Touchscreens again
 

Thanks for the various inputs on Touchscreens.
Sorry to post again, but the original subject is rather old now, originally
posted on 8 July.
I have been in contact with various UK suppliers, and they all seem to think
there is no problem with the transflective side.
Then comes the next argument. One supplier says they only way to go is an
Infra Red touch screen sensing arrangement, another supplier says Infra Red
is unreliable, you must have a resistive screen. The original supplier
supplied a capacitive screen which worked well on the odd occasions when it
was bright enough to see.
Another problem is the bezel round the screens which are quoted as
aluminium. I haven't yet managed to find out if it is anodised.
Before lashing out £800 to £900 I would welcome any further comments.

"Phil Stanton" wrote in
:

Thanks for the various inputs on Touchscreens.
Sorry to post again, but the original subject

Phil, before you shell out 900 of Her Majesty's finest for a touch screen,
let's give it a little sea trial!

Go down to the sea and scoop out a little jar of the North Sea and take it
with you to the touch screen store. Dip you finger into the jar,
simulating actually being at sea covered in spray where you'll want to use
this animal, then touch that finger to the touch screens in question, WET.
Let's see if any of them will work WET with a little North Sea brine on
them.

I bet NOT! Any dot of conductive, corrosive seawater left on the touch
screen is going to either short it out, permanently, or at least make it
think your finger is touching the screen at this point...er, ah, those
points (sea water sprays!). I don't think it'll know your finger in a maze
of dried-on sea spray or wet salt water dots.

Give 'er a SEA TRIAL first....saves all that arguing and litigating later
trying to get your 900 pounds Sterling back. Hmm..Gotta go look up how to
make the Sterling sign on the Alt-number pad again...(c;

--
Larry

If you touch it and hear a frying noise....casually take your jar and LEAVE
QUIETLY!....(c;

Can't speak to the transflective part but I have tried all three
technologies,IR,capacitive and resistive on my CNC router. I can pretty
well confirm that none have a place in an open cockpit. If a drop of water
hits an IR screen it will pop up a menu and ignore your finger. Same thing
for a capacitive except that a thin coat of dust will confuse it too. The
resistive is better than the others but will pop up a menu if you cough at
it so no telling what it will do in a 20 knot wind.

I am putting the resistive screen in the nav station and a straight
transflective on the binnacle with a waterproof industrial track ball
mounted below it. Even then the touch screen will have a track ball too.
Touch screens are great for Kiosks and programs that have big buttons but
suck when you need accuracy. I have been playing with a couple of chart
programs using the touch screen. It is impossible to put a waypoint exactly
where you want it. You just can't get the position accuracy with your
finger that you can with a traditional mouse or track ball.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Phil Stanton" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the various inputs on Touchscreens.
Sorry to post again, but the original subject is rather old now,
originally posted on 8 July.
I have been in contact with various UK suppliers, and they all seem to
think there is no problem with the transflective side.
Then comes the next argument. One supplier says they only way to go is an
Infra Red touch screen sensing arrangement, another supplier says Infra
Red is unreliable, you must have a resistive screen. The original supplier
supplied a capacitive screen which worked well on the odd occasions when
it was bright enough to see.
Another problem is the bezel round the screens which are quoted as
aluminium. I haven't yet managed to find out if it is anodised.
Before lashing out £800 to £900 I would welcome any further comments.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:54:09 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Glen

Just a note I, and am sure many others, enjoy your calm and thoughtful
responses to postings.....others could learn from that....

Just thought you like to know....

Can't speak to the transflective part but I have tried all three
technologies,IR,capacitive and resistive on my CNC router. I can pretty
well confirm that none have a place in an open cockpit. If a drop of water
hits an IR screen it will pop up a menu and ignore your finger. Same thing
for a capacitive except that a thin coat of dust will confuse it too. The
resistive is better than the others but will pop up a menu if you cough at
it so no telling what it will do in a 20 knot wind.

