Batttery combiner and charger setup
 

I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

Yes. The purpose of a combiner is to connect the starter battery
to the charger when it needs sharging. Either get rid of the combiner
(recommended) or remove the charging connection from the
charger to the starter battery.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

Doug, could you be more specific, why do you recommend getting rid of the
combiner?

I would think the problem is that the charger takes its lead from the main
bank which probably requires more charging than the starter and consequently
the starter bank is being over charged.

I know of combiners, isolators and echo chargers, but do not know which is
the best. Without one of them, you need dual outputs from both the charger
and alternator or you need a 1/2/both switch which is no longer the
recommended approach. I use an echo charger and only connect the charger to
the main bank and it works great.

Don't slam me hear, I'm still trying to get a handle on best practices, and
why, myself.

John


"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Yes. The purpose of a combiner is to connect the starter battery
to the charger when it needs sharging. Either get rid of the combiner
(recommended) or remove the charging connection from the
charger to the starter battery.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

John's diagnosis is probably correct. And there is nothing wrong with a
battery combiner. It is far better than an isolater (no voltage drop) and
just as effective as the Echo Charger.

David

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

I would be a bit suspicious of the quality of the starting battery.
My experience has been that when batteries get on their last legs (and
need to be changed anyway) that they seem to boil away the water a
lot. It seems that no matter how you stay on top of keeping it filled
it seems to boil away. I suspect that it may be due to sulfation
buildup that creates something like an internal short, heat, and loss
of water.

Good luck
Don

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an Eliminator
from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery. Depending upon your use,
using the second tap on the charger is great if you get to shorepower
regularly. If you are away from shorepower for extended
periods then charging you house bank from the alternator
with an Eliminator or EchoCharge is a better solution.
The problem with your current setup is that the starting battery is
being charged by both outputs of the shorepower charger. As such
it cannot determine when to taper off the charge on just the starting
battery.

Doug
s/v Callista

"johnh" wrote in message
news:YS18d.171507$D%.29911@attbi_s51...
Doug, could you be more specific, why do you recommend getting rid of the
combiner?

I would think the problem is that the charger takes its lead from the main
bank which probably requires more charging than the starter and
consequently the starter bank is being over charged.

I know of combiners, isolators and echo chargers, but do not know which is
the best. Without one of them, you need dual outputs from both the
charger and alternator or you need a 1/2/both switch which is no longer
the recommended approach. I use an echo charger and only connect the
charger to the main bank and it works great.

Don't slam me hear, I'm still trying to get a handle on best practices,
and why, myself.

John


"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Yes. The purpose of a combiner is to connect the starter battery
to the charger when it needs sharging. Either get rid of the combiner
(recommended) or remove the charging connection from the
charger to the starter battery.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

"Doug Dotson" blabbered in message-id
the following folklore and rubbish.......

This post is a perfect example of why one should not seek expert advice on
usenet. It is full of idiots such as Doug who thinks he knows it all.

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an Eliminator
from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery. Depending upon your use,
using the second tap on the charger is great if you get to shorepower
regularly. If you are away from shorepower for extended
periods then charging you house bank from the alternator
with an Eliminator or EchoCharge is a better solution.
The problem with your current setup is that the starting battery is
being charged by both outputs of the shorepower charger. As such
it cannot determine when to taper off the charge on just the starting
battery.

Doug
s/v Callista


1. A start battery does not need an optimal charge.

2. If it did then you are correct in that the Eliminator from Amplepower would
provide such a charge. That is the _only_ correct statement in your entire
post.

3. The Echo Charge is made by Cruising Equipment (now part of Xantrex) not
Balmar.

4. The echo charge does not provide an "optimal charge" for the engine battery.
It simply copies the charge profile of its input subject to a 15 amp (7.5 amp
for the 24 volt model) current limit. Therefore if the alternator output is at
14.4 volts, then so is the output of the Echo Charge. No matter how long it is
on. There is therefore _no_ advantage over a battery combiner.

5. The Xantrex charger does have separate outputs but they are _not_ separately
controlled and the charger does _not_ measure the voltage or current on each
output separately so removing his battery combiner will make no difference
whatsoever. The charger will already be holding both batteries at the same
voltage.

6. Your statement that QUOTE "The problem with your current setup is that
the starting battery is being charged by both outputs of the shorepower
charger. As such it cannot determine when to taper off the charge on just the
starting battery" /QUOTE....... is total garbage for the reasons given above.

7. Your statement QUOTE "Depending upon your use, using the second tap on the
charger is great if you get to shorepower regularly" /QUOTE..... is no
different than using the battery combiner he already has. Again for the reasons
given above.

Now to genuinely help the original poster.

Don's explanation is almost certainly the correct one. The engine start battery
is duff. Almost certainly sulphated up. The first major symptom of this is one
shorted cell which then leaves the other 5 being overcharged and they lose
water at a very fast rate.

David also is correct. There is nothing wrong with a battery combiner.

Now then Doug, I dare you to argue back.

