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I've never known an electricain that knew much about DC. Most deal with
nothing but AC and then only know about standard codes and techniques related to household and industrial wiring. You would get better mileage claiming you are a neurosurgeon, Neal. "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Capt. Neal® wrote: I disagree. Two 12v batteries in series to make a 24v battery will self-level with respect to charge. They will self level even if one is tapped to run a VHF. No harm will come to either battery. Voltage can be likened to pressure. I hope this helps. CN bullcrap.... Better to leave the Blackgang stuff to the engineers that know what they are talking about...... Me I'm an electrician. Don't insult me with this engineer crap. I know how batteries work and I know circuits - particularly DC circuits. You idiots are only correct provided there is no circuit to which the two 12v batteries in series are connected. In any yacht I've ever been on the batteries are part of a circuit of there would be no use to have them aboard other than as ballast. In Nigel's case, tapping off one of two batteries connected in series in a circuit to run his VHF will not cause only the tapped battery to discharge as the voltage in the circuit will be lowered and not just the voltage in the tapped battery. Only if the two batteries were disconnected from the circuit would the tapped battery discharge more than the untapped battery. C'mon, folks, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure something this basic out. CN |
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:08:09 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:cbu8e.7195$Z73.4465@lakeread04... Why all this ranting over a proven fact that drawing 12V off of one battery of a 24V bank is not a good idea? A 40 amp 24/12 DC/DC converter capable of running all the electronics on the boat can be bought for the price of a couple of golf cart batteries. This is nonsense! I agree with you completely, Glenn. It's just that I cannot stand those people who claim to be in the know, are misinforming people who aren't. Meindert You don't know squat about batteries in a circuit, Mr. Sprang. You are the one doing the misinforming. Read my other posts and do something about your ignorance. Read this one, too. Perhaps if you read the truth three or four times it just might sink in. Nigel doesn't need anything but a couple of wires tapped off one of the batteries in his series circuit and as long as a circuit is maintained the two batteries will take and maintain an equal charge, irregardless of the tap. It's only when the two batteries are isolated from the circuit by a switch of some sort that the tapped battery will discharge and the untapped battery will not be affected. Unless there is a circuit there is no such thing as batteries connected in series. Connected in a series implies or necessitates a circuit. You can line up 20 flashlight D cells end to end and say they are connected in series but until you complete a circuit they remain separate and distinct cells. If you tap off the one in the center it will discharge and all the others will not be affected but as soon as you connect them to a circuit the discharged battery (ni-cad in this case) will become charged up at the expense of the others until its voltage is raised and the others 'voltage is lowered proportionally. I hope this simple example will reduce your fogged thinking. CN I realize we are dealing with someone here that just wants to make an argument and has no understanding of the subject at hand. But perhaps it has some entertainment value. Just so those that really want to know don't go away with the wrong idea of how things work, maybe the good "Capn" would like to explain how an individual cell in a battery that has been discharged is going to be charged up by the other cells in the battery by merely placing a load on the whole battery? That individual discharged cell will be receiving reverse polarity charge from the other cells in the circuit. Of course maybe the "Capn" has some sort of magic battery in his boat. Regards Gary |
"Nigel" wrote in message ... I have a 24v electrical set up on my boat, but need a 12v supply for my VHF (amongst other things). Is there any reason why I can't just run a 12v supply from just one of a pair of batteries, or do I need to use a 24v/12v converter. I release this will draw charge from just one battery , but won't the other just top it up and there by drain them both equally Thanks At least everyone seems to agree that the problem (non existing according to some people) is in the re-charging, not in the tapping off of the 12V. It's interesting why so many people got it wrong. Perhaps it is because they wrongly use the analogy with water. A water-flow through 2 unequally filled reservoirs in series will cause the reservoirs to level, but not an electric current through batteries. The total current has to flow through both batteries. The difference with the example of the water reservoirs is that the current itself does not charge the batteries, like the water does to the reservoirs. It is the chemical EFFECT that the electric current has on the batteries that charges them. The two unequally charged batteries have different resistances and as they are in series they form a voltage divider. During charging, the charger's voltage regulator senses the TOTAL Voltage of the two batteries is series and adjusts the current to keep this at say 28.8 Volts during the absorbtion stage. The battery with the lower charge may be charged with 14.2 Volts and the untapped one with 14.6 Volts. The latter will gass and suffer and eventually fail, if this mistreatment takes place on a regular basis. During gassing, the full battery's Voltage will still rise, but slower than the battery with the lesser charge. This means that the lower battery will eventually reach near full charge, but it will take long and at a great cost to the gassing battery. To prevent overcharging and gassing of one battery, the charger should look at the Voltage x 2 to of the higher Voltage battery. This can be achieved by sensing only the untapped battery and using a 2x Voltage multiplier circuit. By connecting the sense wire of the voltage regulator to this circuit, a simple safety mechanism is built. Absorbtion charging will stop when this battery reaches 14.4 Volts. It will protect the untapped (higher V) battery, but it will take a long time for the tapped battery to reach near-full charge state, as the full battery "puts the brake on". This not fully charged state is less damaging than the gassing and is acceptable. One way to compensate for this would be to connect a 12V solar panel to this battery to top it up to full charge when the boat is not being used. Wout |