I am putting the resistive screen in the nav station and a straight
transflective on the binnacle with a waterproof industrial track ball
mounted below it. Even then the touch screen will have a track ball too.
Touch screens are great for Kiosks and programs that have big buttons but
suck when you need accuracy. I have been playing with a couple of chart
programs using the touch screen. It is impossible to put a waypoint exactly
where you want it. You just can't get the position accuracy with your
finger that you can with a traditional mouse or track ball.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Phil Stanton" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the various inputs on Touchscreens.
Sorry to post again, but the original subject is rather old now,
originally posted on 8 July.
I have been in contact with various UK suppliers, and they all seem to
think there is no problem with the transflective side.
Then comes the next argument. One supplier says they only way to go is an
Infra Red touch screen sensing arrangement, another supplier says Infra
Red is unreliable, you must have a resistive screen. The original supplier
supplied a capacitive screen which worked well on the odd occasions when
it was bright enough to see.
Another problem is the bezel round the screens which are quoted as
aluminium. I haven't yet managed to find out if it is anodised.
Before lashing out £800 to £900 I would welcome any further comments.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Phil Stanton" wrote in
:

Thanks for the various inputs on Touchscreens.
Sorry to post again, but the original subject

Phil, before you shell out 900 of Her Majesty's finest for a touch screen,
let's give it a little sea trial!

Go down to the sea and scoop out a little jar of the North Sea and take it
with you to the touch screen store. Dip you finger into the jar,
simulating actually being at sea covered in spray where you'll want to use
this animal, then touch that finger to the touch screens in question, WET.
Let's see if any of them will work WET with a little North Sea brine on
them.

I bet NOT! Any dot of conductive, corrosive seawater left on the touch
screen is going to either short it out, permanently, or at least make it
think your finger is touching the screen at this point...er, ah, those
points (sea water sprays!). I don't think it'll know your finger in a
maze
of dried-on sea spray or wet salt water dots.

Well Larry, if you could take the trouble of looking at the site of the
Bharlin Blue,
http://www.bharlinblue.com/
You'll see 4 touchscreens installed in the cockpit, directly in front of
both helm stations. They work perfectly at sea.

Meindert

Interesting, Meindert, Can't find any information on what sort of screens
they are. Do you have any idea

Phil


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Phil Stanton" wrote in
:

Thanks for the various inputs on Touchscreens.
Sorry to post again, but the original subject

Phil, before you shell out 900 of Her Majesty's finest for a touch
screen,
let's give it a little sea trial!

Go down to the sea and scoop out a little jar of the North Sea and take
it
with you to the touch screen store. Dip you finger into the jar,
simulating actually being at sea covered in spray where you'll want to
use
this animal, then touch that finger to the touch screens in question,
WET.
Let's see if any of them will work WET with a little North Sea brine on
them.

I bet NOT! Any dot of conductive, corrosive seawater left on the touch
screen is going to either short it out, permanently, or at least make it
think your finger is touching the screen at this point...er, ah, those
points (sea water sprays!). I don't think it'll know your finger in a
maze
of dried-on sea spray or wet salt water dots.

Well Larry, if you could take the trouble of looking at the site of the
Bharlin Blue,
http://www.bharlinblue.com/
You'll see 4 touchscreens installed in the cockpit, directly in front of
both helm stations. They work perfectly at sea.

Meindert

"Phil Stanton" wrote in message
...
Interesting, Meindert, Can't find any information on what sort of screens
they are. Do you have any idea

I do, I made the software that connects them through a large KVM switch to
several computers :-)
These are from Xenex (www.xenex.com) and are called Xenex Navigence XD
Series High-Bright Marine Displays.

Meindert

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:RaYCe.172558$sy6.31115@lakeread04:

Can't speak to the transflective part but I have tried all three
technologies,IR,capacitive and resistive on my CNC router. I can
pretty well confirm that none have a place in an open cockpit. If a
drop of water hits an IR screen it will pop up a menu and ignore your
finger. Same thing for a capacitive except that a thin coat of dust
will confuse it too. The resistive is better than the others but will
pop up a menu if you cough at it so no telling what it will do in a 20
knot wind.


YO! MEINDERT! YOU READIN' DIS BO?!!

--
Larry

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:RaYCe.172558$sy6.31115@lakeread04:

Can't speak to the transflective part but I have tried all three
technologies,IR,capacitive and resistive on my CNC router. I can
pretty well confirm that none have a place in an open cockpit. If a
drop of water hits an IR screen it will pop up a menu and ignore your
finger. Same thing for a capacitive except that a thin coat of dust
will confuse it too. The resistive is better than the others but will
pop up a menu if you cough at it so no telling what it will do in a 20
knot wind.


YO! MEINDERT! YOU READIN' DIS BO?!!

Yes, and I certainly haven't experienced what Glenn is describing with the
screens I've worked with. they were resistive and you have to apply more
pressure than a 20 knot wind does......
But I'll ask the yard who built and maintains this yacht tomorrow, to see if
they have any complaints from the owner.

