On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery

Utter ********.


Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN

Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.

I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.

Tell us again how that works.

Regards
Gary

Ok I've risen to the provocation.

You guys have given Neal the validation he seeks by arguing with him and
you've turned a perfectly innocent query into a battleground. As a result he
has managed a troll into uk.rec.sailing which uptill now commonsence has
denied him.

To answer the original query - and all the attempts to explain electrical
theory

Let's make this simple, a battery resists the flow of electricity through
it. Most things resist the flow of electricity, this resistance is
demonstrated by dissipating some of the energy as light (the light bulb), or
heat (the radiant heater) or work (the electric motor). In humans this
resistance is demonstrated by burning (the electric chair). In a battery
this resistance is demonstrated by a chemical reaction that builds up a
charge on one side of the cell, when the capacity of the battery to sustain
that chemical reaction is satiated then the battery dissipates the energy in
heat. In a circuit the battery absorbs energy and shows a high resistance.
What is more a battery isn't really that efficient a lot of the work put in
is wasted as a by-product of the chemical reaction (heat, hydrogen given off
etc)

Resistance is often regarded as as wrong thing, because of the english
connation of the word resistence as somehow negative, it isn't it merely
means the more resistance the more work that has been achieved.

At the start of battery technology you had the basic lead acid cell powering
your radio, and once a week little johnny would go to the chemist who would
top up the acid and recharge the battery cell. At this stage the cell was a
simple device that held a few volts charge, and anyway we could see it
bubbling nicely so it must be magic.

Then along can applications that needed more of the magical oomph (had a
greater resistance) so some clever people put a whole sucession of these
strange devices together. In each one they connected the positive (oomph
end) with the -ve (oomphless end). They put Exide on the outside and retired
rich because they had created the modern battery. One can assume mistresses
and debauchery at this point.
The positive result is that if you put 2 oomphs together (one after the
other) you got 2 oomphs (bit like doubling up the number of horses) (but if
you put the oomphs side by side you only got one oomph for twice as long -
analogy is a bugger).

The battery isn't a magical concept, the word walmart on the outside hasn't
somehow made it sacred, it's a number of little cells connected together,
each one reacting to what's passed through it. Each little cell contributing
ther own bit bof oomph to the party.

Now say you've 24 oomphs harnessed together (a 24 Volt circuit) and you only
need 12 oomphs to move your wagon train. Well you can split the two in half
and take the 12 oomphs away, but they will become tired compared to the 12
oomphs you've left unharnessed.

If the world was fair the 12 unused oomphs would share energy with 12 used
oomphs, but they can't (at least for more than a moment) because to put the
energy back into the 12 used oomphs they'd need both the energy to drive the
chemical reation (+heat, hydtogen etc) plus the energy to provide the
replacement oomphs. They haven't got that extra energy so they see the 12
depleted oomphs as a wall they can't climb.

Then along you come with the charger (and the charger wont take no for an
answer it's got an 'effing great diesel engine diesel engine behind it) ,
because all these little cells are in sucession, you are pushing the same
amount of charge through each. The 12 depleted cells take the charge (+waste
a lot of it on heat and hydrogen), the 12 full cells waste all of the
charge (heat,hydrogen) because they can't store anymore oomph. Because the
world is unfair the charger has put a lot more oomph into the circuit (to
provide the energy for the heat, the hydrogen given off, the basic chemical
reaction, plus the energy for the charge that is stored) than you ever get
out of the battery.

A battery only has so much electrolyte (the thing that is reacted upon to
provide the oomph), if that electrolyte is wasted in generating hydogen and
heat then it ain't being used to provide electricity (oomph). So the battery
effectively dies sooner.

In an ideal world where a battery was 100% efficient then it wouldn't matter
if you were taking off 12 volts from a 24 volt cell. But in the real world
that does matter ('cos in that ideal where there was no resistance a battery
couldn't exist, try imagining a battery at absolete zero - where there is no
resistance to drive the reaction to store energy).

Batteries are a bit like Tax, you put in lots more than you get back.

OK

So to answer the original question
- yes your radio will work fine
- no because the battery is inefficient the charge will not fully equalise
- depending on how you charge your batteries, how often you use your 12 volt
circuit you might find yourself having to replace your batteries sooner
-In other words it ain't a proper job, it'll work, at sometime it'll give
someone a problem.

Lets now go back to ignoring Neal, like Alice he can live in his own fantasy
land where only the simplest rules of physics apply.

