See Below.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Jack Painter" wrote in message
news:9FVnc.35337$pJ1.22538@lakeread02...

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
My solution to my situation was to send an email to a friend who
then called Vessel Assist. Assistance was there 45 minutes later.
This is after trying for 2 hours to raise the CG or CGA just to be
told that they would talk to me on SSB.

Yep, that's unsat. But it would have helped to pursue it at the time, as I
think you would have received an apology and explanation at the time. I
wouldn't make the generalization that that bad experience certainly
deserved
for it's event.

What is "unsat"? I suppose I am just venting my frustration at my one
and only experience where I needed help.


A few comments below.

answered below


Doug
s/v Callista

"Jack Painter" wrote in message
news:JsTnc.35319$pJ1.1691@lakeread02...
"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Hummm. Last time needed help and was out of VHF range I was
never able to raise any USCG station on marine SSB. When I did
finally get within range of a VHF CG station (very poor signal). I
asked
if I could switch to an SSB frequency for better communications. I
was
told that USCG no longer monitored Marine SSB, so it was poor
VHF or nothing. A few comments below.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience with USCG communications.
HF
propagation is, as you know better than most, is never a sure thing,
especially from long distance, low power, solar activity and other
interference. But we do the very best possible 24/7 to maintain the
best
HF
coverage of any agency in the world from the USCG communication
stations.

I'm aware of propagation issues. My dissapointment was when I finally
got
tenuous VHF contact with the CG and asked if there was an SSB freq I
could
contact them on, they said NO. They did not support SSB. My distance at
that time was maybe 30 miles just off the coast of Jupiter Inlet.

Covered above, but since you gave specifics I can inquire as far as
current
capability goes.


When the T/V Bow Mariner exploded and sank, they put out one Mayday on
2182
USB.

They were lucky. I tried to call the CG on 2182 when I couldn't raise
them on VHF. No answer.

Four instant replies not usually considered "luck"! I happened to be on
watch that evening.

I can't really respond to that. I supose that everyone was sleeping
at 4AM

Four USCG Groups from Newport RI to Charleston SC answered it almost
simulataneously. It has been and continues to be monitored at every
USCG
Group. CAMSLANT CHEASPEAKE (Virginia), where I work, monitors several
listed
SSB maritime band guard frequencies and will assist any mariner on
them
(We
do not monitor 2182, Groups do that). CAMSPAC PT REYES in California
does
the same for Pacific traffic. If you made a call on one of those
guarded
frequencies, and you believe your radio worked, and it was not
answered,
you
should make a report to the USCG about it.

Right, filing a report will make everything work. How about if I file a
report
about the ICW shoaling up

That is funny. But,

I never stopped writing my Congressmen when I joined the Navy, and I
haven't
stopped now. The difference is, twenty years later, now I know them all
pretty well.

And I thought Sen. Byrd was old Here in the Peoples Republic of Maryland,
our congressmen don't respond well to their constituents. That is unless
it is related to keeping Government contractors employeed or the union
vote on their side.


If a mariner cannot obtain good
copy from one of the many guarded SSB maritime channels, I sure don't
know
why the odds would be better on a circuit they are not authorized to
use
_except in an emergency_, as they would not know the times guarded,
direction or location antennas pointed, etc.

Well, if I can't raise anyone on the channels the are "guarded", then I
should just
pack it in and give up rather than try using another channel that may
be
illegal in a non-emergency situation. So if I can't get help from USCG
or
USCGA then I should just drift along.

If you are authorized to modify
a radio, I'm sure you would try that route, but it is not legal advice
to
give to the general boating public, including commercial craft to
modify
or
illegally operate SSB radios.

Now that is precious. Since when is it illegal to advise someone. It is
only illegal when someone violates the law. And as I said earlier, many
ham rigs are type accepted for marine SSB use. I have the Rules and Regs
here. Please advise me on where it says that giving advise is illegal.