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:13:29 +1200, "Wout B"
wrote: "Nigel" wrote in message .. . I have a 24v electrical set up on my boat, but need a 12v supply for my VHF (amongst other things). Is there any reason why I can't just run a 12v supply from just one of a pair of batteries, or do I need to use a 24v/12v converter. I release this will draw charge from just one battery , but won't the other just top it up and there by drain them both equally Thanks At least everyone seems to agree that the problem (non existing according to some people) is in the re-charging, not in the tapping off of the 12V. It's interesting why so many people got it wrong. Perhaps it is because they wrongly use the analogy with water. A water-flow through 2 unequally filled reservoirs in series will cause the reservoirs to level, but not an electric current through batteries. The total current has to flow through both batteries. The difference with the example of the water reservoirs is that the current itself does not charge the batteries, like the water does to the reservoirs. It is the chemical EFFECT that the electric current has on the batteries that charges them. The two unequally charged batteries have different resistances and as they are in series they form a voltage divider. During charging, the charger's voltage regulator senses the TOTAL Voltage of the two batteries is series and adjusts the current to keep this at say 28.8 Volts during the absorbtion stage. The battery with the lower charge may be charged with 14.2 Volts and the untapped one with 14.6 Volts. The latter will gass and suffer and eventually fail, if this mistreatment takes place on a regular basis. During gassing, the full battery's Voltage will still rise, but slower than the battery with the lesser charge. This means that the lower battery will eventually reach near full charge, but it will take long and at a great cost to the gassing battery. To prevent overcharging and gassing of one battery, the charger should look at the Voltage x 2 to of the higher Voltage battery. This can be achieved by sensing only the untapped battery and using a 2x Voltage multiplier circuit. By connecting the sense wire of the voltage regulator to this circuit, a simple safety mechanism is built. Absorbtion charging will stop when this battery reaches 14.4 Volts. It will protect the untapped (higher V) battery, but it will take a long time for the tapped battery to reach near-full charge state, as the full battery "puts the brake on". This not fully charged state is less damaging than the gassing and is acceptable. One way to compensate for this would be to connect a 12V solar panel to this battery to top it up to full charge when the boat is not being used. Wout Good explanation. As an added note, not fully charging a battery is less damaging than overcharging but: If just sensing the "untapped" battery and the charger shuts down, goes into the float mode because that battery is fully charged, then the "tapped" battery will never get a full charge. A battery that never gets a full charge will sulfate and have a shorter life because of it. There is no way to win short of having individual chargers for each battery. Or don't tap the battery bank. Regards Gary |
"Gary Schafer" wrote in message ... On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:13:29 +1200, "Wout B" wrote: "Nigel" wrote in message .. . I have a 24v electrical set up on my boat, but need a 12v supply for my VHF (amongst other things). Is there any reason why I can't just run a 12v supply from just one of a pair of batteries, or do I need to use a 24v/12v converter. I release this will draw charge from just one battery , but won't the other just top it up and there by drain them both equally Thanks At least everyone seems to agree that the problem (non existing according to some people) is in the re-charging, not in the tapping off of the 12V. It's interesting why so many people got it wrong. Perhaps it is because they wrongly use the analogy with water. A water-flow through 2 unequally filled reservoirs in series will cause the reservoirs to level, but not an electric current through batteries. The total current has to flow through both batteries. The difference with the example of the water reservoirs is that the current itself does not charge the batteries, like the water does to the reservoirs. It is the chemical EFFECT that the electric current has on the batteries that charges them. The two unequally charged batteries have different resistances and as they are in series they form a voltage divider. During charging, the charger's voltage regulator senses the TOTAL Voltage of the two batteries is series and adjusts the current to keep this at say 28.8 Volts during the absorbtion stage. The battery with the lower charge may be charged with 14.2 Volts and the untapped one with 14.6 Volts. The latter will gass and suffer and eventually fail, if this mistreatment takes place on a regular basis. During gassing, the full battery's Voltage will still rise, but slower than the battery with the lesser charge. This means that the lower battery will eventually reach near full charge, but it will take long and at a great cost to the gassing