Capt. Neal® wrote:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from
releasing electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most
dumb engineers claim.

Oh? So how come the little arrow marked "I" (current) has changed
direction between the third and fourth pictures?

Pete

Great anology....i think 'oooph' should become a new lab
standard.
I think CN had one good point...engineers regard batteries as
a two-terminal device with a certain transfer function...chemists
working in the battery industry would see them totally differently.
Norm B

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:39:02 +0100, "Nick Temple-Fry" theP wrote:

Ok I've risen to the provocation.

You guys have given Neal the validation he seeks by arguing with him and
you've turned a perfectly innocent query into a battleground. As a result he
has managed a troll into uk.rec.sailing which uptill now commonsence has
denied him.

To answer the original query - and all the attempts to explain electrical
theory

Let's make this simple, a battery resists the flow of electricity through
it. Most things resist the flow of electricity, this resistance is
demonstrated by dissipating some of the energy as light (the light bulb), or
heat (the radiant heater) or work (the electric motor). In humans this
resistance is demonstrated by burning (the electric chair). In a battery
this resistance is demonstrated by a chemical reaction that builds up a
charge on one side of the cell, when the capacity of the battery to sustain
that chemical reaction is satiated then the battery dissipates the energy in
heat. In a circuit the battery absorbs energy and shows a high resistance.
What is more a battery isn't really that efficient a lot of the work put in
is wasted as a by-product of the chemical reaction (heat, hydrogen given off
etc)

Resistance is often regarded as as wrong thing, because of the english
connation of the word resistence as somehow negative, it isn't it merely
means the more resistance the more work that has been achieved.

At the start of battery technology you had the basic lead acid cell powering
your radio, and once a week little johnny would go to the chemist who would
top up the acid and recharge the battery cell. At this stage the cell was a
simple device that held a few volts charge, and anyway we could see it
bubbling nicely so it must be magic.

Then along can applications that needed more of the magical oomph (had a
greater resistance) so some clever people put a whole sucession of these
strange devices together. In each one they connected the positive (oomph
end) with the -ve (oomphless end). They put Exide on the outside and retired
rich because they had created the modern battery. One can assume mistresses
and debauchery at this point.
The positive result is that if you put 2 oomphs together (one after the
other) you got 2 oomphs (bit like doubling up the number of horses) (but if
you put the oomphs side by side you only got one oomph for twice as long -
analogy is a bugger).

The battery isn't a magical concept, the word walmart on the outside hasn't
somehow made it sacred, it's a number of little cells connected together,
each one reacting to what's passed through it. Each little cell contributing
ther own bit bof oomph to the party.

Now say you've 24 oomphs harnessed together (a 24 Volt circuit) and you only
need 12 oomphs to move your wagon train. Well you can split the two in half
and take the 12 oomphs away, but they will become tired compared to the 12
oomphs you've left unharnessed.

If the world was fair the 12 unused oomphs would share energy with 12 used
oomphs, but they can't (at least for more than a moment) because to put the
energy back into the 12 used oomphs they'd need both the energy to drive the
chemical reation (+heat, hydtogen etc) plus the energy to provide the
replacement oomphs. They haven't got that extra energy so they see the 12
depleted oomphs as a wall they can't climb.

Then along you come with the charger (and the charger wont take no for an
answer it's got an 'effing great diesel engine diesel engine behind it) ,
because all these little cells are in sucession, you are pushing the same
amount of charge through each. The 12 depleted cells take the charge (+waste
a lot of it on heat and hydrogen), the 12 full cells waste all of the
charge (heat,hydrogen) because they can't store anymore oomph. Because the
world is unfair the charger has put a lot more oomph into the circuit (to
provide the energy for the heat, the hydrogen given off, the basic chemical
reaction, plus the energy for the charge that is stored) than you ever get
out of the battery.

A battery only has so much electrolyte (the thing that is reacted upon to
provide the oomph), if that electrolyte is wasted in generating hydogen and
heat then it ain't being used to provide electricity (oomph). So the battery
effectively dies sooner.

In an ideal world where a battery was 100% efficient then it wouldn't matter
if you were taking off 12 volts from a 24 volt cell. But in the real world
that does matter ('cos in that ideal where there was no resistance a battery
couldn't exist, try imagining a battery at absolete zero - where there is no
resistance to drive the reaction to store energy).

Batteries are a bit like Tax, you put in lots more than you get back.

