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Semi-Permanent Onboard PC?
Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive ruggedized version. I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it market research. I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what features are you looking for? Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards, and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may be useful on your boat? Thanks in advance for any ideas! |
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I see a lot of good ideas from the other posts but the biggest issue I see
is having a LCD screen (or some other technology screen) in the cockpit that is readable in daylight. I have tried various laptops but none of them provide sufficient screen intenisty to be readable in bright sunlight. I know there are some expensivve monitors out there but the monitor should not cost more than the computer it connects to. So whatever the PC is or where ever it is located seem to be a secondary issue to having a monitor that is of use in the cockpit and doesn't cost $$$$. wrote in message ups.com... Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive ruggedized version. I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it market research. I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what features are you looking for? Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards, and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may be useful on your boat? Thanks in advance for any ideas! |
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Len wrote in
: Nice to write this letter to santa... :) Don't forget the NMEA RS-422 ports and the built-in NMEA 16 port multiplexers... -- Larry |
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"Terry Conner" wrote in message ...
I see a lot of good ideas from the other posts but the biggest issue I see is having a LCD screen (or some other technology screen) in the cockpit that is readable in daylight. Have you considered making a hood, like older radar displays and oscilliscopes had? If anyone has done this I would like to hear from them. Any enlightenment will be appreciated. Vic -- __________________________________________________ ______ Victor Fraenckel - The Windman victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom KC2GUI |
Red Cloud® wrote in
: That's not enough to overcome the problem. You need a display with a very high "NIT" number if you want to see it in daylight. That involves a high price. A hood won't come close to solving the issue. The average laptop screen appears completely blank in sunlight. rusty What's needed is a laptop display that's REFLECTIVE, like the LCD displays on your sailing instruments, wrist watch, PDA....instead of the TRANSMISSIVE backlit display they come with so you can see 'em in the dark. I'm looking at a large LCD thermometer display I took out into the sunshine, today, to see how high it would read. The bank clock was reading 102F when I came by it! -- Larry |
I have been looking for a PDA reflective type for some time now but
what we do have is a Solarism 15inch high brightness monitor. It is mounted inside a cut down electric box which has a fan assisted durad box on the rear to keep the display cool. http://princessownersclub.fotopic.net/p595958.html That is the actual view from the display on a bright cloudy day. Direct sunlight is just about readable but the thing is that the display is cheap and has multiple video inputs so we can use it with a bullet cctv camera for reversing (going astern ;-). Any websites I have seen with reflective displays usually don't display price ie. if you need to ask then it's too expensive... Hope this helps Markdj http://www.stronge.org.uk |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:00:08 +0200, Remco Moedt
wrote: Sounds like a system based on a VIA mini ITX.... :-) Let's say I was inspired by it.... I don't think it's got all the features I mentioned though. |
Equally I have been hunting for a sunlight viewable screen. Apparently what
is wanted is a transflective LCD screen which uses sunlight to brighten the image. Just using powerful backlights doesn't work because a) they really can not compete with the sun for brilliance, and b) they will use a lot of power. Having found your screen, you need to be able to control the computer, so a touch screen is the way to go. So here come the snags. Using a resistive or capacitative touchscreen adds a piece of "glass" to the front of the transflective screen. You loose about 15% of the sunlight going in, and a further 15% of the light coming out ( almost 30% on a sunny day). Apparently there are other touchscreen technologies such as Infra Red (IR) which does not use a covering piece of glass, but there are questions here whether the cursor follows the rain running down the screen. Additional problems with regards to waterproofing. Apparently there is a waterproof standard of IP65. A number of manufacturers have it "just round the corner" but I'll believe it when I see it. Prices quoted to me for a 12.1" screen vary between £1200 to £2400. "MDJ" wrote in message ups.com... I have been looking for a PDA reflective type for some time now but what we do have is a Solarism 15inch high brightness monitor. It is mounted inside a cut down electric box which has a fan assisted durad box on the rear to keep the display cool. http://princessownersclub.fotopic.net/p595958.html That is the actual view from the display on a bright cloudy day. Direct sunlight is just about readable but the thing is that the display is cheap and has multiple video inputs so we can use it with a bullet cctv camera for reversing (going astern ;-). Any websites I have seen with reflective displays usually don't display price ie. if you need to ask then it's too expensive... Hope this helps Markdj http://www.stronge.org.uk |
Here's your competition: http://www.bigbaytech.com/index.htm. These
guys have a complete line of marine computing equipment, including desktops, laptops, daylight viewable and weather resistant displays, etc. I have one of their bookshelf computers permanently installed for navigation and love it. |
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This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah,
I'm still here! I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible. For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform. Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be used for different purposes. A few questions/follow ups: - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. - a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station? - Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB. The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To perhaps limit the need to access the back? - Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives, etc...). - as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card. - it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600). All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution, costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course). I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display, but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so (please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external monitor to a digital video source. Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming! Eric |
wrote in message
oups.com... - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. If those serial ports are to be used for nav instruments, it would be safer to use a multiplexer, connected to the PC through USB. If the PC fails (OS crash or nav software crash) all NMEA data is still routed and combined through the external multiplexer and available for repeaters, GPS and autopilot, so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is down. Meindert |
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Meindert Sprang wrote:
