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Icom 802 troubleshooting
Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the
automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
I recently setup one of these for a friend now on his way to Hawaii. I found
that the autotune was turned off as it came from the box. Make sure it is on or it will not use the tuner. Did the tech say what the SWR was between the radio and tuner? Was the radio set for full power? "Keith" wrote in message ... Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:35:11 -0800, "David K6DLW"
wrote: I recently setup one of these for a friend now on his way to Hawaii. I found that the autotune was turned off as it came from the box. Make sure it is on or it will not use the tuner. Did the tech say what the SWR was between the radio and tuner? Was the radio set for full power? I agree with David. Make sure the display says TUNE not THRU, which look too similar for comfort. Try it on different frequencies across the bands, too. When you press the TUNE button, make sure it tunes, too. If the display WON'T go into TUNE and you don't hear relays clicking away madly in the tuner, the problem is the cheap-assed inline connectors that hook up the control cables. I've had to redo our control plugs, already, and have raised hell with Icom over this cheapness crap. I assume you have the AT-140 with the pigtail control cable, right? If so, get your technician back to the boat and eliminate it before it strands you. Stupid ICOM, STUPID. Have him take the tuner cover off and unsolder the control cable pigtail wires from the main PC board. He can do it very easily as there are soldering loops in the main board. You can replace the pigtail without taking the main board out of the tuner. Now, run the control cable through the watertight fitting and solder the appropriate wires straight to the appropriate 4 solder loops, eliminating this stupid, sure-to-fail board plug made to corrode. Unfortunately, the one on the radio is still there (same connector stupidity). Damned Icom Cheapskates. As the boat vibrates around or something bends the control cable connector against the plug in the radio, it will open up and have to be tightened inside the connector again. They're way too fragile! If I have to do ours again, I'm gonna solder the damned wires together to stop it, bypassing this plug. I'd bet your tuner isn't engaging...... Another thing I've noticed on our M802 is RF interference into the microphone on certain frequencies. It's easy to see. Key the mic and whistle loudly into it. The LED power output display should all light up and STAY lit until you stop the whistle. When the RF gets into the mic jack, you'll whistle and see this display pulsing in power output as the RF jams the mic circuit with interference. I know it's the mic circuit because I can wad the coilcord up in my hand and get a good report and display reading. People on the air will report your audio is all distorted. You may be experiencing some effects from this RF feedback problem, too, reducing power output. On our boat, it seems worse in the lower frequencies, below 4 Mhz. The radio is about 9' from the tuner at the bottom of the insulated backstay. The connecting lead from backstay to tuner is about 1' long. DO NOT MOVE THE TUNER away from the antenna! I don't know where he got this nonsense, but the tuner needs to be as close to the antenna as possible. The more ground connections to the ground terminal on the tuner, the better. Broadcast AM stations with similar antennas use 36 ground radials laid out around 360 degrees, 1/4 wavelength long, to get a great ground. On a boat, of course, this isn't possible. What IS possible and works really great is to use a trailing ground radial, about 100' long is great. Use insulated wire sealed at the trailing end to keep the seawater out and as big a guage as you can. I'm using 120' of #12 bright orange wire with a little plastic cup on the end as a sort of sea anchor to pull on it as the boat moves through the water. That holds it out flat very nicely. The effect is you have created a huge L antenna with the vertical your insulated backstay (or whip or whatever) and the horizontal part trailing 120' out behind the boat, with the tuner at the feedpoint. My ham radio signal reports increase nearly 10 dB with the trailing ground deployed. Of course, don't forget to reel it in before you back down or drag it over those obstructions. It works great, also, at anchor. Ground the tuner to your anchor chain rode with a jumper cable. The trailing wire will wrap up the anchor in the tide. At the dock, if you like to play as I do, simply drop a ground wire over the side and let it lay on the bottom with a sinker to hold it. Otherwise, Lionheart's tuner is hooked to the engine block below it with a piece of painted copper flashing from the hardware store. Larry W4CSC "Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!" |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
In article ,