OK

So to answer the original question
- yes your radio will work fine
- no because the battery is inefficient the charge will not fully equalise
- depending on how you charge your batteries, how often you use your 12 volt
circuit you might find yourself having to replace your batteries sooner
-In other words it ain't a proper job, it'll work, at sometime it'll give
someone a problem.

Lets now go back to ignoring Neal, like Alice he can live in his own fantasy
land where only the simplest rules of physics apply.

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there
exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher
than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and
the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction
reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers
fall prey to it.

Say Capt'n, why don't you hook up an ampere meter in your circuit and tell
me what sign the reading has when charging and discharging. Or are going to
argue the principle of ammeters too?

Meindert

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

So even an engineer might understand. . .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Engineers look at a battery as a physical object while an electrician
looks
at it as a container for a chemical reactions that store and release
electricity.

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from
releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most
dumb
engineers claim.

Read the above link carefully and click on all the links and perhaps you
will understand the error of your thinking.

Well, I did. Lucky for me, I studied chemisty as well. And what do I see in
the second picture?
The decomposition of lead and sulphuric acid on the left produces, whait a
minute... electrons!! And wait, what do I see? On the right side, these
electrons are used to combine lead oxide and sulphuric acid into
leadsulphate and water. Sooooo, I see electrons flowing THROUGH the innards
of the battery.
Care to argue with that?

Meindert

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Again, electrons don't move THROUGH the battery.

Correct. Electrons DON'T move through the battery, but charge does.

They only reside
on physically separated plates via chemical reaction (not a circuit).

Incorrect. That's what happens in a capacitor, but not in a battery.

In a capacitor, electrons are stored on one plate and "holes" on the
other, and no electrons move THROUGH the capacitor. Nevertheless charge
APPEARS to move through it because it goes in via one wire and out via
the other, but really the charge is only stored on the plates and does
not travel across the gap. When you DIScharge a capacitor, the charge
comes back out again, but still no charge travels directly from one
plate to the other within the unit.

A battery is different. It also stores charge, but not by accumulating
more and more electrons on one plate and holes on the other, but rather
by arranging for chemical changes to occur not only on both plates, but
also in the electrolyte.

As shown in hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/leadacid.html
which you pointed us to, a charged battery starts off with the electrolyte
of sulphuric acid, i.e. a soup of negative sulphate ions and positive
hydrogen ions, and with PbO2 on one plate and Pb on the other. When
the plates are connected via an external circuit, the sulphate ions are
absorbed equally on each plate, in a reaction which at the Pb end
generates PbSO4 and liberates electrons and H+ ions, and at the PbO2 end
also generates PbSO4 and absorbs electrons and H+ ions. To sustain this
reaction, the electrons travel from one plate to the other on the outside
of the battery, via the circuit wire, while the H+ ions travel from one
plate to the other internally, through the electrolyte.

Therefore charge does travel through the battery. We have a complete
circuit, with external flow of electrons and internal flow of H+ ions.

During charging, the same thing happens, electrons are "pumped" back
into one plate and sucked out of the other, which causes the hydrogen
ions to travel through the electrolyte in the opposite direction to
that in which they travelled while the battery was being discharged.

Nick Temple-Fry wrote:

Resistance is often regarded as as wrong thing, because of the english
connation of the word resistence as somehow negative, it isn't it merely
means the more resistance the more work that has been achieved.

You seem to be confusing more with less. More resistance means less current
and less work. Less resistance means more current and more work.

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

The charge of a battery is the product of current x time.

Well, that's wrong for a start. Some of the current may have been used
to electrolyse water ...

Ian

In article ,
Capt. Neal® the biggest dfufus walking wrote:

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most dumb
engineers claim.

I suppose that you think that a charged battery has more electrons in it
than a discharged battery? Right? Is this what your saying above?
Please explain, so that we all can undestand what you exact preception
of this point is.



Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN

If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the
battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together.
It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE
electrons.


Ahhhh, I see you have answer the question that I asked you, in a
previous post.

So, it is your contention that the battery "STORES" up electrons
inside it when you charge it, and then releases these same electrons
when it dicharges and they go over to the Load and do work? Right?

Do you agree with this statement?
Inquiring minds would certainly like to know what your exact position is
on the above.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases
electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit
that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons)
can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of
some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is
not
a circuit.

CN


It is obvious from the above that CN, has absolutly no intelectual
knowledge of how wet cell batteries work, and the chemical reactions
that are involved, in both the charging and discharging of said wet cell
batteries.