:-)

OK , I see your point. I have 2 choices. I can keep the combiner and
use only one tap from the charger. The result is a starting battery
that is never optimally charged. Or I can lose the combiner, use both
taps of the charger and get optimally charged battery banks, but have
to deal with the inconvenience of manual switching.



On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:19:29 -0400, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an Eliminator
from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery. Depending upon your use,
using the second tap on the charger is great if you get to shorepower
regularly. If you are away from shorepower for extended
periods then charging you house bank from the alternator
with an Eliminator or EchoCharge is a better solution.
The problem with your current setup is that the starting battery is
being charged by both outputs of the shorepower charger. As such
it cannot determine when to taper off the charge on just the starting
battery.

Doug
s/v Callista

"johnh" wrote in message
news:YS18d.171507$D%.29911@attbi_s51...
Doug, could you be more specific, why do you recommend getting rid of the
combiner?

I would think the problem is that the charger takes its lead from the main
bank which probably requires more charging than the starter and
consequently the starter bank is being over charged.

I know of combiners, isolators and echo chargers, but do not know which is
the best. Without one of them, you need dual outputs from both the
charger and alternator or you need a 1/2/both switch which is no longer
the recommended approach. I use an echo charger and only connect the
charger to the main bank and it works great.

Don't slam me hear, I'm still trying to get a handle on best practices,
and why, myself.

John


"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Yes. The purpose of a combiner is to connect the starter battery
to the charger when it needs sharging. Either get rid of the combiner
(recommended) or remove the charging connection from the
charger to the starter battery.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an
Eliminator from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery.

What do you base this upon?

-- Geoff

Marc wrote in Message-id:


OK , I see your point. I have 2 choices. I can keep the combiner and
use only one tap from the charger. The result is a starting battery
that is never optimally charged. Or I can lose the combiner, use both
taps of the charger and get optimally charged battery banks, but have
to deal with the inconvenience of manual switching.


You have a third choice. Ignore know-nothing Doug and listen to the other
posters who all seem to question Doug's "knowledge"

There is nothing wrong with your set-up. Keep it as it is. It is a good set-up.

Replace your engine start battery. That will be the end of your problem.

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in Message-id:


"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an
Eliminator from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery.

What do you base this upon?


He bases it upon the fact that he knows about the charger concerned, the
batteries, the alternator and everything else in the installation.

Unfortunately what Doug "knows" is wrong.

Battery combiners are a good solution to a problem.

I base it upon the fact that I have seen many of them fail
rather than work. Generally it has resulted in the destruction
of either the starter or house battery or both.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an
Eliminator from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery.

What do you base this upon?

-- Geoff

Nice try Jaxie.

"Folklore killer" wrote in message
...
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in Message-id:


"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

I don't like them. They don;t provide an optimal
charge for the start battery. A better solution is to get an
Eliminator from
AmplePower or an EchoCharge from Balmar. They provide a
better charge for the starting battery.

What do you base this upon?


He bases it upon the fact that he knows about the charger concerned, the
batteries, the alternator and everything else in the installation.

Unfortunately what Doug "knows" is wrong.

Battery combiners are a good solution to a problem.

"Doug Dotson" AMcom wrote in Message-id:


Nice try Jaxie.


So Doug doesn't know about chargers, doesn't know about split charge systems,
doesn't know about batteries. In fact Doug doesn't seem to know anything about
marine power systems.

He now asserts that he knows I am someone called "Jaxie"

Guess what folks. Doug is wrong _again_

To reiterate.....

Everything you stated in your post was incorrect. It was bad advice,
technically incorrect and founded on poor technical knowledge and fault
diagnosis.

"Doug Dotson" AMcom wrote in Message-id:


I base it upon the fact that I have seen many of them fail
rather than work. Generally it has resulted in the destruction
of either the starter or house battery or both.


And again Doug shows his complete lack of "expert" knowledge.

If you have seen "many" battery combiners fail that is because they were either
cheap ones or incorrectly sized for the job. If they were incorrectly sized for
the job then, having shown how little you know, I suspect _you_ installed them.

Failed battery combiners result in one or more batteries not being charged.
This shows itself as a flat battery. It does _not_ destroy the battery.

Go back to school. If you ever actually went.

I notice you have not tried to refute _anything_ I have stated.

Everyone else reading this thread will have noticed too.

Now then Doug, I dare you to argue back.

Then I stand corrected, Jaxie.

"Folklore killer" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" AMcom wrote in Message-id:


Nice try Jaxie.


So Doug doesn't know about chargers, doesn't know about split charge
systems,
doesn't know about batteries. In fact Doug doesn't seem to know anything
about
marine power systems.

He now asserts that he knows I am someone called "Jaxie"

Guess what folks. Doug is wrong _again_

To reiterate.....

Everything you stated in your post was incorrect. It was bad advice,
technically incorrect and founded on poor technical knowledge and fault
diagnosis.

OK JAX. You win!

"Folklore killer" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" AMcom wrote in Message-id:


I base it upon the fact that I have seen many of them fail
rather than work. Generally it has resulted in the destruction
of either the starter or house battery or both.