"Keith" wrote: Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. Hello Keith, I don't know the guy you hired to do your HF Radio work, but from the sounds of things, he isn't one of the greatest Tech's to walk down the dock. First thing, is to transmit into a Dummy Load, and see if the radio is capable of putting out it's rated power, into a perfect antenna. If yes, the problem isn't in the radio. If no, then the radio needs to be realigned. (tuned) Second, understand that any SSB Radio maybe transmitting rated power, and it doesn't nessesarily show up on a non-peak reading Wattmeter. There are many reasons to have the autotuner mounted at this polace or that place. Most are related to what type of RF Ground System your vessel has. From a strictly RF standopoint, closer to the Ground Plate is better, and 2" copper foil is minimal for any connection to a RF Ground System. what is the length of the copper foil in feet? The longer the foil, the worse the ground impedance will be, and the harder the tuner will have to work to tune the antenna. You don't tell us anything about the vessel construction, RF Ground System, or antenna system. Knoing these would be critical in advising you on your installation. Points of interest. 1. If your foil is longer than 3 or 4 Feet, then what you are asking that autotuner to do the almost impossible. Think it as if the tuner wan't sitting at ground but at some point above ground and that point is the length of the copper foil. Lets say 15 Ft, as you say it is on the Flying Bridge, and that is say 15 Ft above Waterline. Now you effectivly have the tuner in the middle of a diopole antenna and trying to reconcile impedances on both antenna and ground at the same time. BAD IDEA. The firmware in the tuner only looks at the antenna impedance, with refernce to the Ground lug on the tuner. If the ground lug isn't at RF Ground, then the tuner firmware gets REALLY FUNNY DATA from it's internal sensers and it doesn't deal with funny data well. 2. If the tuner is moved to a place, say 3 ft from the RF Ground, then you must add wire to the antenna, and that wire becomes part of the antenna, and therefore gets tuned by the tuner. This is a GOOD THING, if people, or Ground don't come to close to it while you are transmitting. By adding wire (length) to the antenna you are effectivly lowering the frequency that the tuner will tune. This again is a GOOD THING, on a plastic or wood vessel. 3. As Larry and Jim have stated, check and BE SURE, that the radio is in TUNER MODE, and not THRU MODE. If your in THRU MODE, the tuner isn't even going look at your antenna, let alone try and tune it. More information! Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
Leave the tuner as close to the antenna as practical. That's much
more important than the distance to the ground plate. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
OK, let's see if I can give feedback to all of your notes.
Yes, the radio is set to "tune", and on full power. I will double check to make sure the tech didn't change either of the settings. I do not know what the SWR's were. The bad part was that I had been trying to hook up with this guy for awhile... and I wasn't here when he did the checks. When I hit "tune", I sure don't hear any clicks or any other evidence that it's doing anything. The control cable was the one thing I DIDN'T do myself, so I'm beginning to suspect that as Larry pointed out. I remember that topic on here before. The little pins were so tiny I couldn't hardly see them much less solder them! I think I'll work on this as Larry suggests. The Antenna is a Digital fiberglass... don't remember the exact length, but what the folks around here recommended... The boat is fiberglass, a Krogen 42. The 2" copper foil runs about 12-15' from the tuner on the flying bridge down to a big Wunderbar (sp?). The bar is a scintered bronze plate, about 24" x 6" or so. Nothing else is connected or grounded to this, except that I also have a 2" foil strip that runs to the radio and connects to the ground on the back, as shown in in ICOM installation manual. I think I'm going to redo the control cable as Larry suggests, and go from there. "Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith" wrote: Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. Hello Keith, I don't know the guy you hired to do your HF Radio work, but from the sounds of things, he isn't one of the greatest Tech's to walk down the dock. First thing, is to transmit into a Dummy Load, and see if the radio is capable of putting out it's rated power, into a perfect antenna. If yes, the problem isn't in the radio. If no, then the radio needs to be realigned. (tuned) Second, understand that any SSB Radio maybe transmitting rated power, and it doesn't nessesarily show up on a non-peak reading Wattmeter. There are many reasons to have the autotuner mounted at this polace or that place. Most are related to what type of RF Ground System your vessel has. From a strictly RF standopoint, closer to the Ground Plate is better, and 2" copper foil is minimal for any connection to a RF Ground System. what is the length of the copper foil in feet? The longer the foil, the worse the ground impedance will be, and the harder the tuner will have to work to tune the antenna. You don't tell us anything about the vessel construction, RF Ground System, or antenna system. Knoing these would be critical in advising you on your installation. Points of interest. 