He says that electrons are put into a wet cell battery during charging
and then they are released from said battery when discharging to preform
work at the load.

Now, we who have been wondering about his state of Education, surmise
that he never got out of Grammar School, and has a Grammer School
Inteligence view of the Laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Since this is now, obviously the case, it will serve all the rest of us
here to just let him go on thinking that his view is correct, for it
does work for him, and we can move on to weightier questions.

No amount of Posts are ever going to bring CN, into the real world,
because he doesn't have the education to understand the chemical
reactions, and Laws of Physics that apply to the subject at hand.

His simplistic view of the world, works for him, and he see's no reason
to educate himself otherwise. The rest of us know better, but there is
just "NO Hope of charging his brain with the required knowlege". To
high of "Internal Resistance".


Bruce in alaska who can understand "Me's" point
--
add a 2 before @

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the
battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together.
It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE
electrons.


Ahhhh, I see you have answer the question that I asked you, in a
previous post.

So, it is your contention that the battery "STORES" up electrons
inside it when you charge it, and then releases these same electrons
when it dicharges and they go over to the Load and do work? Right?

Do you agree with this statement?

Not what I said. I said a battery is a tank that uses chemical reactions
to store or release electrons. But my main point is there is no circuit and
no conductor (as a conductor in usually defined) inside a battery.

There are a series of plate, positive and negative. The fact that, if there
is no circuit connected externally to the poles of the battery, it stores
chemically the potential to provide electricity to the external circuit,
proves my contention that there is no internal circuit as the so-called
engineers are contending.

CN

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

I'm not trolling here. I'm attempting to educate some folks who need it.

CN

Ever heard of "blind leading the blind", Dufus? You couldn't educate
your way out of "Wet Paper Bag".....


Me

"Gary Schafer" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery

Utter ********.


Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN

Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.


Duh! The plates are hardwired together and connected to either the positive
or negative poles, but not to each other, as would be the case in the minds
of those claiming an internal circuit.


I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.

Duh, since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates but
not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa, to make a circuit as
some claim, and if one cell is discharged to say 1.5 volts while connected
to cells charged to 2.2 volts in a circuit with some sort of load between
the positive and negative battery terminals the discharged cell takes on
a charge just as if a battery charger were connected. The discharged
cell doesn't know anything other than the higher voltage is reversing it's
chemical reaction from a discharging reaction to a charging reaction.

If the battery was a conductor internally, tell me why as you charge
a discharged battery the amperage it takes gets less and less until it
tapers down to almost nothing. If the cells were connected by a circuit
inside the amperage would be constant.

CN

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Sorry, I'm an expert yacht electrician and I used to teach 12v electrical
circuits at one time. I know of which I speak.

CN

If this is an example of your Electrical Knowlege, then all your
students should ask for Refunds as well, because they got short-changed
in Basic Electrical Theory, and Battery Theory and Chemisty.
Jeeeze Louise, I can't even imagine an Institution that would allow
an instructor to spew such "Absolute Billge", knowingly. They did fire
you for incompetance? Tell us the truth.


Me

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there
exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher
than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and
the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction
reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers
fall prey to it.

Say Capt'n, why don't you hook up an ampere meter in your circuit and tell
me what sign the reading has when charging and discharging. Or are going to
argue the principle of ammeters too?


Like I said in another post elsewhere, I'm not arguing with ammeter readings.
I AM saying, since an ammeter is connected in series external to the battery,
it tells you nothing about there being a circuit inside the battery. It only tells
you whether electrons flow into or out of the battery. There does not have
to be an internal circuit for electrons to flow. Chemical reactions take the place
of a circuit. These self-limiting chemical reactions change the composition of the
positive and negative plates; they do not conduct electricity.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Gary Schafer" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of
a battery


Utter ********.



Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in
the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store
a charge.


CN


Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.



Duh! The plates are hardwired together and connected to either the positive
or negative poles, but not to each other, as would be the case in the minds
of those claiming an internal circuit.


I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.


Duh, since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates but
not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa, to make a circuit as
some claim, and if one cell is discharged to say 1.5 volts while connected
to cells charged to 2.2 volts in a circuit with some sort of load between
the positive and negative battery terminals the discharged cell takes on
a charge just as if a battery charger were connected. The discharged
cell doesn't know anything other than the higher voltage is reversing it's
chemical reaction from a discharging reaction to a charging reaction.

