I'll have to look into this further. The few times my thermal
switches have activated, they have served to stall the blades
rather than to let them freewheel as I recall. But if
I recall correctly, pulling the mill out of the wind with a string
has been a standard technique for many products for a
long time.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
9.17...
The following is a log from 3/13/2004 regarding a failure that I had
with my KISS wind generator. While I own one, and generally think that
they're very good, they do have definate problems.

-- Geoff

*****************************

I just experienced a failure of my KISS wind generator of a nature that
I've been worried about for quite some time. The KISS generator has a
thermal breaker on each of the 3 outputs of the generator. These open
when the generator is getting too hot by generating too much power. This
sounds OK in principle, but the problem is that when the breakers open,
the blades freewheel at a very high rate of speed. The power curves that
KISS supplies shows the generator producing 18 A at 20 Kts and 25 A at
25 Kts. However, there's nothing in their literature which shows the
maximum sustainable power output.

A switch, located between the generator wiring and the connections to
the battery provides a method of feathering the generator by shorting
the outputs to ground or each other. In winds of less than 25 kts this
typically causes the blades to spin at a very slow rate of speed.
However, once the thermal breakers have tripped, this switch does
nothing. To me this is a serious design flaw. The system should feather
itself instead of letting the blades freewheel.

I first noticed this on the trip from FL to Guatemala last summer. I had
just installed it and was quite surprised when it wouldn't feather in a
squall that blew through. I contacted the US KISS distributor about
this, and their response was that I should take a boat hook and use it
to pull the generator sideways into the wind via a string that goes from
the tail of the generator to the support pole. Yeah, that's a great
concept until you're at sea with the boat pitching all over the place
and probably a lot of other things going wrong at the same time.

Today we've been at anchor at Lighthouse Reef in Belize with a cold
front blowing through. The winds have been in the 15 to 25 kt range all
day. This morning the breakers tripped twice when the winds gusted over
30 for brief periods of time. Each time I was able to grab the string
and swing it around to feather it. This afternoon the winds have been in
the 15-20 kt range and the breakers have tripped twice. We were only
generating about 17 amps sustained when this happened. The second time I
was pulling the generator around when the string got caught in a blade
and yanked the boat hook into the tail, snapping it off. I suppose that
this is a lot better than having the boat hook strike a spinning blade
and potentially impale me, but I'm not happy at all.

While in general I am happy with the KISS generator's simplicity, I
think that this is a serious design problem which poses a substantial
safety risk. If you're thinking about getting one, consider this fact
before buying.

On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:04:44 -0400, "Doug Dotson"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
uncap my header address to reply via email

I am not up with this from a boat point of view, but I would have
thought that either angling the tail if the mill so that it
self-slowed as the breeze became stronger, or using the tail to brake
the blades, would have been simple enough. It's been done on pump
mills for a long time.

Another opion would be _literally_ feathering the the blades, so that
they are not spinning, if the heat cutout cuts in?

I can see why the heat cutout needs to let the genset open and allow
freewheel, rather than close and stop it. Short circuit generates
large currents and little roatation for cooling, and could make things
worse.

I'll have to look into this further. The few times my thermal
switches have activated, they have served to stall the blades
rather than to let them freewheel as I recall. But if
I recall correctly, pulling the mill out of the wind with a string
has been a standard technique for many products for a
long time.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
99.17...
The following is a log from 3/13/2004 regarding a failure that I had
with my KISS wind generator. While I own one, and generally think that
they're very good, they do have definate problems.

-- Geoff

*****************************

I just experienced a failure of my KISS wind generator of a nature that
I've been worried about for quite some time. The KISS generator has a
thermal breaker on each of the 3 outputs of the generator. These open
when the generator is getting too hot by generating too much power. This
sounds OK in principle, but the problem is that when the breakers open,
the blades freewheel at a very high rate of speed. The power curves that
KISS supplies shows the generator producing 18 A at 20 Kts and 25 A at
25 Kts. However, there's nothing in their literature which shows the
maximum sustainable power output.

A switch, located between the generator wiring and the connections to
the battery provides a method of feathering the generator by shorting
the outputs to ground or each other. In winds of less than 25 kts this
typically causes the blades to spin at a very slow rate of speed.
However, once the thermal breakers have tripped, this switch does
nothing. To me this is a serious design flaw. The system should feather
itself instead of letting the blades freewheel.

I first noticed this on the trip from FL to Guatemala last summer. I had
just installed it and was quite surprised when it wouldn't feather in a
squall that blew through. I contacted the US KISS distributor about
this, and their response was that I should take a boat hook and use it
to pull the generator sideways into the wind via a string that goes from
the tail of the generator to the support pole. Yeah, that's a great
concept until you're at sea with the boat pitching all over the place
and probably a lot of other things going wrong at the same time.

Today we've been at anchor at Lighthouse Reef in Belize with a cold
front blowing through. The winds have been in the 15 to 25 kt range all
day. This morning the breakers tripped twice when the winds gusted over
30 for brief periods of time. Each time I was able to grab the string
and swing it around to feather it. This afternoon the winds have been in
the 15-20 kt range and the breakers have tripped twice. We were only
generating about 17 amps sustained when this happened. The second time I
was pulling the generator around when the string got caught in a blade
and yanked the boat hook into the tail, snapping it off. I suppose that
this is a lot better than having the boat hook strike a spinning blade
and potentially impale me, but I'm not happy at all.