1. If your foil is longer than 3 or 4 Feet, then what you are asking that autotuner to do the almost impossible. Think it as if the tuner wan't sitting at ground but at some point above ground and that point is the length of the copper foil. Lets say 15 Ft, as you say it is on the Flying Bridge, and that is say 15 Ft above Waterline. Now you effectivly have the tuner in the middle of a diopole antenna and trying to reconcile impedances on both antenna and ground at the same time. BAD IDEA. The firmware in the tuner only looks at the antenna impedance, with refernce to the Ground lug on the tuner. If the ground lug isn't at RF Ground, then the tuner firmware gets REALLY FUNNY DATA from it's internal sensers and it doesn't deal with funny data well. 2. If the tuner is moved to a place, say 3 ft from the RF Ground, then you must add wire to the antenna, and that wire becomes part of the antenna, and therefore gets tuned by the tuner. This is a GOOD THING, if people, or Ground don't come to close to it while you are transmitting. By adding wire (length) to the antenna you are effectivly lowering the frequency that the tuner will tune. This again is a GOOD THING, on a plastic or wood vessel. 3. As Larry and Jim have stated, check and BE SURE, that the radio is in TUNER MODE, and not THRU MODE. If your in THRU MODE, the tuner isn't even going look at your antenna, let alone try and tune it. More information! Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
Keith,
I'm trying to visualize where the base of your antenna is. Ideally the tuner should be mounted at or below the base. If the tuner is on the flybridge and the base is down near deck level, then your antenna feed is running down, and more or less parallel to the antenna itself. If so, this may be the source of your problem. On the other hand, if the antenna base is on the fly bridge near the antenna tuner, it should be OK assuming a good ground and proper hook up with the tuner control cable. ============================================= On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:37:04 -0600, "Keith" wrote: OK, let's see if I can give feedback to all of your notes. Yes, the radio is set to "tune", and on full power. I will double check to make sure the tech didn't change either of the settings. I do not know what the SWR's were. The bad part was that I had been trying to hook up with this guy for awhile... and I wasn't here when he did the checks. When I hit "tune", I sure don't hear any clicks or any other evidence that it's doing anything. The control cable was the one thing I DIDN'T do myself, so I'm beginning to suspect that as Larry pointed out. I remember that topic on here before. The little pins were so tiny I couldn't hardly see them much less solder them! I think I'll work on this as Larry suggests. The Antenna is a Digital fiberglass... don't remember the exact length, but what the folks around here recommended... The boat is fiberglass, a Krogen 42. The 2" copper foil runs about 12-15' from the tuner on the flying bridge down to a big Wunderbar (sp?). The bar is a scintered bronze plate, about 24" x 6" or so. Nothing else is connected or grounded to this, except that I also have a 2" foil strip that runs to the radio and connects to the ground on the back, as shown in in ICOM installation manual. I think I'm going to redo the control cable as Larry suggests, and go from there. "Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith" wrote: Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. Hello Keith, I don't know the guy you hired to do your HF Radio work, but from the sounds of things, he isn't one of the greatest Tech's to walk down the dock. First thing, is to transmit into a Dummy Load, and see if the radio is capable of putting out it's rated power, into a perfect antenna. If yes, the problem isn't in the radio. If no, then the radio needs to be realigned. (tuned) Second, understand that any SSB Radio maybe transmitting rated power, and it doesn't nessesarily show up on a non-peak reading Wattmeter. There are many reasons to have the autotuner mounted at this polace or that place. Most are related to what type of RF Ground System your vessel has. From a strictly RF standopoint, closer to the Ground Plate is better, and 2" copper foil is minimal for any connection to a RF Ground System. what is the length of the copper foil in feet? The longer the foil, the worse the ground impedance will be, and the harder the tuner will have to work to tune the antenna. You don't tell us anything about the vessel construction, RF Ground System, or antenna system. Knoing these would be critical in advising you on your installation. Points of interest. 1. If your foil is longer than 3 or 4 Feet, then what you are asking that autotuner to do the almost impossible. Think it as if the tuner wan't sitting at ground but at some point above ground and that point is the length of the copper foil. Lets say 15 Ft, as you say it is on the Flying Bridge, and that is say 15 Ft above Waterline. Now you effectivly have the tuner in the middle of a diopole antenna and trying to reconcile impedances on both antenna and ground at the same time. BAD IDEA. The firmware in the tuner only looks at the antenna impedance, with refernce to the Ground lug on the tuner. If the ground lug isn't at RF Ground, then the tuner firmware gets REALLY FUNNY DATA from it's internal sensers and it doesn't deal with funny data well. 2. If the tuner is moved to a place, say 3 ft from the RF Ground, then you must add wire to the antenna, and that wire becomes part of the antenna, and therefore gets tuned by the tuner. This is a GOOD THING, if people, or Ground don't come to close to it while you are transmitting. By adding wire (length) to the antenna you are effectivly lowering the frequency that the tuner will tune. This again is a GOOD THING, on a plastic or wood vessel. 3. As Larry and Jim have stated, check and BE SURE, that the radio is in TUNER MODE, and not THRU MODE. If your in THRU MODE, the tuner isn't even going look at your antenna, let alone try and tune it. More information! Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