And again Doug shows his complete lack of "expert" knowledge.

If you have seen "many" battery combiners fail that is because they were
either
cheap ones or incorrectly sized for the job. If they were incorrectly
sized for
the job then, having shown how little you know, I suspect _you_ installed
them.

Failed battery combiners result in one or more batteries not being
charged.
This shows itself as a flat battery. It does _not_ destroy the battery.

Go back to school. If you ever actually went.

I notice you have not tried to refute _anything_ I have stated.

Everyone else reading this thread will have noticed too.

Now then Doug, I dare you to argue back.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

Then I stand corrected, Jaxie.

And yet another Kill File entry. JAX, get a life! Or better yet, some
manners.

-- Geoff

"Doug Dotson" AMcom wrote in Message-id:


OK JAX. You win!


And yet I note that _still_ you cannot refute anything I say.

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in Message-id:


"Doug Dotson" wrote in
:

Then I stand corrected, Jaxie.

And yet another Kill File entry. JAX, get a life! Or better yet, some
manners.


I posted nothing that was bad mannered.

What I _did_ post was _factual_ information. Unlike the half brained folklore
and bull**** posted by Doug, the self professed "expert"

Doug does not know what he is talking about and people on usenet would do
themselves a lot of favours if they realised that and stop listening to his
technically incorrect folklore.

I suggest you get rid of a deep cycle battery for the starting battery. Use
a regular starting battery, such as is available at any automotive supply
store. They are cheap and are designed for delivering a lot of current for a
short period of time in a starting application.
The combiner, if wired correctly, should be only charging the banks when the
alternator is delivering power. Shore power and the battery charger should
not be a part of the combiner path. They should be two separate, not
simultaneous, charging circuits.
Ensure only the engine is connected to the start battery. There should be no
additional loads on the start battery requiring it to be charged frequently.
Suggest you put a heavy duty ON/OFF switch in the path between the shore
power charger and the start battery. Turn ON only when you feel the starter
battery needs a charge.

Doug K7ABX

"Don WA5NGP" wrote in message
om...
I would be a bit suspicious of the quality of the starting battery.
My experience has been that when batteries get on their last legs (and
need to be changed anyway) that they seem to boil away the water a
lot. It seems that no matter how you stay on top of keeping it filled
it seems to boil away. I suspect that it may be due to sulfation
buildup that creates something like an internal short, heat, and loss
of water.

Good luck
Don

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I suspect something is wrong, but need confirmation. I have three
deep cycle wet group 24's as the house bank and 1 deep cycle wet
group 24 as the starting bank. A 150 amp combiner is installed
between the banks and both banks are connected to individual legs of a
xantrex 20 amp charger.

The boat sits in a slip with shore power connected, charger on, and a
reefer running 24/7 off the house bank.

I am losing electrolyte faster in the starting bank than the house
bank.

Question : Since I have a combiner, should the charger be hooked up
to both banks? Could this be causing the electrolyte loss?

I think that is what "You Win" means, JAX.

"Folklore killer" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" AMcom wrote in Message-id:


OK JAX. You win!


And yet I note that _still_ you cannot refute anything I say.

"Doug" wrote:

Rather than use a combiner, my Ample Power regulator has provision to
drive a solenoid to parallel the start and house batteries when the
engine is running. My Xantrex 20 amp shore power charger drives both
banks when on shore power.

I have a pair of golf cart batteries for the house bank, and a normal
auto type for a start battery. All works well, and I find that the
start battery electrolyte rarely needs to be topped up. The house
battery needs topping up a couple of times a season.

A decent regulator or shore power charger will control the charging
voltage to keep the batteries from gassing. For example, when the
house battery is low, but the start battery is up (as is normally the
case), the charger might be putting out 14.4 volts or so. The house
battery will be taking 20 amps, while the fully charged start battery
is taking only few hundred milliamps. Eventually the charger will
switch to float mode, and the voltage will go to around 13.3 volts (or
whatever you have the Xantrex set for).

Charging batteries in parallel is not a problem if the batteries are
in good condition. The most deeply discharged battery will control the
charger's output - the other battery will be at the same voltage, but
since it fully charged, it's charging current will be less. There is
no reason why it should lose electrolyte faster than the other one.


I suggest you get rid of a deep cycle battery for the starting battery. Use
a regular starting battery, such as is available at any automotive supply
store. They are cheap and are designed for delivering a lot of current for a
short period of time in a starting application.
The combiner, if wired correctly, should be only charging the banks when the
alternator is delivering power. Shore power and the battery charger should
not be a part of the combiner path. They should be two separate, not
simultaneous, charging circuits.
Ensure only the engine is connected to the start battery. There should be no
additional loads on the start battery requiring it to be charged frequently.
Suggest you put a heavy duty ON/OFF switch in the path between the shore
power charger and the start battery. Turn ON only when you feel the starter
battery needs a charge.

Doug K7ABX


Larry Bradley VE3CRX
Remove "removeme" from my e-mail address for direct mail
Ottawa, Canada

(use the e-mail address above to send directly to me)