battery. To prevent overcharging and gassing of one battery, the charger should look at the Voltage x 2 to of the higher Voltage battery. This can be achieved by sensing only the untapped battery and using a 2x Voltage multiplier circuit. By connecting the sense wire of the voltage regulator to this circuit, a simple safety mechanism is built. Absorbtion charging will stop when this battery reaches 14.4 Volts. It will protect the untapped (higher V) battery, but it will take a long time for the tapped battery to reach near-full charge state, as the full battery "puts the brake on". This not fully charged state is less damaging than the gassing and is acceptable. One way to compensate for this would be to connect a 12V solar panel to this battery to top it up to full charge when the boat is not being used. Wout Good explanation. As an added note, not fully charging a battery is less damaging than overcharging but: If just sensing the "untapped" battery and the charger shuts down, goes into the float mode because that battery is fully charged, then the "tapped" battery will never get a full charge. A battery that never gets a full charge will sulfate and have a shorter life because of it. There is no way to win short of having individual chargers for each battery. Or don't tap the battery bank. Regards Gary Gary, Going too early into float-mode is a general problem with chargers. I've "doctored" my smart 3-stage alternator V-reg to prolongue absorption. If the batteries are not all that new anymore the V- level jumps up very quickly. Timed absorption stage with adjustable time is ideal, because the age and state of the batteries can be compensated for. In my opinion, provided that the gassing is prevented as described and provided that the tapped battery is regularly brought up to full charge in some way, the tapping is O.K., if it is only for electronics. Maybe install a simple changeover switch to tap the batteries in turn. Very important is of course, like someone else mentioned before, that the electronics that are run this way have an isolated -wire, not connected to the 24V system's ground. Regards, Wout Maybe the batteries need replacement a year or so earlier, but I think it will work out cheaper. Many people leave their boats on the moorings for weeks with half-charged batteries and they still seem to get years of use out of them. A bit of "tapping", wisely done, A cheap solution would also be to install a changeover switch, to tap the batteries in turn, but the gassing-prevention has to be number 1. |
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
... Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and incorrect! How can some people's minds be so ineffective at thinking? I know it is pointless to argue with you but: Perhaps you ******s would understand it better using flashlight D cells as an example. Take one D cell that is half charged (Ni-Cad) and put it into a two-cell flashlight in the company of another NI-Cad) D cell that is fully charged and turn on the switch. The bulb will light and current will pass through the circuit. As well as working to light the bulb, the fully-charged cell will discharge into the half charge cell until the voltage in both cells equalizes. Perhaps you could try to envision in which direction current flows through the empty cell in this example and next, try to envision in which direction current flows when *charging* a cell. Or even better: try this example for yourself. I hope this helps. Certainly not. Meindert |
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote: I'm an electrician. Don't insult me with this engineer crap. I know how batteries work and I know circuits - particularly DC circuits. You idiots are only correct provided there is no circuit to which the two 12v batteries in series are connected. In any yacht I've ever been on the batteries are part of a circuit of there would be no use to have them aboard other than as ballast. In Nigel's case, tapping off one of two batteries connected in series in a circuit to run his VHF will not cause only the tapped battery to discharge as the voltage in the circuit will be lowered and not just the voltage in the tapped battery. Only if the two batteries were disconnected from the circuit would the tapped battery discharge more than the untapped battery. C'mon, folks, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure something this basic out. CN Like I stated before, if you paid any money for your electrical education, you certainly should go back and ask for a refund, because you didn't learn anything in DC Class...... Me |
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote: You don't know squat about batteries in a circuit, Mr. Sprang. You are the one doing the misinforming. Read my other posts and do something about your ignorance. Read this one, too. Perhaps if you read the truth three or four times it just might sink in. Nigel doesn't need anything but a couple of wires tapped off one of the batteries in his series circuit and as long as a circuit is maintained the two batteries will take and maintain an equal charge, irregardless of the tap. It's only when the two batteries are isolated from the circuit by a switch of some sort that the tapped battery will discharge and the untapped battery will not be affected. Unless there is a circuit there is no such thing as batteries connected in series. Connected in a series implies or necessitates a circuit. You can line up 20 flashlight D cells end to end and say they are connected in series but until you complete a circuit they remain separate and distinct cells. If you tap off the one in the center it will discharge and all the others will not be affected but as soon as you connect them to a circuit the discharged battery (ni-cad in this case) will become charged up at the expense of the others until its voltage is raised and the others 'voltage is lowered proportionally. I hope this simple example will reduce your fogged thinking. CN and the Dufus chimes in again, with more off the wall BS..... Me |