Well Doug, I'm probably being a little more cautious than you are, but
some
and I'm sure you are one, would understand that even if giving advice to
commit an act that might be illegal for a large class of people "might"
not
result in prosecution of the [sic] free advice giver, it could nonetheless
get you in a lot of trouble via various civil and social remedies. If
however it was a professional paid opinion, or even free advice from a
professional who knows or should no better, to advise on accomplishing or
carrying out an illegal act may certainly be a punishable offense. Since
you
clearly know the law pretty well, and are a licensed Radio Operartor for
both Marine and Amateur, you see my point.

My point is that in an emergency, THERE ARE NO LAWS when it comes
to use of the radio when trying to obtain help. Now, there is a gray area
in exactly what constitutes an "emergency". When I was an actively flying
pilot, one could declare an emergency if they personally felt they were in
trouble. They may not have actually been in as much trouble as they may
have thought, but it is the pilot's judgement. Of course, a report had to be
filed after the fact and some amount of review was done to determine if the
declaration was valid. Very rarely was a pilot called to task. I suspect the
same sort of scheme is in place for nautical vessels as well.

As I have said before, many if not most ham rigs are now type accepted
for marine SSB use. No illegal mods, no illegal operation. Older equipment
is different, so those using older modified rigs are probably aware of the
risk (although none really exists).

Best,

Jack


Tracking down abuse from commercial fishermen
is easier than some might think, and when they operate on government
curcuits they are prosecuted.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/default.htm has all the
information
about maritime SSB guard frequencies and other means of communications
for
emergencies at sea.

I'll check it out.

As to why the license which is good for ten years to life, depending
on
class and type, could cost $150, that's not something we can do
anything
about, unless you think your Congressman would lobby the FCC to change
it.

It's not good for 10 years to life. It is good for 10 years period.
Although
the yearly rate is fair, the lump sum up front cost turns many off and
so
they just don't bother to get it. FCC licensing is inconsistent at best.
I
didn't
have to pay a penny to get any of my ham licenses, my GROL, or GMDSS/M,
but I have to pay for a ship's station license. Go figure.

Hope this was some help,

73's

Jack Painter
USCG Auxiliary
Virginia Beach, Va


"Jack Painter" wrote in message
news:gkDnc.34930$pJ1.10709@lakeread02...
Hi Doug,

Yes I'm aware that a licensed Amateur Radio operator can build and
modify
equipment with the proper class license.

I beleive any license class is acceptable.

We rely on your expertise and
abilities in communication emergencies. I am the Emergency
Readiness
Coordinator for the USCG Auxiliary Division 5, Port of Hampton
Roads,
Va,
and we utilize all available agencies and volunteers in an
emergency.
What
is bad practice though, is to encourage anyone to modify
communications
equipment which as you know, is permitted only under very limited
circumstances and could not therefore be acceptable for general
use
in
emergency communications. If you can't do it legally, can't test
it,
can't
tune it, and can't practice with it, you shouldn't have been
encouraged
to
consider such equipment as part of your planning for emergencies.

There are several ham rigs on the market now that are type accepted
for
marine SSB use. The mods are legal and operating them on the marine
SSB frequencies is legal. The SGC SG-2000 was the first one to be
granted type acceptance, but I'm pretty sure that several others are
now accepted.

Responsible sailors can easily get a license for SSB marine
operations

So can irresponsible sailors. If they want to encourage sailors to
get
the license, why charge $150 for it?

and
learn how to contact the USCG and other monitoring agencies,
including
commercial and volunteer watchstanders on authorized SSB marine
bands.
I
work in this field for USCG HF communications, and we are happy to
provide
assistance to boaters in this matter.

Well as I said earlier, the only time I was in an emergency
situation,
I
got
absolutely nowhere with marine SSB.