If the battery was a conductor internally, tell me why as you charge
a discharged battery the amperage it takes gets less and less until it
tapers down to almost nothing. If the cells were connected by a circuit
inside the amperage would be constant.

CN


If "since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates
but not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa" how does a
battery ever acheive 12 volts. That would put all the cells in parallel
and since a lead acid wet cell is 2.2 volts, on average, the battery
would only have 2.2 volts.
krj

"Me" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN

If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......

I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a circuit.

CN

"Pete Verdon" d wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse
the current as most dumb engineers claim.

Oh? So how come the little arrow marked "I" (current) has changed direction between the third and fourth pictures?


Duh! That is an EXTERNAL circuit. Note how there is never an arrow
shown inside the battery - only chemical reactions shown because
there is no internal circuit.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Me" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge
cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are
connected
in a circuit?

CN


If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......


I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in
series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on
the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them
with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the
electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven
the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a
circuit.

CN

But electrons don't flow through a battery! Your words.
krj

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

So even an engineer might understand. . .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Engineers look at a battery as a physical object while an electrician
looks
at it as a container for a chemical reactions that store and release
electricity.

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from
releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most
dumb
engineers claim.

Read the above link carefully and click on all the links and perhaps you
will understand the error of your thinking.

Well, I did. Lucky for me, I studied chemisty as well. And what do I see in
the second picture?
The decomposition of lead and sulphuric acid on the left produces, whait a
minute... electrons!! And wait, what do I see? On the right side, these
electrons are used to combine lead oxide and sulphuric acid into
leadsulphate and water. Sooooo, I see electrons flowing THROUGH the innards
of the battery.
Care to argue with that?

Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no flow.

CN

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® the biggest dfufus walking wrote:

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most dumb
engineers claim.

I suppose that you think that a charged battery has more electrons in it
than a discharged battery? Right? Is this what your saying above?
Please explain, so that we all can undestand what you exact preception
of this point is.


Negative sarge! A charged battery has used electrons provided for it in
the charging process to change the chemical composition of the plates
so these same plates can again change their composition through chemical
reactions during the discharge cycle to provide electrons. Electrons aren't
rally stored as they are in a capacitor. Potential to release electrons is
stored by chemical reactions that change the plate metal composition.

CN

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message . uk...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Again, electrons don't move THROUGH the battery.

Correct. Electrons DON'T move through the battery, but charge does.

They only reside
on physically separated plates via chemical reaction (not a circuit).

Incorrect. That's what happens in a capacitor, but not in a battery.

In a capacitor, electrons are stored on one plate and "holes" on the
other, and no electrons move THROUGH the capacitor. Nevertheless charge
APPEARS to move through it because it goes in via one wire and out via
the other, but really the charge is only stored on the plates and does
not travel across the gap. When you DIScharge a capacitor, the charge
comes back out again, but still no charge travels directly from one
plate to the other within the unit.

A battery is different. It also stores charge, but not by accumulating
more and more electrons on one plate and holes on the other, but rather
by arranging for chemical changes to occur not only on both plates, but
also in the electrolyte.

True.

As shown in hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/leadacid.html
which you pointed us to, a charged battery starts off with the electrolyte
of sulphuric acid, i.e. a soup of negative sulphate ions and positive
hydrogen ions, and with PbO2 on one plate and Pb on the other. When
the plates are connected via an external circuit, the sulphate ions are
absorbed equally on each plate, in a reaction which at the Pb end
generates PbSO4 and liberates electrons and H+ ions, and at the PbO2 end
also generates PbSO4 and absorbs electrons and H+ ions. To sustain this
reaction, the electrons travel from one plate to the other on the outside
of the battery, via the circuit wire, while the H+ ions travel from one
plate to the other internally, through the electrolyte.

Therefore charge does travel through the battery. We have a complete
circuit, with external flow of electrons and internal flow of H+ ions.

There's where I disagree. Charge does not 'travel through' the inside
of a battery. There is no conductor only chemical reactions that change
the composition of the plates. Depending on whether the battery is
being charged or discharged these reactions run one way or the other.

Note, I said the reactions run one way or the other. I did not say the
electricity flows one way or the other. There is a difference which
all you naysayers fail to comprehend. Chemical reactions change
the plate composition. Plate composition is responsible for the current
that is noted in the circuit *outside* the battery. There is no corresponding
circuit inside the battery. If there was the battery would immediately
short out internally.


