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Jack Painter
 
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"Larry W4CSC" wrote
"Jack Painter" wrote in
I believe the thread has been dealing only with HF, where a license is
required. I operate under NTIA not FCC so I haven't had that issue
come up...but Larry certainly would on a sail yacht with licensed
equipment. I can say that the equipment is certainly different where
HF is concerned, but not as much fun as pinging your buddy's GPS with
your position and channel on VHF-DSC.

Jack


I was referring to the HF GMDSS system, which goes along with the Icom

M800
HF/SSB rig of this thread, although it does not have GMDSS.....

NOT UNLICENSED VHF....

To operate HF GMDSS aboard your sailboat, a GMDSS OPERATORS license IS
required, no matter what the Waste Marine salesman told you...


Larry, it's a confusing matter, and I don't want in the middle of something
I cannot offer evidence for. So I will just add that when Rick quoted or
refeernced the NavCenter pages, I will caution that we have not done a
bang-up job of maintainng that website. I have had to clairify boater's
questions there about watchstanding before as it is very confusing in some
areas.

Like this (NavCenter)
For MF Radios the watch is maintained on 2182 kHz and for MF-DSC radios on
2187.5 kHz. There are similar requirements that voluntary vessels with
HF-DSC radios and Inmarsat Satellite terminals cruise with the radios turned
on and watching the emergency channels
--
Realize that 5 years after that was published, we STILL don't have a Sea
Area A-2 yet! And we do a somewhat less than credible job of monitoring 2182
from lousy whips antennas at Groups. And where I work, we missed the 2187.5
GMDSS distress call sent by the exploded T/V Bow Mariner some 80 miles away
from our main DSC antenna.. So if it's an FCC rule we are talking about,
then I would recommend avoiding the USCG websites as a source of conclusive
information. We'll try to answer questions about our own rules, not the
FCC's thank you.

Best,

jack


  #22   Report Post  
Larry W4CSC
 
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Rick wrote in
ink.net:

Jack Painter wrote:


I believe the thread has been dealing only with HF, where a license
is required. I operate under NTIA not FCC so I haven't had that issue
come up...but Larry certainly would on a sail yacht with licensed
equipment. I can say that the equipment is certainly different where
HF is concerned, but not as much fun as pinging your buddy's GPS with
your position and channel on VHF-DSC.


There is no requirement for a commercial radio operator's license to
carry or use an HF or a VHF set on a US recreational vessel. In the US
a restricted radio operator's permit and a ship station license is all
that is required to operate HF. If the recreational vessel makes no
international voyages then no license of any sort is required for
VHF/DSC installations or use.

Like I wrote earlier, just because a radio incorporates one of the
features that comprise part of a GMDSS suite does not mean that the
operator hold a GMDSS license.

Rick



The use of ANY HF equipment aboard ANY recreational boat DOES require a
Ship Station License, even if it's in a backyard pond....because the HF
station is INTERNATIONAL on any channel, as required by ITU.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/marine/gmdss.html


http://wireless.fcc.gov/marine/fctsht14.html
Another note of interest from this website:
"If your vessel requires licensing by the FCC after you have obtained an
MMSI from BoatUS, MariTEL or Sea Tow Service that MMSI cannot be used
during the application/licensing process when you file FCC Form 159 and 605
with the FCC. MMSIs issued by other authorized entities are valid only for
ship stations that do not have FCC-issued licenses. Since the ULS will not
accept the MMSI that was issued by another entity, you should not enter
anything in item 10 on FCC Form 605, Schedule B. Leave this field blank and
the FCC will issue you a new MMSI."

Boat/US MMSIs are useless with FCC licensed stations.....(sigh)

Also from this fctsht14 website is an answer about your unlicensed VHF
walkie talkie being used as a CB on the dock, home, car, etc.:
"MAY I USE MY HAND-HELD MARINE VHF RADIO ON LAND?