In article ,
Gary Schafer wrote: Of course maybe the "Capn" has some sort of magic battery in his boat. Regards Gary The only thing Capt. Neal has on his boat is a lot of "Magic smoke" that escaped his DC electrical Panel...... Me |
"Me" wrote in message ... In article , Capt. Neal® wrote: You don't know squat about batteries in a circuit, Mr. Sprang. You are the one doing the misinforming. Read my other posts and do something about your ignorance. Read this one, too. Perhaps if you read the truth three or four times it just might sink in. Nigel doesn't need anything but a couple of wires tapped off one of the batteries in his series circuit and as long as a circuit is maintained the two batteries will take and maintain an equal charge, irregardless of the tap. It's only when the two batteries are isolated from the circuit by a switch of some sort that the tapped battery will discharge and the untapped battery will not be affected. Unless there is a circuit there is no such thing as batteries connected in series. Connected in a series implies or necessitates a circuit. You can line up 20 flashlight D cells end to end and say they are connected in series but until you complete a circuit they remain separate and distinct cells. If you tap off the one in the center it will discharge and all the others will not be affected but as soon as you connect them to a circuit the discharged battery (ni-cad in this case) will become charged up at the expense of the others until its voltage is raised and the others 'voltage is lowered proportionally. I hope this simple example will reduce your fogged thinking. CN and the Dufus chimes in again, with more off the wall BS..... Me Why not refute my example instead of calling me names.? What's that you say? You can't refute the valid example? Oh, I see . . . CN |
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote: He needs to go back to school! CN You Sir, are a complete, and utter Moroooon.... (Bugs Bunny Definition) Now please take you DC Electrical Theories over to one of the alt.engineering Newsgroups and see if they fly over there...... I can hear the "Rolling on the floor, Laughing" already..... We here have been vary patient with you, but your entertainment value is about run it's course, and your noninformative posts could actually cost unlearned folks, money and time. I only hope your Navigation skills aren't on a par with you engineering skills. Me |
"Me" wrote in message ... In article , Capt. Neal® wrote: I'm an electrician. Don't insult me with this engineer crap. I know how batteries work and I know circuits - particularly DC circuits. You idiots are only correct provided there is no circuit to which the two 12v batteries in series are connected. In any yacht I've ever been on the batteries are part of a circuit of there would be no use to have them aboard other than as ballast. In Nigel's case, tapping off one of two batteries connected in series in a circuit to run his VHF will not cause only the tapped battery to discharge as the voltage in the circuit will be lowered and not just the voltage in the tapped battery. Only if the two batteries were disconnected from the circuit would the tapped battery discharge more than the untapped battery. C'mon, folks, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure something this basic out. CN Like I stated before, if you paid any money for your electrical education, you certainly should go back and ask for a refund, because you didn't learn anything in DC Class...... Me Sorry, I'm an expert yacht electrician and I used to teach 12v electrical circuits at one time. I know of which I speak. CN |
"Me" wrote in message ... In article , Capt. Neal® wrote: He needs to go back to school! CN You Sir, are a complete, and utter Moroooon.... (Bugs Bunny Definition) Now please take you DC Electrical Theories over to one of the alt.engineering Newsgroups and see if they fly over there...... I can hear the "Rolling on the floor, Laughing" already..... We here have been vary patient with you, but your entertainment value is about run it's course, and your noninformative posts could actually cost unlearned folks, money and time. I only hope your Navigation skills aren't on a par with you engineering skills. Me Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected in a circuit? CN |
In message ,
=?Windows-1252?Q?Capt. _Neal=AE?= writes Sorry, I'm an expert yacht electrician and I used to teach 12v electrical circuits at one time. I know of which I speak. Hmm.. ...this little spat looks as though the 'great' are taking on the 'good'.. .. to the consternation of those - like me - who would appreciate a definitive answer.. Any chance of MOBbing in an expert? This thread ain't gonna go away, is it..? -- Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd |
In message , Me
writes In article , Capt. Neal® wrote: He needs to go back to school! CN You Sir, are a complete, and utter Moroooon.... (Bugs Bunny Definition) Now please take you DC Electrical Theories over to one of the alt.engineering Newsgroups and see if they fly over there...... I can hear the "Rolling on the floor, Laughing" already..... We here have been vary patient with you, but your entertainment value is about run it's course, and your noninformative posts could actually cost unlearned folks, money and time. I only hope your Navigation skills aren't on a par with you engineering skills. Me Would you like to 'de-cloak' from your anonymous header? Or are you yet another pontificating troll? -- Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd |
In message , Me
writes In article , Gary Schafer wrote: Of course maybe the "Capn" has some sort of magic battery in his boat. Regards Gary The only thing Capt. Neal has on his boat is a lot of "Magic smoke" that escaped his DC electrical Panel...... White smoke presumably? He thinks he's the best thing since Gono signal -- Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd |
In message ,