Meindert

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:

Yes, and I certainly haven't experienced what Glenn is describing with
the screens I've worked with. they were resistive and you have to
apply more pressure than a 20 knot wind does......
But I'll ask the yard who built and maintains this yacht tomorrow, to
see if they have any complaints from the owner.

Meindert



Pressure sensitive? Like the old screens with the film on them? That
might work....well, at least until something bumps it making a dimple,
which is what did in the old screens.

--
Larry

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Larry" wrote

YO! MEINDERT! YOU READIN' DIS BO?!!

Yes, and I certainly haven't experienced what Glenn is describing with the
screens I've worked with. they were resistive and you have to apply more
pressure than a 20 knot wind does......
But I'll ask the yard who built and maintains this yacht tomorrow, to see
if
they have any complaints from the owner.

I suppose they can be made with different sensitivities but my resistive
display a water resistant ELO. Besides their own displays ELO supplies
touch screen overlays and modules for a lot of display makers. It doesn't
seem to be effected by water drops the way the capacitive one is but if I am
within 18" of it and sneeze it is the same as randomly hitting the left
mouse button. A steady overall even wind pressure may not do it.

My main objection is selection accuracy. If the software is built with
touch screen in mind so the select areas are big enough it would be OK but
it is very hard to hit the right normal sized drop down or radio button with
a finger. Setting a waypoint accurately without over zooming is darned near
impossible. I couldn't imagine picking a menu item on Visual Suite or
MaxSea in any kind of a swell.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Pressure sensitive? Like the old screens with the film on them? That
might work....well, at least until something bumps it making a dimple,
which is what did in the old screens.

These have surface hardness 4H (ASTM-D-3363-92A standard). I 'm not up to
speed with this standard, but I see it mentioned a lot in screen specs for
touch environments. And from the touch of it, these screens are not equipped
with a soft film. No dimples unless you throw solid items at them, I
suppose.

Meindert

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:E9eDe.172616$sy6.33959@lakeread04...
I suppose they can be made with different sensitivities but my resistive
display a water resistant ELO. Besides their own displays ELO supplies
touch screen overlays and modules for a lot of display makers. It doesn't
seem to be effected by water drops the way the capacitive one is but if I
am
within 18" of it and sneeze it is the same as randomly hitting the left
mouse button. A steady overall even wind pressure may not do it.

These screens were certainly not that sensitive, as I remember.

My main objection is selection accuracy. If the software is built with
touch screen in mind so the select areas are big enough it would be OK but
it is very hard to hit the right normal sized drop down or radio button
with
a finger. Setting a waypoint accurately without over zooming is darned
near
impossible. I couldn't imagine picking a menu item on Visual Suite or
MaxSea in any kind of a swell.

That I agree with you. I've been sitting behind 5 of those screens on the
bridge of a 98 footer for 4 weeks (in an expensive Recaro chair, very nice
development environment :-) ), programming in Kylix on Linux. It was indeed
tricky to hit a menu on the spot. But the main functions of these screens
were to display (engine-) control systems with large buttons. Indeed
developed with the touchscreens in mind. Operation Nobeltec was next to
impossible.

Meindert

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:E9eDe.172616$sy6.33959@lakeread04:

within 18" of it and sneeze it is the same as randomly hitting the left
mouse button

Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon from Scott Adams. Wally passes Dilbert's
cubicle and hears Dilbert say to his computer, "Left two columns. Add new
column. Run spreadsheet."

"Ah, I see you have a new voice-controlled computer. It's much faster than
my old machine in MY cubicle. I bet it can even _DELETE_A_FILE!_" (ding-
beep-click-spoit).

Dilbert's hair is standing on end and he looks like you just shot his
mom... Wally rolls around laughing holding his stomach.

One of the funniest ones...(c;

--
Larry

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:

programming in Kylix on Linux

Sorta like Dbase II in DOS....hee hee.

You got it programming in C++ or Delphi, Meindert?

--
Larry

Real programmers use:
COPY CON PROGRAM.EXE

Actually the one I returned as not bright enough was OK as far as accuracy
goes. I am using Chartwork's NautiQ software that has quite large buttons.
Tended to use a cocktail stick (used to stir Gin & Tonic) so put any
inaccuracies down to the gin rather than the screen. It at least saved
getting wet or greasy marks all over the screen.

Phil

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:E9eDe.172616$sy6.33959@lakeread04:

within 18" of it and sneeze it is the same as randomly hitting the left
mouse button

Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon from Scott Adams. Wally passes Dilbert's
cubicle and hears Dilbert say to his computer, "Left two columns. Add new
column. Run spreadsheet."