You must have a special license, called a marine utility station license,
to operate a hand-held marine radio from land -- a ship station license IS
NOT sufficient. You may apply for this license by filing FCC Form 601 with
the FCC. To be eligible for a marine utility station license, you must
generally provide some sort of service to ships or have control over a
bridge or waterway. Additionally, you must show a need to communicate using
hand-held portable equipment from both a ship and from coast locations.
Each unit must be capable of operation while being hand-carried by an
individual. The station operates under the rules applicable to ship
stations when the unit is aboard a ship, and under the rules applicable to
private coast stations when the unit is on land."

You CANNOT, legally, call your boat from your VHF marine radio on the
beach. You don't have a "Marine Utility License"....

As to the rules about the Commercial Operator's Licenses (GROL with GMDSS
operator's endorsement), the rules are on:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr13_00.html

You'll need, also, a copy of the maritime mobile radio service rules:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr80_00.html

Voluntary ship license operators under 400 W PEP (all the SSB radios at
150W PEP you guys have), need Restricted Radio Telephone Operator Permits
to operate VOICE on HF.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-
cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=80&SECTION=165&YEAR=2000&TYP E=TEXT

Now......about the GMDSS operator on your LICENSED SHIP STATION.....

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-
cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=80&SECTION=1073&YEAR=2000&TY PE=TEXT

IT says, and I quote:

"[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5, Parts 80 to End]
[Revised as of October 1, 2000]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR80.1073]

[Page 170-171]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 80--STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart W--Global Maritime Distress and Safety System (GMDSS)

Sec. 80.1073 Radio operator requirements for ship stations.

(a) Ships must carry at least two persons holding GMDSS Radio
Operator's Licenses as specified in Sec. 13.2 of this chapter for
distress and safety radiocommunications purposes. The GMDSS Radio
Operator's License qualifies personnel as GMDSS radio operator for the
purposes of operating GMDSS radio installation, including basic
equipment adjustments as denoted in knowledge requirements specified in
Sec. 13.21 of this chapter.
(1) One of the qualified GMDSS radio operators must be designated to
have

[[Page 171]]

primary responsiblility for radiocommunications during distress
incidents.
(2) A second qualified GMDSS radio operator must be designated as
backup for distress and safety radiocommunications.
(b) A qualified GMDSS radio operator, and a qualified backup, as
specified in paragraph (a) of this section must be:
(1) Available to act as the dedicated radio operator in cases of
distress as described in Sec. 80.1109(a);
(2) Designated to perform as part of normal routine each of the
applicable communications described in Sec. 80.1109(b);
(3) Responsible for selecting HF DSC guard channels and receiving
scheduled maritime safety information broadcasts;
(4) Designated to perform communications described in
Sec. 80.1109(c);
(5) Responsible for ensuring that the watches required by
Sec. 80.1123 are properly maintained; and
(6) Responsible for ensuring that the ship's navigation position is
entered, either manually or automatically through a navigation receiver,
into all installed DSC equipment at least every four hours while the
ship is underway."

Notice that NO PLEASURE BOAT exemptions of any kind exist for the casual
captain with an HF/SSB radio that has GMDSS/DSC radio equipment on the HF
bands (below 30 Mhz) with a Ship License, which is MANDATORY for every boat
with HF/SSB marine band equipment.

'Tis not to poopoo, "Oh, we don't need that because we are a little
sailboat with a GMDSS-equipped HF/SSB radio." By international agreement,
and ITU regulations, ALL GMDSS-EQUIPPED HF/SSB radios are REQUIRED to have,
not one, but TWO LICENSED GMDSS OPERATORS aboard, one of which is, and I
quote once again,

"Available to act as the dedicated radio operator in cases of
distress as described in Sec. 80.1109(a)"

No mention in the GMDSS regulations says anything about a casual "voluntary
ship" (your sailboat) being exempt that I can find. Please quote it if you
find it to enlighten us all.

In the GMDSS question section, it says:

"Can I use my current FCC operator license aboard GMDSS ships?

No. Any person who wants to become a GMDSS radio operator must pass a new
examination to receive the GMDSS license."