=?Windows-1252?Q?Capt. _Neal=AE?= writes "Me" wrote in message ... I hope this simple example will reduce your fogged thinking. and the Dufus chimes in again, with more off the wall BS..... Why not refute my example instead of calling me names.? I thought you were a pretty good troll, Cap'n.. The prat responding to you makes you look like a puking infant, if one adopts trolling criteria.. -- Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
Sorry, I'm an expert yacht electrician and I used to teach 12v electrical circuits at one time. I know of which I speak. Ah, in between these other activities, no doubt? ---- 1966 Enrolled in college at Oxford. 1969 Received PhD in physics, aerodynamics, hydrodynamics, vocational agriculture and home economics. Tutored Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, and Marilyn Vos Savant. 1970-1972 Served in the US Army. Location classified top secret so don't even think about asking. 1972-1974 Raced the professional motocross circuit with the likes of the great Joel Robert, Hans Maisch and Preston Petty. 1975-1980 Sailed and did research with Jacques Cousteau. Helped him fit out Calypso. Helped him invent SCUBA. 1981 Bought my first sailing yacht, an old wooden lightning that had been glassed over and weighed twice as much as it should have. Even so, I won every race I entered by a wide margin. (Besides the Marconi rig and tributyltin bottom paint, I have some other tricks up my sleeve that I have yet to reveal.) ---- Plenty more bull**** at http://captneal.homestead.com/ Pete |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected in a circuit? Which of these circuits? http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/The...sBatteries.png A or B? Pete |
"Pete Verdon" d wrote in message ... Capt. Neal® wrote: Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected in a circuit? Which of these circuits? http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/The...sBatteries.png A or B? Pete Neither! I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. CN |
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN |
"Keith" wrote in message ... In message , =?Windows-1252?Q?Capt. _Neal=AE?= writes "Me" wrote in message ... I hope this simple example will reduce your fogged thinking. and the Dufus chimes in again, with more off the wall BS..... Why not refute my example instead of calling me names.? I thought you were a pretty good troll, Cap'n.. The prat responding to you makes you look like a puking infant, if one adopts trolling criteria.. -- Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd I'm not trolling here. I'm attempting to educate some folks who need it. CN |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and incorrect! How can some people's minds be so ineffective at thinking? I know it is pointless to argue with you but: Perhaps you ******s would understand it better using flashlight D cells as an example. Take one D cell that is half charged (Ni-Cad) and put it into a two-cell flashlight in the company of another NI-Cad) D cell that is fully charged and turn on the switch. The bulb will light and current will pass through the circuit. As well as working to light the bulb, the fully-charged cell will discharge into the half charge cell until the voltage in both cells equalizes. Perhaps you could try to envision in which direction current flows through the empty cell in this example and next, try to envision in which direction current flows when *charging* a cell. Or even better: try this example for yourself. I hope this helps. Certainly not. Meindert So even an engineer might understand. . . http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Engineers look at a battery as a physical object while an electrician looks at it as a container for a chemical reactions that store and release electricity. Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most dumb engineers claim. Read the above link carefully and click on all the links and perhaps you will understand the error of your thinking. You're welcomd. CN |
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps? How do batteries work? Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit. Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit. The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons. In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit. However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a limited amount of power available in a battery. When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again provide full power. |
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps? How do batteries work? The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the battery. Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more electrons can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive another chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen. View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart and you'll find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax paper. Electrons go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the outer casing and "pow" there they go . . . A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via chemical means not physical means like a condensor. Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit. Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit. The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons. If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or worse yet, never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there is no circuit inside the battery. In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit. However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a limited amount of power available in a battery. When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again provide full power. You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank. CN |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by definition, current flow. Going back to your previous postulation (to assume the truth or reality something with no proof, especially as a basis of argument), how does a battery with higher EMF in series with a battery of a lower EMF charge the battery with the lower EMF when a light bulb is connected if there is no current (or electron) flow? krj |