Best regards,

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Va


"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Fortunately, ham radio is not under the same rules as marine
SSB when it comes to modifications. Type accepted marine gear
cannot
be modified but ham gear can. I can build my own rig if I want
to
and I am not violating any law unless have emmisions that are in
violation to those specified (freq, spurious radiation,
harmonics,
etc).
In other words, I can't violate the law unless I transmit.
If you look closer at the rules, all rules are suspended in an
emergency.
So transmitting on a modified rig is not illegal in an
emergency.

As far as having a cheap rig on board, that is a personal
choice.
I
have
cruised with many that don't have an SSB.

Doug (That is my real name)
s/v Callista

"Jack Painter" wrote in message
news:fgCnc.34527$pJ1.28623@lakeread02...
Gee, how do you really feel about it? Nice language. Those of
us
whose
parents were married don't talk that way. And we don't hide
behind
phony
internet ID's.

Anyone thinking about unauthorized mods to a SSB radio can
write
me
and
I
will be glad to find a local representative in your area where
you
can
have
the law explained to you in person.

"master" try to teach his only mate, a totally
inexperienced
girl,
how
to
raise the mainsail while he headed them out into 10'
rollers
in
a
25kt
NE

That's poor judgement, and good sailors have no problem
understanding
this.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, VA

"santacruz" wrote in message
...
I'm not normally rude to ****heads like you - but you're not
answering
his question. You must be another ****ing Bush Republican.

It is perfectly legal to modify ham radios so they can
transmit
on
marine SSB freq's in an emergency.

Go ask your Mother - she'll confirm this.

BTW - 25 knots and 10 ft seas in a 38' boat is just exciting
sailing.
We get that frequently between Long Beach and Catalina - and
it's
great fast sailing.




On Sun, 9 May 2004 01:13:45 -0400, "Jack Painter"

wrote:

"Eric" wrote in message
. com...
I am looking for an inexpensive tranceiver for my
sailboat.I
am
rapidly running out of money and need a cheap reliable
rig.I
have
just
insulated my backstay(37 feet).aAny ideas? Thanks,Eric.

Eric,

Your somewhat typical request elcited somewhat typical
replies
so
far.

Maybe it's helpful to you to get an answer to that
question,
but
I
think
you're attitude is likely to cost someone's life, probably
your
own.
If
you
really think getting a "cheap reliable rig" as you are now
"rapidly
running
out of money" is the acceptable order of things before an
offshore
excursion, you are an accident waiting to happen. Well
meaning
but
improper
advice from the group comes complete with telling you it's
easy
to
break
the
law, and encouraging you to do so. These legal eagles
really
believe
that
so
long as you later have an emergency (assured in your case
Eric),
you
didn't
break any law. They are wrong, as are your priorities.
Instead
of
compounding your mistakes with their bad advice, your whole
sailing
experience would be more enjoyable and safer if you would
learn
some
simple
safe boating practices. Then you would be more likely to
prevent
the
need
for cheap radios you are not licensed or trained to use, as
well
as
understand the fallacy of advice to believe in illegal
operation
as
a
saving
grace to other inadequacies.

I recommend you take some seamanship, communications and
other
safe
boating
courses offered by the United States Power Squadrons and
United
States
Coast
Guard Auxiliary via your nearest marina or boating center.
Then
you
could
be
safely enjoying the water and able to help others do the
same
instead
of
learning to break the law and operating recklessly from a
vessel
and
crew
of
uncertain capabilities. Like the 38' sloop we saw today -
watching
her
"master" try to teach his only mate, a totally
inexperienced
girl,
how
to
raise the mainsail while he headed them out into 10'
rollers
in
a
25kt
NE
under small craft warnings this morning. I wonder if he was
confident
that
his illegally modifed "cheap" SSB radio could have raised
us.
It
would
fit
the bill.

Sincerely,

Jack Painter
USCG Auxiliary
Virginia Beach, Va

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...

My solution to my situation was to send an email to a friend who
then called Vessel Assist. Assistance was there 45 minutes later.
This is after trying for 2 hours to raise the CG or CGA just to be
told that they would talk to me on SSB.