This would, also, include the yachtie with a Restricted Radio Telephone
Operator's Permit. GMDSS must NOT be operated by anyone UNTIL he has taken
the element exams for GMDSS operator and has that license in his hands.

Conclusion - Unless you are willing to go to this extreme, do NOT buy an
HF/SSB radio with GMDSS/DSC capabilities for your yacht. You cannot
operate it until two of you have GMDSS Operator Licenses.

Larry

Still interested in getting your GMDSS Operator's License? It's not rocket
science:

http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/do.html

Don't press the red button without it....(c;












  #23   Report Post  
Larry W4CSC
 
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"Jack Painter" wrote in
news:PxKGc.8284$pY2.2932@lakeread01:



Larry, all I could find was information regarding compulsory GMDSS
ships. Is there a listing you are aware of for voluntary-equipped
GMDSS? HF is the issue, of course ;-)

http://wireless.fcc.gov/marine/gmdss.html

Jack

See my long other post I just sent.....

There is no differences in voluntary and compulsory ships operating GMDSS
in any regulation I can find, except your voluntary ship isn't required to
have it in the first place.

If you want to operate it, you must comply with all the ship regulations
for it....TWO licensed GMDSS ops, REDUNDANT equipment and all!!

  #24   Report Post  
Larry W4CSC
 
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Rick wrote in
ink.net:

Jack Painter wrote:

Larry, all I could find was information regarding compulsory GMDSS
ships. Is there a listing you are aware of for voluntary-equipped
GMDSS? HF is the issue, of course ;-)


Unless Larry holds, and is required to hold, a current USCG license as
a merchant marine officer with an STCW certificate endorsed as a radio
operator he only holds the GMDSS tickets for ego purposes. No one else
needs one unless they work for a shorebased maintenance firm doing
work on GMDSS equipment on ships. He obviously doesn't understand the
GMDSS system concept and is posting nonsense.


You are posting the nonsense. See my other post and READ THE REGS I posted
there. You must NOT operate any GMDSS on a LICENSED SHIP STATION until you
have the GMDSS Operator's License, even if your boat is a goddamn rowboat!

You must also read the regulations to understand that you do NOT have to be
a STCW radio operator to be a licensed GMDSS operator. READ THE REGS in
references I posted to another responder.....it's all there.

The old unionized radio operators are now a dead issue once compulsory
ships get rid of their Morse equipment. Most ROs are not being renewed in
their cushy union jobs.


If you want reliable information that applies to you and your
particular circumstances just Google "gmdss voluntary station operator
license"

There are plenty of pages. Here is a link that pretty much states what
Larry would have known if he had any training and held the license for
anything other than some kind of redneck ham radio bragging rights:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/cvib-2.doc

Training, Licensing and Certification

The Master and all Mates on SOLAS vessels are now required to hold the
FCC GMDSS Radio Operator?s License (GOC) for Sea Areas A2, A3
(Inmarsat coverage), and A4 (polar regions) or the Restricted GMDSS
Radio Operator?s License (ROC) for operations in Sea Area A1. They
must also hold a Coast Guard STCW 95 GMDSS endorsement. The STCW
endorsement requires mandatory training and demonstrated ability to
operate all GMDSS systems. Most small commercial vessels are not
required to be STCW compliant, however, and are permitted to use any
GMDSS equipment without mandated GMDSS training. Small commercial
vessels mandated to carry radio for safety reasons are required to
hold a radio station license and the appropriate operator permits.
Vessels subject to the Bridge-to-Bridge act are also required to hold
a radio station license.


Old information. CG has turned GMDSS operator and maintainer licensing
over to the FCC. There's a reference to just this point on the FCC
webpages I quoted to another responder.