"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: You cannot run current though a battery backwards. Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards. You are guilty of misreading your ammeter. One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts) What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery. A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons. When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing. Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These go in or out but never through. CN |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps? How do batteries work? The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the battery. Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more electrons can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive another chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen. View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart and you'll find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax paper. Electrons go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the outer casing and "pow" there they go . . . A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via chemical means not physical means like a condensor. Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit. Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit. The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons. If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or worse yet, never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there is no circuit inside the battery. You never heard of "self discharge" of a lead acid battery? In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit. However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a limited amount of power available in a battery. When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again provide full power. You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank. CN Too stupid for comments! |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: You cannot run current though a battery backwards. Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards. You are guilty of misreading your ammeter. One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts) What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery. A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons. When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing. Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These go in or out but never through. CN Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow" |
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by definition, current flow. There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected to a circuit externally to power it. Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery. They go in, they go out, they don't go through. Going back to your previous postulation (to assume the truth or reality something with no proof, especially as a basis of argument), how does a battery with higher EMF in series with a battery of a lower EMF charge the battery with the lower EMF when a light bulb is connected if there is no current (or electron) flow? krj Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons flow through the battery - only in and out. Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are not a circuit. CN |
"krj" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: "Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: You cannot run current though a battery backwards. Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards. You are guilty of misreading your ammeter. One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts) What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery. A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons. When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing. Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These go in or out but never through. CN Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow" Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow. Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow. CN CN |
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message ... I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released. Current never goes backwards in the battery. This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it. CN Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going? krj Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not a circuit. CN So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps? How do batteries work? The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the battery. Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more electrons can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive another chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen. View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart and you'll find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax paper. Electrons go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the outer casing and "pow" there they go . . . A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via chemical means not physical means like a condensor. Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit. Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit. The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons. If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or worse yet, never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there is no circuit inside the battery. You never heard of "self discharge" of a lead acid battery? In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit. However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a limited amount of power available in a battery. When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again provide full power. You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank. CN Too stupid for comments! Or, too correct for valid rebuttal . . . CN |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only tank. It is not a circuit. CN OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by definition, current flow. There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected to a circuit externally to power it. Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery. They go in, they go out, they don't go through. Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons flow through the battery - only in and out. Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are not a circuit. CN If it is like a tank, why do you have to connect the negative lead from your solar panel? I fill my gas tank with only one hose. Maybe it's so that the electrons from one side of the solar panel can get back to the other. That's called a "complete circuit" which is necessary for current flow (or electron flow). If the electrons don't move through the battery, how do they get from one side of the circuit to the other? krj |
Capt. Neal® wrote:
"krj" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: "Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: You cannot run current though a battery backwards. Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards. You are guilty of misreading your ammeter. One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts) What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery. A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons. When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing. Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These go in or out but never through. CN Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow" Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow. Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow. CN CN Now we are talking semantics. So you do admit that there is a movement of electrons through the medium within a battery. krj |
"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery Utter ********. Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction. If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge. CN |
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will cause current to flow through the entire circuit. In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be discharged together through the load. The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole. To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more discharged than the other. Meindert You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete circuit. Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort that has flow one way or the other inside it. that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only tank. It is not a circuit. CN OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by definition, current flow. There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected to a circuit externally to power it. Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery. They go in, they go out, they don't go through. Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons flow through the battery - only in and out. Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are not a circuit. CN If it is like a tank, why do you have to connect the negative lead from your solar panel? Good question. You connect the negative lead so the chemical reactions can proceed. There is one chemical reaction on the positive plates and another on the negative plates. They must run together or they won't run at all. I fill my gas tank with only one hose. But, if you didn't allow a way for air to escape, you would not be able to fill your tank. Maybe it's so that the electrons from one side of the solar panel can get back to the other. Correct because the solar panel uses photons from the sun to drive the current round and round and does not store electrons like a battery does. That's called a "complete circuit" which is necessary for current flow (or electron flow). If the electrons don't move through the battery, how do they get from one side of the circuit to the other? Again, electrons don't move THROUGH the battery. They only reside on physically separated plates via chemical reaction (not a circuit). When the separated plates are connected by a circuit outside the battery another set of chemical reactions can then occur which reactions produce electrons as this set of reactions goes to completion via the circuit outside the battery. The lack of understanding of what happens inside a battery around these groups is appalling. It's basic chemistry and not that difficult to comprehend. CN |
"krj" wrote in message . .. Capt. Neal® wrote: "krj" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: "Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Capt. Neal® wrote: You cannot run current though a battery backwards. Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards. You are guilty of misreading your ammeter. One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts) What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery. A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons. When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing. Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These go in or out but never through. CN Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow" Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow. Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow. CN CN Now we are talking semantics. So you do admit that there is a movement of electrons through the medium within a battery. krj I admit no such thing. Electrons move into and out of the plates via chemical reactions. Electrons don't move through the plates as in from positive plate to negative plate through the media. If this were the case, there would be no potential and no battery. CN |
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