Yep, that's unsat. But it would have helped to pursue it at the time, as
I
think you would have received an apology and explanation at the time. I
wouldn't make the generalization that that bad experience certainly
deserved
for it's event.

What is "unsat"? I suppose I am just venting my frustration at my one
and only experience where I needed help.

Sorry, it means "Unsatisifactory" (performance).

My point is that in an emergency, THERE ARE NO LAWS when it comes
to use of the radio when trying to obtain help. Now, there is a gray area
in exactly what constitutes an "emergency". When I was an actively flying
pilot, one could declare an emergency if they personally felt they were in
trouble. They may not have actually been in as much trouble as they may
have thought, but it is the pilot's judgement. Of course, a report had to
be
filed after the fact and some amount of review was done to determine if
the
declaration was valid. Very rarely was a pilot called to task. I suspect
the
same sort of scheme is in place for nautical vessels as well.

Doug, we never disagreed there in the least. My comments were about an act
related to the preplanning for an emergency that does not exist at the time.

Best,

Jack

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Yep, that's unsat. But it would have helped to pursue it at the time, as
I
think you would have received an apology and explanation at the time. I
wouldn't make the generalization that that bad experience certainly
deserved
for it's event.

What is "unsat"? I suppose I am just venting my frustration at my one
and only experience where I needed help.

Sorry, unsat = Unstatisfactory (performance).

My point is that in an emergency, THERE ARE NO LAWS when it comes
to use of the radio when trying to obtain help. Now, there is a gray area
in exactly what constitutes an "emergency". When I was an actively flying
pilot, one could declare an emergency if they personally felt they were in
trouble. They may not have actually been in as much trouble as they may
have thought, but it is the pilot's judgement. Of course, a report had to
be
filed after the fact and some amount of review was done to determine if
the
declaration was valid. Very rarely was a pilot called to task. I suspect
the
same sort of scheme is in place for nautical vessels as well.

Doug, we never disagreed on that at all. My comments were about the an act
that involved presumption of a future, non-existent emergency.

Best,

Jack

Doug, we never disagreed on that at all. My comments were about the an act
that involved presumption of a future, non-existent emergency.

You have really lost me now. I prefer to base my plans on a future
possability of a very real emergency.

I am very glad I am a ham. The safety it affords me is far greater than
any provided by the CG or CGA with regard to contacting someone to
dispatch help. Once the CG is contacted then their assistence is some
of the best in the world. Close to shore, the towing services are excellent.
In my case, I sent an email via Winlink to a station in Dallas, that message
was forwarded to my friend in Baltimore who called Vessel Assist. 30
minutes later I was contacted on VHF that they were in-transit, 15 or 30
minutes later they were there. That's hard to beat.

Best,

Jack

Doug, let's drop the semantics. Something you plan for in case it happens in
the future is imaginary, it is not real and it does not exist, no matter how
well you pretend it is. Of course we plan for emergencies, but when you
advise the general public to commit an act on the presumption that something
will happen in the future to make it legal, you're too far out on a limb for
me.

Jack

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Doug, we never disagreed on that at all. My comments were about the an
act
that involved presumption of a future, non-existent emergency.

You have really lost me now. I prefer to base my plans on a future
possability of a very real emergency.

I am very glad I am a ham. The safety it affords me is far greater than
any provided by the CG or CGA with regard to contacting someone to
dispatch help. Once the CG is contacted then their assistence is some
of the best in the world. Close to shore, the towing services are
excellent.
In my case, I sent an email via Winlink to a station in Dallas, that
message
was forwarded to my friend in Baltimore who called Vessel Assist. 30
minutes later I was contacted on VHF that they were in-transit, 15 or 30
minutes later they were there. That's hard to beat.