Larry
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Jack Painter
 
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"Larry W4CSC" wrote
"Jack Painter" wrote in
news:PxKGc.8284$pY2.2932@lakeread01:

Larry, all I could find was information regarding compulsory GMDSS
ships. Is there a listing you are aware of for voluntary-equipped
GMDSS? HF is the issue, of course ;-)


There is no differences in voluntary and compulsory ships operating GMDSS
in any regulation I can find, except your voluntary ship isn't required to
have it in the first place.

If you want to operate it, you must comply with all the ship regulations
for it....TWO licensed GMDSS ops, REDUNDANT equipment and all!!


Larry,

Noting the apparent lack of exception in FCC comments or rulemaking (and
they are indeed the authority on this subject, not the USCG as you pointed
out), there is nonetheless an interesting comment or two by the Ret. USCG
Capt, Chmn of the Implementaton Task Force at
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/rvib-4.doc which states in parts:

GMDSS AND THE RECREATIONAL BOATER 16 May 2002

The FCC action has thus begun a very gradual shift to DSC by requiring new
models of MF and VHF radios sold in the U.S. to have at least a simplified
DSC capability.

Recreational vessels are not required to use DSC in the MF/HF bands and may
continue to use non-DSC MF radios and make voice calls on 2182 kHz if they
hold the necessary Ship Station License issued by the FCC.

(there's a key no-exception point - whether by omission or not, we cannot
assume that no mention of license exception for GMDSS means that they might
have intended one - but it MAY be included in the new
no-questions-asked-all-equipment restricted operators license!)

The new DSC calling identity is the nine digit Maritime Mobile Service
Identity (MMSI) that is
assigned by the FCC to vessels desiring or required to use DSC in the VHF,
MF, and HF maritime radio bands. The way to get an MMSI number assigned is
to apply to the FCC for a radio station license. Station licenses are no
longer required for recreational vessels less that 65 feet in length
operating on VHF exclusively in U.S. waters

(another no-exception for HF GMDSS comment - looking more like they either
missed the boat on this part entirely, or they never meant to exempt it. It
remains confusing , which is in keeping with what I said about NavCenter et
al before.

Anyway, the new operator licenses do "imply" that any equipment volutarily
carried (radar, HF, VHF, etc) does NOT have to be listed, therefore no
license mods are required when equipment is added. THAT implies GMDSS could
be part of the license-suite w/o special GMDSS quals.It is an interesting
issue that salesman and yachtsman alike should be very clear on before
selling owning or operating the equipment.

Jack




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Jack Painter
 
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Default GMDSS any type


"Larry W4CSC" wrote
There is no differences in voluntary and compulsory ships operating GMDSS
in any regulation I can find, except your voluntary ship isn't required to
have it in the first place.

If you want to operate it, you must comply with all the ship regulations
for it....TWO licensed GMDSS ops, REDUNDANT equipment and all!!


Larry and group:

The same task force letter I quoted from 1992 says:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/rvib-4.doc

False Alerts in GMDSS Systems
/cut/
Compulsory ships are required to carry certified GMDSS operators but
recreational vessels are permitted to use any GMDSS system appropriate for
their operations without any operator qualification.

Since the large percentage of false alerts is attributed to a lack of
operator competence, it is especially important that recreational boaters
receive instruction in the proper operation of GMDSS equipment

Looks pretty clear there - but that is not an authoritatve document of any
kind, just advisory in nature by the Task Force for GMDSS Implementation.
The FCC would be expected to act on those recomendations accordingly, and
may or may not have done so by now. The USCG Auxiliary and US Power
Squadrons are expected by this task force to develop and make instruction
available on GMDSS systems for recreational vessels.

Jack


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Rick
 
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Larry W4CSC wrote:

There is no differences in voluntary and compulsory ships operating GMDSS
in any regulation I can find, except your voluntary ship isn't required to
have it in the first place.

If you want to operate it, you must comply with all the ship regulations
for it....TWO licensed GMDSS ops, REDUNDANT equipment and all!!


I don't know what you have been smoking but you have strange ideas about
radio regs on ships and pleasure boats.

Do you have a GMDSS license of any sort? The FCC seems to think otherwise.