The ground plate that you have should provide a good ground for the
tuner but you need to move the tuner to within a couple of feet of the ground plate. Run your antenna lead down to the tuner. As Bruce said "it will become part of the antenna". Trying to use a 15 foot 2" copper strap as a ground lead will not work well on any frequency. It is much too long and has too much inductance. Your antenna has an impedance of only a few ohms on some frequencies. Your 15 foot ground lead can have an impedance of many times that depending on the frequency being used. The power gets divided between your antenna feed impedance and the ground impedance. If the ground impedance is equal to the antenna impedance, your power is divided equally between the two. 1/2 of the power is dissipated in the ground lead and not the antenna. If the ground lead impedance is higher than the antenna impedance then most of the power goes to the ground lead and not the antenna. With the long ground lead that you have you are going to get lots of RF that gets into wires that you don't want it to. Some of it can make its way back into the radio, power leads etc. and partially shut down the radio. You may have other problems with the radio or system also but you surly have a too long ground lead problem. Regards Gary On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:37:04 -0600, "Keith" wrote: OK, let's see if I can give feedback to all of your notes. Yes, the radio is set to "tune", and on full power. I will double check to make sure the tech didn't change either of the settings. I do not know what the SWR's were. The bad part was that I had been trying to hook up with this guy for awhile... and I wasn't here when he did the checks. When I hit "tune", I sure don't hear any clicks or any other evidence that it's doing anything. The control cable was the one thing I DIDN'T do myself, so I'm beginning to suspect that as Larry pointed out. I remember that topic on here before. The little pins were so tiny I couldn't hardly see them much less solder them! I think I'll work on this as Larry suggests. The Antenna is a Digital fiberglass... don't remember the exact length, but what the folks around here recommended... The boat is fiberglass, a Krogen 42. The 2" copper foil runs about 12-15' from the tuner on the flying bridge down to a big Wunderbar (sp?). The bar is a scintered bronze plate, about 24" x 6" or so. Nothing else is connected or grounded to this, except that I also have a 2" foil strip that runs to the radio and connects to the ground on the back, as shown in in ICOM installation manual. I think I'm going to redo the control cable as Larry suggests, and go from there. "Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith" wrote: Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. Hello Keith, I don't know the guy you hired to do your HF Radio work, but from the sounds of things, he isn't one of the greatest Tech's to walk down the dock. First thing, is to transmit into a Dummy Load, and see if the radio is capable of putting out it's rated power, into a perfect antenna. If yes, the problem isn't in the radio. If no, then the radio needs to be realigned. (tuned) Second, understand that any SSB Radio maybe transmitting rated power, and it doesn't nessesarily show up on a non-peak reading Wattmeter. There are many reasons to have the autotuner mounted at this polace or that place. Most are related to what type of RF Ground System your vessel has. From a strictly RF standopoint, closer to the Ground Plate is better, and 2" copper foil is minimal for any connection to a RF Ground System. what is the length of the copper foil in feet? The longer the foil, the worse the ground impedance will be, and the harder the tuner will have to work to tune the antenna. You don't tell us anything about the vessel construction, RF Ground System, or antenna system. Knoing these would be critical in advising you on your installation. Points of interest. 1. If your foil is longer than 3 or 4 Feet, then what you are asking that autotuner to do the almost impossible. Think it as if the tuner wan't sitting at ground but at some point above ground and that point is the length of the copper foil. Lets say 15 Ft, as you say it is on the Flying Bridge, and that is say 15 Ft above Waterline. Now you effectivly have the tuner in the middle of a diopole antenna and trying to reconcile impedances on both antenna and ground at the same time. BAD IDEA. The firmware in the tuner only looks at the antenna impedance, with refernce to the Ground lug on the tuner. If the ground lug isn't at RF Ground, then the tuner firmware gets REALLY FUNNY DATA from it's internal sensers and it doesn't deal with funny data well. 2. If the tuner is moved to a place, say 3 ft from the RF Ground, then you must add wire to the antenna, and that wire becomes part of the antenna, and therefore gets tuned by the tuner. This is a GOOD THING, if people, or Ground don't come to close to it while you are transmitting. By adding wire (length) to the antenna you are effectivly lowering the frequency that the tuner will tune. This again is a GOOD THING, on a plastic or wood vessel. 3. As Larry and Jim have stated, check and BE SURE, that the radio is in TUNER MODE, and not THRU MODE. If your in THRU MODE, the tuner isn't even going look at your antenna, let alone try and tune it. More information! Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
Why do you say that?