"Ah, I see you have a new voice-controlled computer. It's much faster
than
my old machine in MY cubicle. I bet it can even _DELETE_A_FILE!_" (ding-
beep-click-spoit).

Dilbert's hair is standing on end and he looks like you just shot his
mom... Wally rolls around laughing holding his stomach.

One of the funniest ones...(c;

--
Larry

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:

programming in Kylix on Linux

Sorta like Dbase II in DOS....hee hee.

Very odd comparison, I must say :-)
"My" linux box on that boat was about the only one that didn't crash
occasionally.....

You got it programming in C++ or Delphi, Meindert?

No, in Kylix. That is the Linux version of Delphi.

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote:
My main objection is selection accuracy. If the software is built with
touch screen in mind so the select areas are big enough it would be OK but
it is very hard to hit the right normal sized drop down or radio button
with a finger. Setting a waypoint accurately without over zooming is darned
near impossible. I couldn't imagine picking a menu item on Visual Suite or
MaxSea in any kind of a swell.

[snip]

Indeed
developed with the touchscreens in mind. Operation Nobeltec was next to
impossible.

Which is why Nobeltec suggests you use Admiral with a touchscreen; the
bigger sister (brother?) to VNS which has a special touchscreen mode
(called Navview).

Btw, what also works is using your fingernail, and using a smaller
screen which allows you to stabilize position by keeping one or two
fingers steadied on the side of the screen. Hey, you might even "shape"
a fingernail in a more pointy fashion grin/.

I found that using it this way I could also use the normal mode of
operation in Admiral (called Planview) quite succesfully...

As my sailing boat is quite a lot smaller than 98' :-) I use a portable
touchscreen made by Panasonic. Touchscreen-wise this is excellent; we
were doused with north sea water this year but no issues with the
screen. Viewability in direct sunlight is so so, but as it's portable
you can move it around until you get a good view (some angles are quite
good in sunlight, others are a total washout).

On our summer trip this year it was really good to be able to sit in the
cockpit and navigate waters that were new to us. Especially the south
coast of Norway which is quite frightening when you're new to it (lots
of rocks instead of the sand and mud that my crew and myself are used to).

--
Kees

"Kees Verruijt" wrote in message
...
Which is why Nobeltec suggests you use Admiral with a touchscreen; the
bigger sister (brother?) to VNS which has a special touchscreen mode
(called Navview).

Didn't work. Unlike I stated earlier, these touchscreens are capacitive.

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:
"Kees Verruijt" wrote in message
...

Which is why Nobeltec suggests you use Admiral with a touchscreen; the
bigger sister (brother?) to VNS which has a special touchscreen mode
(called Navview).


Didn't work. Unlike I stated earlier, these touchscreens are capacitive.

Meindert



Hi Meindert,

I don't understand what you're saying. Admiral is computer software, how
does this relate to your remark that touchscreens are capacitive?

Kees

"Kees Verruijt" wrote in message
...
I don't understand what you're saying. Admiral is computer software, how
does this relate to your remark that touchscreens are capacitive?

Sorry, I quoted the wrong text. I meant to comment on your idea of operating
the touchscreen with your fingernail. This does not work on a capacitive
screen, since you have to touch it with something conductive.

Meindert

Phil Stanton wrote:

Actually the one I returned as not bright enough was OK as far as accuracy
goes. I am using Chartwork's NautiQ software that has quite large buttons.
Tended to use a cocktail stick (used to stir Gin & Tonic) so put any
inaccuracies down to the gin rather than the screen. It at least saved
getting wet or greasy marks all over the screen.

http://www.arkon.com/stylus.html

Here is a place that offers a "Glow-in-the-Dark Patented Finger Stylus"
and also pen cap stylii. I'm using a iPAQ PDA in a tank top map case on
my motorcycle and have a combination ballpoint pen/PDA stylus in the
case (on a short string) for taking notes and working the nav software.

Sort of off this topic but related, I still can't figure out why the
"320x480 Transflective TFT color display" on my Palm Tungsten T3 is
almost unreadable in daylight and completely unusable with direct
sunlight. It has an adjustable backlight, turning that full up does not
change anything, and there do not appear to be any sensors that reduce
the backlight as ambient lighting increases.