Rick

  #28   Report Post  
Rick
 
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Larry W4CSC wrote:

You are posting the nonsense. See my other post and READ THE REGS I posted
there. You must NOT operate any GMDSS on a LICENSED SHIP STATION until you
have the GMDSS Operator's License, even if your boat is a goddamn rowboat!


Sorry, larry, you missed again. Read the regs or talk to a West Marine
salesman. They know more than you do.

You must also read the regulations to understand that you do NOT have to be
a STCW radio operator to be a licensed GMDSS operator. READ THE REGS in
references I posted to another responder.....it's all there.


If you don't sail as a licensed officer on a ship that requires a GMDSS
installation by international treaty and stand a bridge watch, you do
not need a GMDSS license. If you want to repair GMDSS equipment you need
a maintainer's license. If you are a watchstanding officer who is
required by the Coast Guard to hold a GMDSS license you must also have a
GMDSS endorsement on your STCW certificate.

Any fool can get a GMDSS license, very few NEED one.

The old unionized radio operators are now a dead issue once compulsory
ships get rid of their Morse equipment. Most ROs are not being renewed in
their cushy union jobs.


A little bit jealous are you?

Old information. CG has turned GMDSS operator and maintainer licensing
over to the FCC. There's a reference to just this point on the FCC
webpages I quoted to another responder.


If you knew anything about GMDSS you would know that the FCC has always
handled the licensing. The CG is charge with enforcing the IMO
regulations that established the GMDSS requirements for SOLAS vessels.

And the FCC still doesn't seem to list you as anything other than a ham
radio operator. That would explain why you seem so confused about this
issue.

Rick

  #29   Report Post  
Rick
 
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Jack Painter wrote:

Anyway, the new operator licenses do "imply" that any equipment volutarily
carried (radar, HF, VHF, etc) does NOT have to be listed, therefore no
license mods are required when equipment is added. THAT implies GMDSS could
be part of the license-suite w/o special GMDSS quals.It is an interesting
issue that salesman and yachtsman alike should be very clear on before
selling owning or operating the equipment.


An MMSI is an integral part of DSC and the GMDSS, it is kind of hard to
work without a unique indentifier and any vessel will get one for the
asking, licensed, cumpulsory, voluntary, or just a Bayliner with a VHF
DSC unit on an inland lake in Kansas. It will hardly be a Global system
if all vessels are not similarly equipped and any requirement for
commercial licensing would negate all of the benefits of such a valuable
system as GMDSS.

There is no requirement by the FCC or the CG for an operator to hold an
FCC license to operate GMDSS equipment on noncompulsary vessels.

For vessels which are compelled by IMO regulations to carry GMDSS
equipment there is a parallel requirement that watchtstanding officers
aretrained and certified as GMDSS operators. That training is documented
by an endorsement on the officer's STCW certificate.

There are no such rules for pleasure boaters regardless of the type of
equipment installed.

Larry has no clue what he is talking about. The FCC, the only American
authority to issue GMDSS licenses does not list him as a licensed
operator other than in the amateur radio service.

Rick

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Jack Painter
 
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Default MMSI


"Rick" wrote
An MMSI is an integral part of DSC and the GMDSS, it is kind of hard to
work without a unique indentifier and any vessel will get one for the
asking, licensed, cumpulsory, voluntary, or just a Bayliner with a VHF
DSC unit on an inland lake in Kansas. It will hardly be a Global system
if all vessels are not similarly equipped and any requirement for
commercial licensing would negate all of the benefits of such a valuable
system as GMDSS.


Rick,

Unfortunately, the entire database maintained by BoatUS/West etc turned out
to be useless. It was a great idea and encouraged boaters to be instantly
registered with an MMSI. But that database went nowhere and is of no use to
a Rescue Coordination Center. I do not know what went wrong with that plan,
but only the FCC issued MMSI are considered international, and we certainly
can't maintain dual-systems. If a boater already has a BoatUS MMSI they
should apply to the FCC for a new one.

Jack


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