Best,

Jack

That's OK, it's nice and peacefull out here on my limb without you
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. HEY! There's
no beer out here.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Jack Painter" wrote in message
news:Xiioc.35883$pJ1.2100@lakeread02...
Doug, let's drop the semantics. Something you plan for in case it happens
in
the future is imaginary, it is not real and it does not exist, no matter
how
well you pretend it is. Of course we plan for emergencies, but when you
advise the general public to commit an act on the presumption that
something
will happen in the future to make it legal, you're too far out on a limb
for
me.

Jack

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
Doug, we never disagreed on that at all. My comments were about the an
act
that involved presumption of a future, non-existent emergency.

You have really lost me now. I prefer to base my plans on a future
possability of a very real emergency.

I am very glad I am a ham. The safety it affords me is far greater than
any provided by the CG or CGA with regard to contacting someone to
dispatch help. Once the CG is contacted then their assistence is some
of the best in the world. Close to shore, the towing services are
excellent.
In my case, I sent an email via Winlink to a station in Dallas, that
message
was forwarded to my friend in Baltimore who called Vessel Assist. 30
minutes later I was contacted on VHF that they were in-transit, 15 or 30
minutes later they were there. That's hard to beat.

Best,

Jack

With all this talk about inability to raise USCG on HF SSB let me relate my
experiences in two high seas emergencies. I was aboard a commercial tuna boat
fishing between Midway Island and Japan. In the first incident a boat nearby
had a crewman whose hand got caught in machinery and was severely mangled. Too
far for helo medivac so what was needed was emergency medical advice and
clearance to put the injured guy ashore at Midway, several days away. No answer
to calls to USCG on 2182, 4125 etc. Although I am not a ham, I broke into a net
on 20 meters and was answered by a guy named Danny in New Guinea. He
immediately phone patched through to an emergency room doctor in the US who
gave hours of guidance on how to treat the hand and save it. He also contacted
the CG who got the Navy to give clearance for a Midway landing. The next
incident was a very very weak mayday I heard on some 8 MHz marine channel. The
distressed vessel could not hear me nor was it heard by anyone else. It was a
fishing vessel about 200 miles from Hawaii and it had suffered a major engine
room fire. It was taking on water and had no power for pumps. I got the vessel
name and position thank goodness. All calls to USCG went unanswered. In
desperation I finally tuned up on 11179 USB and called a Mayday Relay. I was
anwered by a Marine Corps C 130 air refueling tanker call sign QB 0x? which was
flying off southern Calif. The radio op on the plane was really sharp and in no
time had relayed all the info to the USCG. The boat was saved, no lives lost.
The lesson? Use all your resources, know HF aircraft freqs, etc. Know ham
bands. Hams are generally very helpful in a true emergency. 5696 USB is a USCG
aircraft channel. Its a good one to have in your freq list. Listen to it, there
is almost always some traffic on it if you listen for 15 or 20 min. BTW, all
the calls were made on an "illegal" Drake TR 7 modified to operate anywhere
between 1.5 and 30 MHz. Our "legal" SSB was crystal controlled controlled and
had only official ITU marine channels.

"BOEING377" without a name, wrote

With all this talk about inability to raise USCG on HF SSB let me relate
my
experiences in two high seas emergencies. I was aboard a commercial tuna
boat
fishing between Midway Island and Japan. In the first incident a boat
nearby
had a crewman whose hand got caught in machinery and was severely mangled.
Too
far for helo medivac so what was needed was emergency medical advice and
clearance to put the injured guy ashore at Midway, several days away. No
answer
to calls to USCG on 2182, 4125 etc.

That's an unreasonable expectation to assume the USCG would hear a small
boat between Midway and Japan on HF, which is far from our area of
responsibilty. You're on your own out in waters like that, and 2182 or 4125
are for 20-200 mile coverage. Higher frequencies as you used to call someone
nearer to your locaton, are certainly better for long haul comms.

Although I am not a ham, I broke into a net
on 20 meters and was answered by a guy named Danny in New Guinea. He
immediately phone patched through to an emergency room doctor in the US
who
gave hours of guidance on how to treat the hand and save it

Thanks for the heads up that there are no Hospitals on the island of New
Guinea!