During charging, the same thing happens, electrons are "pumped" back
into one plate and sucked out of the other, which causes the hydrogen
ions to travel through the electrolyte in the opposite direction to
that in which they travelled while the battery was being discharged.


Nothing in the way of current travels back and forth in the electrolyte.
The electrolyte is there only as a medium for chemical reaction not as
a highway or path for electrons to travel.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in
series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on
the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them
with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the

*******eletrons flowing through it******** in the circuit driven by the
good battery will have driven

From the mouths of babes...or, in this case, cretins. Thus does the
good Cap'n put paid to his own ludicrous 'theory'. Methinks the boy may
have seen the light :-) Oops, sorry, had an attack of blind screamin'
optimism there for a moment.

Keith

"Me" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

I'm not trolling here. I'm attempting to educate some folks who need it.

CN

Ever heard of "blind leading the blind", Dufus? You couldn't educate
your way out of "Wet Paper Bag".....


Maybe so but with such dense students is it any wonder?
Stephen Hawking couldn't make any headway with this sorry lot.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Care to argue with that?


Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

Duh, do a Google search on "Redox" reactions. Electron flow is exactly
what's happening.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal
composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release
electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the
electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the
positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no
flow.

Dude, you've been draggin' your appendage in the dirt so long on this
one, you could see the lines from Soyuz. Give it up. Cretin.

Hope this helps,

Keith

"krj" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Me" wrote in message ...

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN


If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......


I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a circuit.

CN

But electrons don't flow through a battery! Your words.

Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency. My bad.

Semantics again, but you are correct. I should have said some of the electrons
flowing through the circuit (external) will drive the chemical reaction in the
discharged battery so it's state of charge will be increased.

Even though the positive and negative poles are on opposite ends of an AA
cell, electricity does not really flow through from end to end as there is
no internal circuit as such - just chemical reactions as in a lead/acid battery.

But let's not miss the point by pointing out semantics discrepancies. The fact
is the discharged cell will take on some charge from the circuit. The same
goes for two 12v lead/acid batteries in a circuit.

CN

"krj" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Gary Schafer" wrote in message ...

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery


Utter ********.



Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN


Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.



Duh! The plates are hardwired together and connected to either the positive
or negative poles, but not to each other, as would be the case in the minds
of those claiming an internal circuit.


I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.


Duh, since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates but
not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa, to make a circuit as
some claim, and if one cell is discharged to say 1.5 volts while connected
to cells charged to 2.2 volts in a circuit with some sort of load between
the positive and negative battery terminals the discharged cell takes on
a charge just as if a battery charger were connected. The discharged
cell doesn't know anything other than the higher voltage is reversing it's
chemical reaction from a discharging reaction to a charging reaction.

If the battery was a conductor internally, tell me why as you charge
a discharged battery the amperage it takes gets less and less until it
tapers down to almost nothing. If the cells were connected by a circuit
inside the amperage would be constant.

CN


If "since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates
but not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa" how does a battery ever acheive 12 volts. That would put all the cells
in parallel and since a lead acid wet cell is 2.2 volts, on average, the battery would only have 2.2 volts.
krj

Boy are you dense! The individual CELLs (consisting of a series of plates)
are wired in series or they would not add up to 12 volts. But this does not
mean the PLATES are wired in series. Plates are either positive or negative
and exist independently of each other. Only chemical reactions interact with
them. Wires do not.

CN

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases
electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit
that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons)
can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of
some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is
not
a circuit.

CN


It is obvious from the above that CN, has absolutly no intelectual
knowledge of how wet cell batteries work, and the chemical reactions
that are involved, in both the charging and discharging of said wet cell
batteries.

He says that electrons are put into a wet cell battery during charging
and then they are released from said battery when discharging to preform
work at the load.

Now, we who have been wondering about his state of Education, surmise
that he never got out of Grammar School, and has a Grammer School
Inteligence view of the Laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Since this is now, obviously the case, it will serve all the rest of us
here to just let him go on thinking that his view is correct, for it
does work for him, and we can move on to weightier questions.

No amount of Posts are ever going to bring CN, into the real world,
because he doesn't have the education to understand the chemical
reactions, and Laws of Physics that apply to the subject at hand.

His simplistic view of the world, works for him, and he see's no reason
to educate himself otherwise. The rest of us know better, but there is
just "NO Hope of charging his brain with the required knowlege". To
high of "Internal Resistance".