.... so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is down. and of you're using Windows...you know it's not if but when it goes down |
"Len" wrote in message
... Eric, Glad you're still here... :-) - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. Of course there are multiplexers but I'd like to avoid added complexity. But added safety. Larry mentioned another type of port for nmea. Can't these be used? Larry probably mentioned my multiplexers too :-) I lack real understanding here. All I know I want to connect multiple nmea talkers like gps, wind, depth, compass, ais, and I want to let my nav prog talk to my autopilot. And if your nav program or the computer goes down, you have nothing. With a multiplexer, you can still feed the GPS data to the autopilot, because for instance the ones that I produce, automatically fall back to a pass-through mode where the GPS data directly goes to the autopilot when the connected computer does not send any data for more than 10 seconds. Talking of usb, I find this tech somewhat disappointing regarding power supply. When I want to connect my usb-stick wifi-antenna the show stops when I use a cable of 3 meters. XP says tehere something wrong with the power supply. That is because USB can feed only 500mA to a device. Wifi uses a lot of power, so I'm not surprised that with 3m of cable, the voltgage drop is too high. - Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives, etc...). What I meant was it should be very simple to deal with a hdu-crash, the biggest risk remaining when the pc is solid state. In my thoughts I only have external hdu's and would keep say two external hdu's "synchronized" so when one fails I have a near 100% backup including OS and installed software I only have to connect my other unit: up and running again in a minute. It would be better in this case, to install XP Embedded, which can run from a CF card without wearing out the limited write cycles of a CF card. The card can be used write-protected so a crash can NEVER distroy your OS installation. Put the nav software on the same card and load the charts from a harddisk or SB stick, which you can easily upgrade. You can even install a second XP on the harddisk, use this for entertainment while using the CF installation for navigation only. Meindert |
Gee - Meindert,
Where do you think that might come from? (Actually, that is a real good idea, but with the number of boats out there that have one circuit for "radio" and the VHF and the stereo are both on the same fuse, I'm not sure it would be easy to sell.) Matt Colie Meindert Sprang wrote: wrote in message oups.com... - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. If those serial ports are to be used for nav instruments, it would be safer to use a multiplexer, connected to the PC through USB. If the PC fails (OS crash or nav software crash) all NMEA data is still routed and combined through the external multiplexer and available for repeaters, GPS and autopilot, so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is down. Meindert |
Eric,
Glad you're still here... :-) - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. Of course there are multiplexers but I'd like to avoid added complexity. Larry mentioned another type of port for nmea. Can't these be used? I lack real understanding here. All I know I want to connect multiple nmea talkers like gps, wind, depth, compass, ais, and I want to let my nav prog talk to my autopilot. Non-nmea would be my cell phone and my Victron inverter/charger that I want to monitor/program by pc. - a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station? - Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB. The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To perhaps limit the need to access the back? Bulkhead, that was the term I was looking for, thanks. The answer is yes. I'd like to connect the peripheral in a simple way, with having to play the acrobat. A hub with say 4 connectors to build into the bulkhead would do. Talking of usb, I find this tech somewhat disappointing regarding power supply. When I want to connect my usb-stick wifi-antenna the show stops when I use a cable of 3 meters. XP says tehere something wrong with the power supply. - Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives, etc...). What I meant was it should be very simple to deal with a hdu-crash, the biggest risk remaining when the pc is solid state. In my thoughts I only have external hdu's and would keep say two external hdu's "synchronized" so when one fails I have a near 100% backup including OS and installed software I only have to connect my other unit: up and running again in a minute. (Maybe this one appeals to the anxiety many pc-owners have imo about pc-reliability. Combine this with the fact navigational software and charts become more an more vital (sometimes even too vital when you ask me), and you have a major reassuring advantage to offer). - as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card. Oh, I also want to be sure I'll wake up when my anchor moves: my anchor alarm should not just "beep" like a scared mouse over 15 feet away but should really wake me even when sleeping in my bunk after 2/3 nights without much sleep, of course with minimal power consumption. Regards, Len. This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah, I'm still here! I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible. For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform. Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be used for different purposes. A few questions/follow ups: - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. - a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station? - Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB. The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To perhaps limit the need to access the back? - Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives, etc...). - as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card. - it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600). All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution, costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course). I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display, but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so (please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external monitor to a digital video source. Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming! Eric |
VIA is too slow. Base it on a pentium M. There are itx boards available
for that processor. wrote in message oups.com... This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah, I'm still here! I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible. For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform. Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be used for different purposes. A few questions/follow ups: - 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms, most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not impossible by any means though. - a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station? - Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB. The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To perhaps limit the need to access the back? - Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives, etc...). - as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card. - it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600). All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution, costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course). I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display, but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so (please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external monitor to a digital video source. Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming! Eric |
I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most laptops.
