hemisphere
inclusive of earth; this not being a perfect world there is a loss to
earth,but then we would be getting into wave theory....
I've seen all the fields you claim to be an "expert" in all over the
usernet,which would have to make you,what, about 150 years old? You're
a real candidate for Ripley's...
I probably have more time on a marine toilet than you have on boats...
I feel sorry for you, you tired and lonely old man....
On second thought, crawl back under your bridge, troll!

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:03:00 GMT, Me wrote:

Me just an "Old Fart" in semi-retirment........

=====================================

And all the time I was thinking you were "Bruce in Alaska".

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:03:00 GMT, Me wrote:

Me just an "Old Fart" in semi-retirment........

=====================================

And all the time I was thinking you were "Bruce in Alaska".

And that, Marc, I hope answers the questions you posed to this experienced
group!

Old Chief Lynn

Yes, thanks to all , especially markvictor. Very lucid, concise and
unambiguaous.





On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:06:22 -0800, "Lynn Coffelt"
wrote:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:03:00 GMT, Me wrote:

Me just an "Old Fart" in semi-retirment........

=====================================

And all the time I was thinking you were "Bruce in Alaska".

And that, Marc, I hope answers the questions you posed to this experienced
group!

Old Chief Lynn

I have been away for awhile so haven't read this group in some time.
Things haven't changed much. Still entertaining though.

Seems like lots of hand waving and chest thumping going on in this
thread.

I suppose I can stir the pot a little too.

The important thing you want to watch for in the bonding system of all
items on the boat is that it should not carry any current anywhere. If
it does then there can be a slight difference in voltage between
grounded items and that will cause electrolysis of underwater items.

This is where a single point connection between different grounds is
important. I.e. bonding system, DC ground and AC ground. If all the
underwater items are bonded together and only one point from that goes
to the other grounds it will help eliminate the chances of there being
any current through various points on the bonding system.
And yes it is important for the AC system to be grounded at this point
also. All metal items on the boat that have power to them should have
a common ground to prevent shock in case of a fault in some item.

While AC current does not cause electrolysis of underwater components,
any DC current that may be carried on the AC line will.

Some boats are wired with isolated systems to try and prevent
electrolysis in that way. While some are successful most are not as it
is almost impossible to maintain a system like that unless on a very
small boat.

One of the hand wavers made a comment about GFCI breakers not being
effective without a ground. That is far from the truth as a GFCI does
not depend on ground to operate. It looks to see if the the supply and
return currents are equal between the hot and neutral lines feeding
it. If they are not it will trip and open the circuit. If the currents
are not equal in both wires that means that the current has found an
alternate path other than the intended return wire.

There were also some kind of silly comments made about not grounding
the SSB antenna and signals bouncing off a counterpoise and ground and
a counterpoise doubling the signal??

It is entertaining if nothing else.

Regards
Gary



On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:56:33 -0500, Marc wrote:

Yes, thanks to all , especially markvictor. Very lucid, concise and
unambiguaous.





On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:06:22 -0800, "Lynn Coffelt"
wrote:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:03:00 GMT, Me wrote:

Me just an "Old Fart" in semi-retirment........

=====================================

And all the time I was thinking you were "Bruce in Alaska".

And that, Marc, I hope answers the questions you posed to this experienced
group!

Old Chief Lynn

Read it agaln, Gary... it does not say the signal doubles, it is
doubling the signal radiated hemispherically opposite earth,as compared
to a signal with no conterpoise to prevent signal propagation equally
in all directions...in a perfect world...but not being perfect there is
loss to grond depending on placement and conductivity vs. reflectivity,
etc
..... and if you read the thread this whole life altering issue has
mutated from a suggestion that one would not be well suited by
grounding their backstay if using it as an antenna

================================================== ============
The most obvious effect is that the ground forces the antenna's
radiation pattern to appear in the half-space above the ground. This is
illustrated by comparing the radiation around a monopole fed against
ground to that of a dipole in free-space. The monopole has twice the
power in the hemisphere above the ground compared with the power in
either hemisphere of symmetry for the dipole in free-space.
================================================== =============

So as you are saying, a dipole element has no counterpoise? A vertical
radiates twice as much as half a dipole? The vertical element radiates
half the power and the ground radiates the other half?
"hemispherically opposite earth". Now I wonder what that one means?

Grounding the back stay will cause it to not radiate if using it as an
antenna?

The hand waving goes on although it seems a little more vigorous.

I don't know how you worked all that into a question about wiring but
maybe you want to check some of your references again as to how things
work a little.

And yes I did read most of the thread. Quite amusing. I have no clue
what you are trying to say and I am sure many others also don't.

Regards
Gary



On 16 Dec 2005 19:04:43 -0800, "markvictor"
wrote:

Read it agaln, Gary... it does not say the signal doubles, it is
doubling the signal radiated hemispherically opposite earth,as compared
to a signal with no conterpoise to prevent signal propagation equally
in all directions...in a perfect world...but not being perfect there is
loss to grond depending on placement and conductivity vs. reflectivity,
etc
.... and if you read the thread this whole life altering issue has
mutated from a suggestion that one would not be well suited by
grounding their backstay if using it as an antenna

================================================= =============
The most obvious effect is that the ground forces the antenna's
radiation pattern to appear in the half-space above the ground. This is
illustrated by comparing the radiation around a monopole fed against
ground to that of a dipole in free-space. The monopole has twice the
power in the hemisphere above the ground compared with the power in
either hemisphere of symmetry for the dipole in free-space.
================================================= ==============

Only the clueless hav no clue...

I repeat "Read it again, Gary." the example I gave is an
illustration......read what it says and apply your thought process
instead of your reactionary ....If you did read the thread you would
know where the question developed...or perhaps you can find someone to
read it to you so you don't miss anything,since you admit in your post
that in fact you have not read it all.
And FYI, the illustration I used is derived from Ralph Holland's
Amateur Radfg 1996 ....

hemisphere=half-space