You haven't read the post where I clarified your above misconception by
explaining lead/acid batteries don't store electrons per se but use
electrons provided in the charging process to drive chemical reactions
that change the composition of the plates and set them up for chemical
reactions in the other direction that changes the composition of the
plates back with an attendant release of electrons via the chemical
reactions. One could say electrons are stored vicariously.

CN

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message ...


Capt. Neal® wrote:

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the

*******eletrons flowing through it******** in the circuit driven by the
good battery will have driven

From the mouths of babes...or, in this case, cretins. Thus does the good Cap'n put paid to his own ludicrous 'theory'. Methinks
the boy may have seen the light :-) Oops, sorry, had an attack of blind screamin' optimism there for a moment.

Keith

Semantics and an honest mistake explained in the post above. Here is a cut
and paste for your edification.

***************

Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency. My bad.

Semantics again, but you are correct. I should have said some of the electrons
flowing through the circuit (external) will drive the chemical reaction in the
discharged battery so it's state of charge will be increased.

Even though the positive and negative poles are on opposite ends of an AA
cell, electricity does not really flow through from end to end as there is
no internal circuit as such - just chemical reactions as in a lead/acid battery.

But let's not miss the point by pointing out semantics discrepancies. The fact
is the discharged cell will take on some charge from the circuit. The same
goes for two 12v lead/acid batteries in a circuit.

CN

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Care to argue with that?


Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

Duh, do a Google search on "Redox" reactions. Electron flow is exactly what's happening.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no flow.

Dude, you've been draggin' your appendage in the dirt so long on this one, you could see the lines from Soyuz. Give it up. Cretin.

Hope this helps,


I right. Why should I give up? It looks like it is you who have tossed in
the towel. I seem to be making inroads into the ignorance.

CN

Keith wrote:

..this little spat looks as though the 'great' are taking on the 'good'..

.. to the consternation of those - like me - who would appreciate a
definitive answer..

Any chance of MOBbing in an expert? This thread ain't gonna go away, is
it..?


Hmmm... take a vote. One one side, we have the good captain. On the
other side, everyone else.

Andy

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Semantics

....is the only basis of your argument. Thus it's hardly appropriate to
use it as a excuse also.

and an honest mistake

No mistake, in that instance you were correct.

explained in the post above. Here is a cut
and paste for your edification.

None needed, but thanks.

Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency. My bad.

Semantics again, but you are correct. I should have said some of the
electrons
flowing through the circuit (external) will drive the chemical reaction
in the
discharged battery so it's state of charge will be increased.

Even though the positive and negative poles are on opposite ends of an AA
cell, electricity does not really flow through from end to end as there is
no internal circuit as such - just chemical reactions as in a lead/acid
battery.

Look at any electronics reference, closely, and maybe you'll see your
mistake. Quite simply, there is electron transport (i.e. electric
current by classical definition - not to be confused with the
Tricoboxylic Citric Acid Cycle, or Krebs cycle, or oxidative
phosphorylation for e.g.) external to the battery, under load, and there
is a concomitant *ION* transport occurring internal to the battery.
Both currents reverse going from discharge to charge. Now, pay
attention: how do you make an ion? Answer, remove or add electrons. Thus
Ion flow is nothing more than electron transport (i.e. current flow)
using an electrolytic intermediary. That's what redox systems are all about.

So...there is a current flow (via ionic intermediaries) within the
battery. Semantical pretenses aside, electrons are moving both inside
and outside. Get it??? No, I didn't think so.

Keith

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:07:39 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Me" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN

If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......

I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a circuit.

CN

Oh yea, it will charge the dead battery all right. Only problem is it
will charge it the wrong way! You will be reverse charging the dead
cell because the charging cell is hooked up backwards to it!

The good cell's positive terminal is hooked to the dead cells negative
terminal through the light bulb. And the good cell's negative terminal
is hooked to the dead cell's positive terminal.

That sure looks like reverse charge time to me. What do you think?

Regards
Gary

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

Well, you picture you quoted clearly says so. And apart from that, an
electrolyte IS an conductor, that is why it is called an electrolyte.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

Indeed, with movement of electrons, as in Redox reactions.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal
composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release
electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the
electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the
positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no
flow.

Ah, and where there is no brain, there is no sense in arguing......
I rest my case.

Meindert

Capt. Neal® wrote:
"Pete Verdon" d wrote
Capt. Neal® wrote:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

does not reverse the
current as most dumb engineers claim.

Oh? So how come the little arrow marked "I" (current) has changed
direction between the third and fourth pictures?