Let me give some observations. 0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative of energy as well. 1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it. Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced. 2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the back would be oh so much nicer. 3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17" UXGA monitor except on laptops. 4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as well as the component system. 5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it. I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing. wrote in message ups.com... Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive ruggedized version. I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it market research. I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what features are you looking for? Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards, and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may be useful on your boat? Thanks in advance for any ideas! |
How about a Fujitsu tablet PC with a Otterbox waterproof case.
http://www.otterbox.com/products/pc_cases/index.htm "Phil Stanton" wrote in message ... Equally I have been hunting for a sunlight viewable screen. Apparently what is wanted is a transflective LCD screen which uses sunlight to brighten the image. Just using powerful backlights doesn't work because a) they really can not compete with the sun for brilliance, and b) they will use a lot of power. Having found your screen, you need to be able to control the computer, so a touch screen is the way to go. So here come the snags. Using a resistive or capacitative touchscreen adds a piece of "glass" to the front of the transflective screen. You loose about 15% of the sunlight going in, and a further 15% of the light coming out ( almost 30% on a sunny day). Apparently there are other touchscreen technologies such as Infra Red (IR) which does not use a covering piece of glass, but there are questions here whether the cursor follows the rain running down the screen. Additional problems with regards to waterproofing. Apparently there is a waterproof standard of IP65. A number of manufacturers have it "just round the corner" but I'll believe it when I see it. Prices quoted to me for a 12.1" screen vary between £1200 to £2400. "MDJ" wrote in message ups.com... I have been looking for a PDA reflective type for some time now but what we do have is a Solarism 15inch high brightness monitor. It is mounted inside a cut down electric box which has a fan assisted durad box on the rear to keep the display cool. http://princessownersclub.fotopic.net/p595958.html That is the actual view from the display on a bright cloudy day. Direct sunlight is just about readable but the thing is that the display is cheap and has multiple video inputs so we can use it with a bullet cctv camera for reversing (going astern ;-). Any websites I have seen with reflective displays usually don't display price ie. if you need to ask then it's too expensive... Hope this helps Markdj http://www.stronge.org.uk |
We have a wireless trackball which can be used inside at the helm or
taken up to the flybridge for controlling PC there so a touchscreen is unnecessary. I agree that a LCD transflective is the way to go but you find me a 15inch 1024x768 transflective display for resonabl emoney and I'll be happy.... the solarism we have uses backlighting and was about =A3350... Good cruising Mdj |
I am with you on this idea. I have been building my own pc's for 13
years now and am working out what to build into a boat I recently bought. I will be watching this thread with great interest. I se no reason to take up desktop or tabletop space with a laptop when I can build the components inside a compartment instead. I'll also have my own choices for keyboards, displays, and other devices. I am thinking of working from a Shuttle-X base. One thing I am considering is being able to run the OS and primary programs from flash drives while sailing. 1 gig drives are common now and I expect size will increase and cost will drop over the next year. Why have a spinning hard drive when it can be avoided for much of the time? When dockside and doing my heavy duty work and surfing I have no problem spinning up a hard drive. |
wrote in message
... One thing I am considering is being able to run the OS and primary programs from flash drives while sailing. 1 gig drives are common now and I expect size will increase and cost will drop over the next year. Make sure your OS is suitable for that. A normal windows installation will wear out the flash disk in no time. You'll need XP Embedded to make sure it does not write registry, log ans swapfiles files to the flashdisk "millisecond". Why have a spinning hard drive when it can be avoided for much of the time? When dockside and doing my heavy duty work and surfing I have no problem spinning up a hard drive. A good solution is to mount a 2.5" laptop drive in a shock-absorbing frame into a 3.5" drive bay. Indrustial computer suppliers carry these. Very robust. Meindert |
johnhh wrote:
I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most laptops. Let me give some observations. 0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative of energy as well. 1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it. Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced. 2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the back would be oh so much nicer. 3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17" UXGA monitor except on laptops. 4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as well as the component system. 5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it. I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing. You can overcome some of these problems by using a port replicator with the laptop, but likewise, I think this is all getting too much for we sailors, the amount of time I have on passage with only two up is about 5% for navigation, so why go to all this hassle and expense? On a coastal passage, I can SEE most of my "waypoints" in real time and in 3D, not on a PC screen! |