While in general I am happy with the KISS generator's simplicity, I
think that this is a serious design problem which poses a substantial
safety risk. If you're thinking about getting one, consider this fact
before buying.


************************************************** *****
Sometimes in a workplace you find snot on the wall of
the toilet cubicles. You feel "What sort of twisted
child would do this?"....the internet seems full of
them. It's very sad

Comments below.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:04:44 -0400, "Doug Dotson"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
uncap my header address to reply via email

I am not up with this from a boat point of view, but I would have
thought that either angling the tail if the mill so that it
self-slowed as the breeze became stronger, or using the tail to brake
the blades, would have been simple enough. It's been done on pump
mills for a long time.

That is true. But you are correct that it hasn't been offered for marine
units.
Several units for teresteral use have this feature. Bergey, African
Windpower,
etc.

Another opion would be _literally_ feathering the the blades, so that
they are not spinning, if the heat cutout cuts in?

Feathering in the sense of varying blade pitch is expensive and
mechanically intensive. Ie expensive!

I can see why the heat cutout needs to let the genset open and allow
freewheel, rather than close and stop it. Short circuit generates
large currents and little roatation for cooling, and could make things
worse.

Not really if it is done right. Letting the mill freewheel is the worse
possible scenario in terms of danger to the crew and destroying
the mill. The high currents can be handled and since the time to slow
the mill is fairly short, thermal issues are not extreme.

I'll have to look into this further. The few times my thermal
switches have activated, they have served to stall the blades
rather than to let them freewheel as I recall. But if
I recall correctly, pulling the mill out of the wind with a string
has been a standard technique for many products for a
long time.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
99.17...
The following is a log from 3/13/2004 regarding a failure that I had
with my KISS wind generator. While I own one, and generally think that
they're very good, they do have definate problems.

-- Geoff

*****************************

I just experienced a failure of my KISS wind generator of a nature that
I've been worried about for quite some time. The KISS generator has a
thermal breaker on each of the 3 outputs of the generator. These open
when the generator is getting too hot by generating too much power.
This
sounds OK in principle, but the problem is that when the breakers open,
the blades freewheel at a very high rate of speed. The power curves
that
KISS supplies shows the generator producing 18 A at 20 Kts and 25 A at
25 Kts. However, there's nothing in their literature which shows the
maximum sustainable power output.

A switch, located between the generator wiring and the connections to
the battery provides a method of feathering the generator by shorting
the outputs to ground or each other. In winds of less than 25 kts this
typically causes the blades to spin at a very slow rate of speed.
However, once the thermal breakers have tripped, this switch does
nothing. To me this is a serious design flaw. The system should feather
itself instead of letting the blades freewheel.

I first noticed this on the trip from FL to Guatemala last summer. I
had
just installed it and was quite surprised when it wouldn't feather in a
squall that blew through. I contacted the US KISS distributor about
this, and their response was that I should take a boat hook and use it
to pull the generator sideways into the wind via a string that goes
from
the tail of the generator to the support pole. Yeah, that's a great
concept until you're at sea with the boat pitching all over the place
and probably a lot of other things going wrong at the same time.

Today we've been at anchor at Lighthouse Reef in Belize with a cold
front blowing through. The winds have been in the 15 to 25 kt range all
day. This morning the breakers tripped twice when the winds gusted over
30 for brief periods of time. Each time I was able to grab the string
and swing it around to feather it. This afternoon the winds have been
in
the 15-20 kt range and the breakers have tripped twice. We were only
generating about 17 amps sustained when this happened. The second time
I
was pulling the generator around when the string got caught in a blade
and yanked the boat hook into the tail, snapping it off. I suppose that
this is a lot better than having the boat hook strike a spinning blade
and potentially impale me, but I'm not happy at all.

While in general I am happy with the KISS generator's simplicity, I
think that this is a serious design problem which poses a substantial
safety risk. If you're thinking about getting one, consider this fact
before buying.


************************************************** *****
Sometimes in a workplace you find snot on the wall of
the toilet cubicles. You feel "What sort of twisted
child would do this?"....the internet seems full of
them. It's very sad

On Tue, 4 May 2004 13:49:54 +0100, "Nigel"
wrote:

I'm looking at buying a wind and or towed generator for my boat, the choices
seem to be Aerogen, Ampair, Duogen or Rutland, does anybody have any
expirience with any of these, or any recomendation for other makes, I'm
based in the UK.

I have recently bought a second hand aerogen 4, been running it now
for around a month. My only comment would be why I did not get one
sooner, my batteries (250AH) have never been in such good condition. I
can run high current items like the laptop or heater without the worry
of running the batteries down. The fridge can be left on, which is
brilliant.

But, we have had some good winds over April, over the more stable
summer months it may not be as pretty a picture, but so far I can not
complain. I don't even notice the generator is there most of the time,
the only tell tail is during the day with some odd shadows or catching
the movement in the corner of my eye, I can not hear it at all.


Jools

http://www.topcatsail.co.uk