The lead that goes from the antenna tuner to the antenna becomes just as much a part of the antenna as the rest of the antenna wire. It is much more important to have a low inductance (short) ground lead. Regards Gary On 15 Nov 2003 12:10:55 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: Leave the tuner as close to the antenna as practical. That's much more important than the distance to the ground plate. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
The antenna base is about 3' away from the tuner at it's present location,
on the flying bridge. They are basically at the same level. The antenna lead exits the locker, then runs perpendicular about 2' to the antenna hookup. Going to tackle the problems one at a time. Turns out that the early 802's had manufacturing problems, and won't transmit at a strong power level. I have one of these, and am sending it back to the factory for warranty repair. That's what I get for being an early adopter! Next, I really suspect the control cable, so will double check and verify that. The tuner placement seems to be anything but a concensus. I hate to move the thing, but if all else fails, that will be the final change. I can place it in a locker about halfway between the antenna and ground plate. In that position, the ground foil would have to go about 5' to the ground plate. The other place would be right in the engine room on the bulkhead, about 2' to the ground plate, but I worry more about heat, etc. in there. Will keep everyone posted, and thanks for the help! "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Keith, I'm trying to visualize where the base of your antenna is. Ideally the tuner should be mounted at or below the base. If the tuner is on the flybridge and the base is down near deck level, then your antenna feed is running down, and more or less parallel to the antenna itself. If so, this may be the source of your problem. On the other hand, if the antenna base is on the fly bridge near the antenna tuner, it should be OK assuming a good ground and proper hook up with the tuner control cable. ============================================= On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:37:04 -0600, "Keith" wrote: OK, let's see if I can give feedback to all of your notes. Yes, the radio is set to "tune", and on full power. I will double check to make sure the tech didn't change either of the settings. I do not know what the SWR's were. The bad part was that I had been trying to hook up with this guy for awhile... and I wasn't here when he did the checks. When I hit "tune", I sure don't hear any clicks or any other evidence that it's doing anything. The control cable was the one thing I DIDN'T do myself, so I'm beginning to suspect that as Larry pointed out. I remember that topic on here before. The little pins were so tiny I couldn't hardly see them much less solder them! I think I'll work on this as Larry suggests. The Antenna is a Digital fiberglass... don't remember the exact length, but what the folks around here recommended... The boat is fiberglass, a Krogen 42. The 2" copper foil runs about 12-15' from the tuner on the flying bridge down to a big Wunderbar (sp?). The bar is a scintered bronze plate, about 24" x 6" or so. Nothing else is connected or grounded to this, except that I also have a 2" foil strip that runs to the radio and connects to the ground on the back, as shown in in ICOM installation manual. I think I'm going to redo the control cable as Larry suggests, and go from there. "Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ... In article , "Keith" wrote: Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out about 50 watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks something is wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...) He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer to the ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to the antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor from the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway between the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right? The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio to the ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this isn't necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now. Help! At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have it checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things work before I start moving the tuner around. Hello Keith, I don't know the guy you hired to do your HF Radio work, but from the sounds of things, he isn't one of the greatest Tech's to walk down the dock. First thing, is to transmit into a Dummy Load, and see if the radio is capable of putting out it's rated power, into a perfect antenna. If yes, the problem isn't in the radio. If no, then the radio needs to be realigned. (tuned) Second, understand that any SSB Radio maybe transmitting rated power, and it doesn't nessesarily show up on a non-peak reading Wattmeter. There are many reasons to have the autotuner mounted at this polace or that place. Most are related to what type of RF Ground System your vessel has. From a strictly RF standopoint, closer to the Ground Plate is better, and 2" copper foil is minimal for any connection to a RF Ground System. what is the length of the copper foil in feet? The longer the foil, the worse the ground impedance will be, and the harder the tuner will have to work to tune the antenna. You don't tell us anything about the vessel construction, RF Ground System, or antenna system. Knoing these would be critical in advising you on your installation. Points of interest. 