On 2005-08-20 19:59:49 +1000, "Dennis Pogson"
said: johnhh wrote: I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most laptops. Let me give some observations. 0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative of energy as well. 1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it. Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced. 2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the back would be oh so much nicer. 3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17" UXGA monitor except on laptops. 4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as well as the component system. 5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it. I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing. You can overcome some of these problems by using a port replicator with the laptop, but likewise, I think this is all getting too much for we sailors, the amount of time I have on passage with only two up is about 5% for navigation, so why go to all this hassle and expense? On a coastal passage, I can SEE most of my "waypoints" in real time and in 3D, not on a PC screen! Once again the voice of reason strikes a resounding note. Passage planning, ok the computer is great for that. Loading waypoints into a GPS ok too. But while single handing I'm much too busy to spend time looking at a PC screen. Even a chart plotter is not really that much use. So I'll stick with the paper on board and my MKII eyball for the moment. -- Regards, John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789 S/V Chagall |
Well, at least I know there is interest out there (and of course, there
are those who aren't interested, thanks for your input too). Thanks for the great info, everone! Just some things that I've learned and I'll share. - Johnhh, the VIA is a little slower, definitely, but I've found it to be more than sufficient for most everyday tasks, and it exceeds most hardware requirements for navigation programs (everything I've seen except for Nobeltec's Admiral "recommended" hardware, it blows away the minimum requirements). Even Pentium M's can't meet Admiral's recommended hardware. I've looked at Pentium M, but I think the cost isn't worth it. It would jack up the price by a couple hundred and the performance gain isn't really worth it. Of course, people know "Pentium" though. - I looked at Shuttle, but they seem to have focused on Pentium 4 processors. The problem is power consumption there. The P4 chip itself can draw 70-90 Watts, my whole system draws ~25W at idle, ~50 at peak performance. VIA runs cooler and much more efficient. - Embedded OS is a great idea. I don't know much about Win XP Embedded, but I'll definitely be looking at that. I know there are devices that allow you to boot a PC from CF card, just like any IDE drive, I just thought they were too small for Win XP (the largest I've seen is 2 GB). Maybe Embedded gets around that. - Currently, I'm using a 2.5" disk in a shock-resistant mounting bracket (exactly like you said, Meindert). It's worked well so far. Power consumption is minimal, and I think negligible if we're talking about P4 chips. I did an experiment recently, where I installed 2 2.5" drives, ran a stress test and measured power consumption, then I removed one drive and ran the same test. I couldn't see a noticeable difference (on an analog ammeter, maybe I'd have seen a difference on digital, regarless, it was minimal if anything). The manufacturer says it consumes .6 W at idle (no measurement at peak), so spinning drives that aren't being accessed really isn't as big a problem as one might think, at least not with this drive. One recent customer had 2 drives, one for everyday access, the other for backup. This kept power consumption to a minimum. Eric |
Look at : http://www.logicsupply.com/
I have gotten the Venus 668 case with a VIA CL-10000 and also a VIA SP-13000. I put in a 12v dc -dc converter from Ituner and have been using it on my boat for 1 1/2 yrs.. Hanz wrote: Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive ruggedized version. I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it market research. I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what features are you looking for? Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards, and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may be useful on your boat? Thanks in advance for any ideas! |
- I looked at Shuttle, but they seem to have focused on Pentium 4
processors. The problem is power consumption there. Not completely true. I have a shuttle with an Athelon processor. Bought the Shuttle and processor from New Egg. Uses the heat pipe cooling system and runs at around 2GHz. Fine machine and quite! HTH Vic -- __________________________________________________ ______ Victor Fraenckel - The Windman victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom KC2GUI Home of the WindReader Electronic Theodolite Read the WIND |
I guess it comes down to what is sufficient. I built a VIA M10000 system