The lesson? Use all your resources, know HF aircraft freqs, etc. Know
ham
bands. Hams are generally very helpful in a true emergency. 5696 USB is a
USCG
aircraft channel. Its a good one to have in your freq list. Listen to it,
there
is almost always some traffic on it if you listen for 15 or 20 min. BTW,
all
the calls were made on an "illegal" Drake TR 7 modified to operate
anywhere
between 1.5 and 30 MHz. Our "legal" SSB was crystal controlled controlled
and
had only official ITU marine channels.

The lesson should be how unreliable HF voice communication is from a small
boat in the middle of nowhere. There were certainly better options available
to a commercial fishing vessel, or anyone who chooses to be a thousand miles
from civilization.

Other legal choices for boaters with only HF voice would be:

http://www.mmsn.org/ Maritime Mobile Net (14.300 mhz)

and from that group:
Other Maritime Nets

Baja California Net
7.238 MHz - Daily at 1600UTC
California to Caribbean
14.285 MHz. - Mondays at 2300 UTC
California to South Pacific
14.285 MHz. - Mondays at 2310 UTC
Caribbean Maritime Mobile Net
7.241 MHz. - Daily at 1100 UTC
Caribbean Net
7.158 MHz. - Daily at 0000 UTC
Chubasco Net
7.294 MHz. - Daily at 1530 UTC
Confusion Net
14.305 MHz. - Monday thru Friday at 1900 UTC
DDD Net-Pacific for Canada
14.115 MHz. - Daily at 0400 UTC
14.115 MHz. - Daily at 1730 UTC
Mariana Net
14.340 MHz. - Monday thru Saturday at 1900 UTC
Mariana-Guam
14.310 MHz. - Daily at 0700 UTC
Maritime Emergency Net
14.310 MHz. - Daily at 0400
14.303mhz. - Daily at 1800 UTC
Mississauga Maritime Net
14.122.5 MHz. - Daily at 1245 UTC
Waterway Radio & Cruising Club Net
7.268 MHz. - Daily at 07:45 ET
West Coast Admirals Maritime Mobile Net
7.190 MHz. - Daily at 2230

Caribbean Maritime Mobile Net

http://www.mayaparadise.com/mmfreq1.htm

The TransAtlantic Net: Held daily at 1300 GMT on 21.400. Net controller is
8P6QM - Trudi, assisted by G4FTO - Rudi and VE3AGS - George and others.
Weather on the half hour, and third party traffic where legal.

The U.K. MM Net: Held twice a day at 0800 and 1800 GMT on 14.303 +/- QRM.
Morning Net controller is G4FRN - Bill and in the evening you will find
G4YZH - Bruce, G0IAD - Tony or G4FTO - Rudi and others

The Pacific Maritime Mobile Service Net; on daily; 21412MHz at 2200 to
2300GMT. This is our 18th year on this Freq. Dr. Ernie, VE3EGM, is one of
our relay stations. Thanks, 73, Bob Corbin N2RSM

The Pacific Maritime Mobile Service Net; on daily; 21412MHz at 2200 to
2300GMT. This is our 18th year on this Freq. Dr. Ernie, VE3EGM, is one of
our relay stations. Thanks, 73, Bob Corbin N2RSM

DDD Net The DDD Net operates on a daily basis, frequency is 14.115mHz and
the warm up time is approx 0330z going formal at 0400z. We have relays in
Tasmania - VK7PR, Peter
New Zealand - ZL1ATE, Tony; ZL2FS, Jim and ZL1UE, Malcolm
Alberta - VE6LS, Al in Edmonton
Vancouver Island - VE7CZN, Jim and VE7KON, Ken.
Phone patch is available( where legal) and traffic is forwarded by Email (as
available). Info from Peter Thomas, VE7PT

This is just a sample, there are many others.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Va