1. If your foil is longer than 3 or 4 Feet, then what you are asking that autotuner to do the almost impossible. Think it as if the tuner wan't sitting at ground but at some point above ground and that point is the length of the copper foil. Lets say 15 Ft, as you say it is on the Flying Bridge, and that is say 15 Ft above Waterline. Now you effectivly have the tuner in the middle of a diopole antenna and trying to reconcile impedances on both antenna and ground at the same time. BAD IDEA. The firmware in the tuner only looks at the antenna impedance, with refernce to the Ground lug on the tuner. If the ground lug isn't at RF Ground, then the tuner firmware gets REALLY FUNNY DATA from it's internal sensers and it doesn't deal with funny data well. 2. If the tuner is moved to a place, say 3 ft from the RF Ground, then you must add wire to the antenna, and that wire becomes part of the antenna, and therefore gets tuned by the tuner. This is a GOOD THING, if people, or Ground don't come to close to it while you are transmitting. By adding wire (length) to the antenna you are effectivly lowering the frequency that the tuner will tune. This again is a GOOD THING, on a plastic or wood vessel. 3. As Larry and Jim have stated, check and BE SURE, that the radio is in TUNER MODE, and not THRU MODE. If your in THRU MODE, the tuner isn't even going look at your antenna, let alone try and tune it. More information! Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
SGC has always maintained that the coupler/tuner should be mounted as
close to the base of the antenna as possible. Links: http://www.sgcworld.com/support/golden_rules.htm http://www.sgcworld.com/ftp/Books/SG230Man.pdf (pages 10, 41) You are right in that the antenna starts at the tuner. With the all RF generated every time you key the mic, that is precisely WHY you want the lead from the tuner to the antenna as short as possible. The idea is to have as little of the antenna radiating inside the boat as possible. Gary Schafer wrote in message . .. Why do you say that? The lead that goes from the antenna tuner to the antenna becomes just as much a part of the antenna as the rest of the antenna wire. It is much more important to have a low inductance (short) ground lead. Regards Gary On 15 Nov 2003 12:10:55 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: Leave the tuner as close to the antenna as practical. That's much more important than the distance to the ground plate. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for
boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit, which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
You don't suppose they are trying to sell ground foil do you? :)
Ask Bruce about ground planes on fly bridges. :) Regards Gary On 22 Nov 2003 04:18:15 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit, which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
What about that long ground lead. It acts as an antenna too. If the
ground lead is long so does the coax and control cable going to the tuner act as part of the antenna. That will surly couple RF into unwanted places. Besides making the whole system inefficient. Regards Gary On 22 Nov 2003 04:02:00 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: SGC has always maintained that the coupler/tuner should be mounted as close to the base of the antenna as possible. Links: http://www.sgcworld.com/support/golden_rules.htm http://www.sgcworld.com/ftp/Books/SG230Man.pdf (pages 10, 41) You are right in that the antenna starts at the tuner. With the all RF generated every time you key the mic, that is precisely WHY you want the lead from the tuner to the antenna as short as possible. The idea is to have as little of the antenna radiating inside the boat as possible. Gary Schafer wrote in message . .. Why do you say that? The lead that goes from the antenna tuner to the antenna becomes just as much a part of the antenna as the rest of the antenna wire. It is much more important to have a low inductance (short) ground lead. Regards Gary On 15 Nov 2003 12:10:55 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: Leave the tuner as close to the antenna as practical. That's much more important than the distance to the ground plate. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended. He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way, all with great success. Regards, Mark Gary Schafer wrote in message . .. You don't suppose they are trying to sell ground foil do you? :) Ask Bruce about ground planes on fly bridges. :) Regards Gary On 22 Nov 2003 04:18:15 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit, which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats. |
Grounding for HF SSB, tiny surface area works OK?