for this purpose and am not happy with it. You are going to be very hard put to compete with one of these 10" Pentium M based laptops that with the monitor are as small if not smaller than my ITX system, quieter and as energy efficient. Put it into a port replicate (or not into one) under the chart table or in a cabinet and you have the same thing only faster and you can pull it out and take it to the internet cafe. For now, I am using my monster laptop with the WUXGA display. I don't intend on using a PC for navigation or anything critical because I don't trust them enough. I use them for route planning and all that fun stuff. And least you think I am a technophobe, I'm not, I am a recently retired software engineer. That said, I am a PC junky and can't resist toying with all this stuff. Even not using it for critical functions, I feel the need for at least two PCs on board if not three. I might start quivering and shaking if the only one I had died. By the way, did anyone mention printing? I am using one of those Canon portables, can't remeber the number right off, but so far it has been awsome. Battery powered and with bluetooth it lives in a cabinet and when I need to use it, just pull it out, pop it open, turn it on, put it on the table with some paper and I'm printing. Thirty seconds from waterproof bag to printing. I wish you luck on this poroject. I may be a customer some day. John wrote in message oups.com... Well, at least I know there is interest out there (and of course, there are those who aren't interested, thanks for your input too). Thanks for the great info, everone! Just some things that I've learned and I'll share. - Johnhh, the VIA is a little slower, definitely, but I've found it to be more than sufficient for most everyday tasks, and it exceeds most hardware requirements for navigation programs (everything I've seen except for Nobeltec's Admiral "recommended" hardware, it blows away the minimum requirements). Even Pentium M's can't meet Admiral's recommended hardware. I've looked at Pentium M, but I think the cost isn't worth it. It would jack up the price by a couple hundred and the performance gain isn't really worth it. Of course, people know "Pentium" though. - I looked at Shuttle, but they seem to have focused on Pentium 4 processors. The problem is power consumption there. The P4 chip itself can draw 70-90 Watts, my whole system draws ~25W at idle, ~50 at peak performance. VIA runs cooler and much more efficient. - Embedded OS is a great idea. I don't know much about Win XP Embedded, but I'll definitely be looking at that. I know there are devices that allow you to boot a PC from CF card, just like any IDE drive, I just thought they were too small for Win XP (the largest I've seen is 2 GB). Maybe Embedded gets around that. - Currently, I'm using a 2.5" disk in a shock-resistant mounting bracket (exactly like you said, Meindert). It's worked well so far. Power consumption is minimal, and I think negligible if we're talking about P4 chips. I did an experiment recently, where I installed 2 2.5" drives, ran a stress test and measured power consumption, then I removed one drive and ran the same test. I couldn't see a noticeable difference (on an analog ammeter, maybe I'd have seen a difference on digital, regarless, it was minimal if anything). The manufacturer says it consumes .6 W at idle (no measurement at peak), so spinning drives that aren't being accessed really isn't as big a problem as one might think, at least not with this drive. One recent customer had 2 drives, one for everyday access, the other for backup. This kept power consumption to a minimum. Eric |
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I have been toying with the same as a hobby project.
The wishlist in short: - Low power - Suitable for marine use. Well engineered and splash proof. - No moving parts, possibly except HDD. Certainly no fans. - Low power - Open source software. We do not want the machine to die 10 days from port due to some MS virus or other hazzle. - Server facilities as on-board e-mail server, DHCP, DNS, printer, file, X etc for connected crew lap tops and others. - Lots of I/O - Low power - Supporting logging, navigation, automation etc on board - Providing entertainement, DVD, MP3, e-books etc - Low power - Automatic e-mail forwarding and fetching via SSB, GPRS, Satellite, WLAN or whatever is available, cheep and chereful at the time - Low power and finally - Low power One could also think of having a second low power battery operated wireless thin client in cockpit while sailing near land for navigation, radar image or similar. ottar |
A normal windows installation will
wear out the flash disk in no time. You have me puzzled here. How does it "wear out" solid state? You'll need XP Embedded to make sure it does not write registry, log and swapfiles files to the flashdisk "millisecond". What is wrong with writing data to a flash drive? I use them to move data between computers anyway. They can hold with power off and unplugged. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying? |
wrote in message
... A normal windows installation will wear out the flash disk in no time. You have me puzzled here. How does it "wear out" solid state? Because a solid-state flash disk has a limited number of write/erase cycles per sector of 100,000 to 1,000,000 times. So having windows put a swapfile on that, or any other temporary file will make the flash disk reach that number in no time. You'll need XP Embedded to make sure it does not write registry, log and swapfiles files to the flashdisk "millisecond". What is wrong with writing data to a flash drive? I use them to move data between computers anyway. They can hold with power off and unplugged. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying? Yes. Writing data to flash is ok. But having an OS putting temporary files on a flash disk that are write thousands of times during one session is bad. Meindert |
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I am using one of those Canon
portables, can't remeber the number right off, I am interested when you can take a look. |
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