I thought a transflective display with backlight was the "hot ticket"
for outdoor use realizing that brightness varies from model to model.
The T3 still has a brilliant, sharp, display in dimmer lighting. My
iPAQ 3765 is not as good in doors but remains readable in direct
sunlight when set to Bright or Superbright.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Phil Stanton" wrote in
:

greasy marks all over the screen

There's another touchscreen problem. Everyone's hands are all covered in
seawater residue, booze and grease from a lot of sources aboard the boat.
There's a sign I made with the label maker on the Raymarine display and
computer...."This is NOT a touchscreen."....trying to keep them from using
their greasy finger to point out something. It still gets hard to read
after a day offshore....(sigh)

I can imagine how it would look at the end of a day with the duty watch
having to push the image buttons with his greasy fingers.

--
Larry

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:

No, in Kylix. That is the Linux version of Delphi.



Their webpage says it will also compile C++ is why I asked.

--
Larry

" There's another touchscreen problem. Everyone's hands are all covered in
seawater residue, booze and grease from a lot of sources aboard the boat.
There's a sign I made with the label maker on the Raymarine display and
computer...."This is NOT a touchscreen."....trying to keep them from using
their greasy finger to point out something. It still gets hard to read
after a day offshore....(sigh)

I can imagine how it would look at the end of a day with the duty watch
having to push the image buttons with his greasy fingers.

Actually they clean up pretty well. At least the shop ELO does. Doing
double duty controlling the router table and the mill it gets grease and
cutting oil finger prints regularly. A little Windex on a dedicated shammy
cleans it right up. You do have to be careful about epoxy and PU glue
though. :-0 I have caught myself a couple of times about to hit the tool
change button with sticky fingers. I have had to adopt a policy of never
doing any glue ups while waiting for the router to do its thing.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:XAsDe.172641$sy6.152486@lakeread04:

Actually they clean up pretty well. At least the shop ELO does.
Doing double duty controlling the router table and the mill it gets
grease and cutting oil finger prints regularly. A little Windex on a
dedicated shammy cleans it right up. You do have to be careful about
epoxy and PU glue though. :-0 I have caught myself a couple of times
about to hit the tool change button with sticky fingers. I have had
to adopt a policy of never doing any glue ups while waiting for the
router to do its thing.


In an environment like yours, Glenn, I'd wrap the front of the monitor in
Saran Wrap, making cleanup a simple matter of replacing the Saran Wrap. It
would also protect the screen surface from the grindings that get in any
machinist's fingers, griding on the Saran Wrap, not the fragile screen.

Restaurants around here all use their commercial plastic film over monitors
and cash register keys to protect them and reduce downtime....try it.

--
Larry

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
:

No, in Kylix. That is the Linux version of Delphi.



Their webpage says it will also compile C++ is why I asked.

Now I remember. Kylix does indeed compile C++ too.

Meindert

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:E9eDe.172616$sy6.33959@lakeread04...
I suppose they can be made with different sensitivities but my resistive
display a water resistant ELO. Besides their own displays ELO supplies
touch screen overlays and modules for a lot of display makers. It
doesn't
seem to be effected by water drops the way the capacitive one is but if
I
am
within 18" of it and sneeze it is the same as randomly hitting the left
mouse button. A steady overall even wind pressure may not do it.

These screens were certainly not that sensitive, as I remember.

I checked with the yard that built the Bharlin Blue. These touchscreens are
indeed capacitive and very robust. They have never had any experience nor
complaints about odd behaviour when wet or accidental "touches" due to drops
or splashes of water. I remember that I could configure them for the amount
of "touch" needed. The used algorithm seems to be very capable of
distinguishing between a single point of touch and a large area caused by a
splash or, for that matter, two fingers or an entire hand.

Meindert

Kees Verruijt wrote:
Meindert Sprang wrote:

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote:
MaxSea in any kind of a swell.
[snip]

(snip)
As my sailing boat is quite a lot smaller than 98' :-) I use a portable
touchscreen made by Panasonic. Touchscreen-wise this is excellent; we
were doused with north sea water this year but no issues with the
screen. Viewability in direct sunlight is so so, but as it's portable
you can move it around until you get a good view (some angles are quite
good in sunlight, others are a total washout).

--
Kees

Could you post the exact model number of that Panasonic screen?

Danny wrote:

Could you post the exact model number of that Panasonic screen?

Sure,

It's the Panasonic CF-VDW07. They call it the MDWD (Mobile Data Wireless
Display). See
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...Toughbook-MDWD

I got mine as it is resold by Nobeltec. They call it the Wireless
Nobeltec Display, affectionately known as WiNDy... See
http://www.nobeltec.com/products/prod_tb_wnd.asp

Regards,
Kees