Duh! That is an EXTERNAL circuit. Note how there is never an arrow
shown inside the battery - only chemical reactions shown because
there is no internal circuit.

That's lovely. I'm not discussing whether there's a circuit inside the
battery. I'm addressing your claim that current in the external circuit
flows the same way for charging and discharging/use. The picture you
pointed to quite clearly contradicts that claim.

Pete

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

Therefore charge does travel through the battery. We have a complete
circuit, with external flow of electrons and internal flow of H+ ions.

There's where I disagree. Charge does not 'travel through' the inside
of a battery.

The battery is empty when all the sulphuric acid is used up and has been
turned into lead sulphate on both plates. Let's look at the battery just
before it's completely empty, when the last ten dissociated H2SO4 molecules
are still swimming around, and let's consider what happens from then until
they're all gone.

Your diagram shows the dissociation of H2SO4 as partial into H+ and HSO4-,
but in some ways it's easier to think in terms of full dissociation into
2H+ and SO4--. It makes no difference to the bottom line in terms of
charge accounting, it's just a little more confusing to work with the
partially dissociated model.

Think of these 10 molecules as spread out uniformly through the remaining
electrolyte, and let's have the battery oriented with its - terminal (Pb
plate) in the West and the + terminal (PbO2 plate) in the East, and let's
imagine the electrolyte divided into five vertical slices perpendicular
to the East-West line, and let there be two molecules (i.e. two SO4-- ions
and four H+ ions) in each slice. Call the slices A, B, C, D, E, with A
adjacent to the West plate and E to the East plate.

On average, one of the SO4-- from each slice will end up on each of the
plates, and all four H+ will take part only in the Eastern reaction.
The plate reactions a

West: Pb + SO4-- + 2H+ -- PbSO4 + 2H+ + 2e-
East: PbO2 + SO4-- + 4H+ + 2e- -- PbSO4 + 2H2O

Pragmatically, though, both SO4-- ions from both A and B will go West,
while both from both D and E will go East. From C, one will go West and
one East. But all H+ from all cells will go East.

We must have a neutral charge change within each slice, but as you'll see,
there will be charge flowing across all slice boundaries.

At the boundary between the West plate and slice A, A's own two SO4-- ions
will travel West, as will the three which came passing through from slices
B and C. Net flow across this boundary: -10 West.

At the AB boundary, we have A's 4 H+ going East, and B's and C's three
SO4-- coming West. So as far as slice A goes, we have -10 going out on
the Western front, -6 coming in from the East (subtotal -4 out), and A's
four H+ going out East. Final charge total is neutral *for the slice*,
but of course at the *boudaries* we have a net flow -10W in the W and
-6W and +4E in the East, which is equivalent to -10W.

Slice B: Its two SO4-- go West, one SO4-- passes through EW from C, all
its 4 H+ go East and A's 4 H+ pass through WE. Since all the "passers
through" cancel out, the net change to B is -4W and +4E which is neutral,
but the BC boundary has one SO4-- going West (-2W) and eight H+ going
east (+8E) which again is equivalent to -10W.

Slice C: One of its SO4-- goes West, one East. Net -4 out so far. All
its 4H+ go East. Net neutral. 8H+ passing through West to East.
CD boundary: one SO4-- East (-2E) 12H+ East (+12E). Net +10E which
is equivalent to -10W.

I'll leave what happens in slices D and E and at the D/E and E/Eplate
boundaries as an exercise.

The crux is that that no matter where you "slice" the electrolyte,
there will be charge flowing across that slice boundary, equal to -10
going West inside the battery for every -10 going East outside the
battery.

There is no conductor

The electrolyte is sulphuric acid. I think you'll find that's a conductor.
It's a water based solutions with ions, i.e. charge carriers, swimming
around in it. If more charge carriers swim one way than the other,
then you have a net flow of charge, i.e. a current, and that makes the
medium a conductor.

Ronald Raygun wrote:

The crux is that that no matter where you "slice" the electrolyte,
there will be charge flowing across that slice boundary, equal to -10
going West inside the battery for every -10 going East outside the
battery.

In particular, if you were in reality to slice the electrolyte and
block it off, by building a plastic wall in the middle of the cell,
in effect making two cells, one with just the - plate in it, and and one
with just the + plate, then no current would flow on the outside.

Deny that!!

No current would flow on the ouside *because* no current can flow on
the inside either. Blocking off the electrolyte shuts the circuit
down every bit as much as would cutting the wire.