Didn't Gordon West recently publish the results of an informal experiment where
his only ground was simply a short wire hung off the boat touching salt water, (not a long length dragged behind the boat)? As I recall, against all common wisdom, it worked great. The article called into question the need for big surface areas of grounding material if in salt water. It implied that simply grounding to a metallic through hull might do the job. I know we still have the issues of coupler and antenna location, feedline, etc. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
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Icom 802 troubleshooting
I haven't read everything that Gordon West has written. But some of
the stuff, especially the comparisons he makes between systems, leaves a little to be desired. If he says "we no longer need huge amounts of ground foil etc. because of modern tuners", what does that tell you? That is like saying "my radio puts out a good signal". Compared to what? Modern tuners don't help the ground situation one bit. They haven't changed the laws of physics. The only thing a modern tuner does is let you get away with a poor ground system easier than the old manual tuners. Much less work involved to get the radio to operate. Not that it operates any better though. Just look at the quality of some of the SGC radios. Is it any wonder their manuals are a little off. I have seen countless manufacturers with very poor antenna system installation advice. Some people have finally realized that a good connection to the sea water is an excellent ground. Gordon West Being among them. Now if only people would come to realize the importance of SHORT ground leads. Regards Gary On 22 Nov 2003 10:15:46 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended. He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way, all with great success. Regards, Mark Gary Schafer wrote in message . .. You don't suppose they are trying to sell ground foil do you? :) Ask Bruce about ground planes on fly bridges. :) Regards Gary On 22 Nov 2003 04:18:15 -0800, (Mark Reichow) wrote: Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit, which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats. |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
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Icom 802 troubleshooting
"SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!" Ok Bruce, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The SGC radios are known far and wide as being junk. The SGC tuners however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them. But for the sake of your argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the coupler/tuner market. Here's ICOM's position on mounting automatic antenna tuners on sail and powerboats. http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf Have a nice day. Mark |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
I don't care what books you read or who wrote them and why they decide
that the rules of physics changed because he is now being paid by what company. The Antenna begins at the tuner The ground (system) begins at the antenna Do you want the antenna radiating or the ground radiating? Do you want the antenna as long as possible? (Look at an antenna-engineering book to get the formula for antennas, hint: one of the many factors that are DIRECTLY proportional is the length of antenna (bet not very many of the non-engineer type antenna experts in here knew that )) LOL just opened up a can of worms. You want the ground of a vertical type antenna, sloper counts as that in my book as it is only ¼ wavelength (not really but that's what the tuner is for, to lie to the transmission line but really it changes the feed point reactance, anyway I wasn't an English major and anyway again you want the ground at the tuner to be an effective counterpoise by coupling into the seawater without radiating any of that rf. Hot grounds anyone, that's my story and I'm sticking to it Gordie can write I can't he better stick to writing maybe some children's books would be better Bruce in Alaska wrote in message ... In article , (Mark Reichow) wrote: A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended. He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way, all with great success. Regards, Mark Old Gordie, doesn't have a clue about how the firmware in "Modern Autotuners", works, and shows his ingnorence in his writing such drivel. The requirement for a "Solid Low Impeadance RF Ground System" doesn't change just because you have a fancy Autotuner, instead of a clunky old Fixed Channel Tuner, of years gone by. The only change is that you, as a Vessel Owner, can do your own installations instead of hiring a "Competant Marine Radioman" to do a quality job for you. This allows you to make all the "Stupid and unintellegent" mistakes that folks with years of experience made back on their first installation. My first question was ALWAYS, "Do you want it to WORK, or do you want it to LOOK GOOD?" SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT! How do you determine "great suscess"? Like I have posted before, just making a "Radio Contact" when the band is wide open doesn't prove anything. A "Wet Noodle" will work when the band is open. We used to do that by calling KMI from Puget Sound all the time, and "It don't mean Squat" Make a contact when the band is noisy and marginal, or in the middle of a Big Storm, when your more likly to really need to communicate, then maybe you got something. See in the Non-commecial Maritime Radio World, you actually use the HF Radio very little and actually make contact even less. In the Commercial Maritime Radio World, these guys are using that radio 4 or more times a day, every day, and if they don't get a contact, they move frequency untill they do make contact. When they had Radio Operators, it was considerable more contact per ship per day than that. If they had marginal Antenna Systems and RF Grounds, they are back "Bitching" to the Istalling Radioman, after the first voyage. Been there, had that happen! Bruce in alaska |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
"SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!" Ok, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The SGC radios are known far and wide as being junk. No argument there. The SGC tuners however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them. (BTW, Honda didn't do the "original design work" on the automobile either, yet they make a quality product.) But for the sake of your argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the coupler/tuner market. Here's ICOM's take on mounting automatic antenna tuners on sail and power boats. http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf Have a nice day. Mark |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
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Icom 802 troubleshooting
On 22 Nov 2003 15:35:02 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote: "SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!" Ok, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The SGC radios are known far and wide as being junk. No argument there. The SGC tuners however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them. (BTW, Honda didn't do the "original design work" on the automobile either, yet they make a quality product.) But for the sake of your argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the coupler/tuner market. Here's ICOM's take on mounting automatic antenna tuners on sail and power boats. http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf Have a nice day. Mark One reason you may see this kind of thing from manufacturers is that is what all the rest are professing. There may be a fear that if they tell you the proper way to do it you may not buy their radio because it is more complicated than the competition. They really make it sound simple and uncomplicated don't they. Don't believe everything you read. Look for some facts to back it up. Regards Gary |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
You bring up a good point. Remember the guys that have a 12 to 15 foot
ground lead from their tuner up on the fly bridge? It just so happens that around 16 feet is a quarter wave on 20 meters. Now if you have one end of that 16 foot ground strap connected to the tuner and the other end connected to a ground below, guess what ? You have a complete open ground circuit at the tuner! That ground strap does no good at all. Connected or disconnected at the tuner it will make no difference. As a matter of fact if you unhook it at the ground end (opposite the tuner) it will be much more effective. It will then act as a quarter wave length radial giving you some counterpoise for the tuner. Regards Gary On 22 Nov 2003 15:36:41 -0800, (Gw) wrote: Sorry guys i forgot 1 thing in my last lunatic rant. If a perfect ground is exactly 1/4 wavelength away from the tuner what does it look like ?? Answer infinite resistence Bruce in Alaska wrote in message ... In article , (Mark Reichow) wrote: A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended. He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way, all with great success. Regards, Mark Old Gordie, doesn't have a clue about how the firmware in "Modern Autotuners", works, and shows his ingnorence in his writing such drivel. The requirement for a "Solid Low Impeadance RF Ground System" doesn't change just because you have a fancy Autotuner, instead of a clunky old Fixed Channel Tuner, of years gone by. The only change is that you, as a Vessel Owner, can do your own installations instead of hiring a "Competant Marine Radioman" to do a quality job for you. This allows you to make all the "Stupid and unintellegent" mistakes that folks with years of experience made back on their first installation. My first question was ALWAYS, "Do you want it to WORK, or do you want it to LOOK GOOD?" SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT! How do you determine "great suscess"? Like I have posted before, just making a "Radio Contact" when the band is wide open doesn't prove anything. A "Wet Noodle" will work when the band is open. We used to do that by calling KMI from Puget Sound all the time, and "It don't mean Squat" Make a contact when the band is noisy and marginal, or in the middle of a Big Storm, when your more likly to really need to communicate, then maybe you got something. See in the Non-commecial Maritime Radio World, you actually use the HF Radio very little and actually make contact even less. In the Commercial Maritime Radio World, these guys are using that radio 4 or more times a day, every day, and if they don't get a contact, they move frequency untill they do make contact. When they had Radio Operators, it was considerable more contact per ship per day than that. If they had marginal Antenna Systems and RF Grounds, they are back "Bitching" to the Istalling Radioman, after the first voyage. Been there, had that happen! Bruce in alaska |
Grounding for HF SSB, tiny surface area works OK?
|
Icom 802 troubleshooting
In article ,
(Gw) wrote: Sorry guys i forgot 1 thing in my last lunatic rant. If a perfect ground is exactly 1/4 wavelength away from the tuner what does it look like ?? Answer infinite resistence At one and only one frequency!!! What is the point of having an Autotuner, or for that matter having any tuner if you only need and use one Frequency? Your 1/4 wavelength Rant is BOGAS in the Maritime Mobile Radio context...... Daaaaa Bruce in alaska -- Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern Alaska) add a 2 before @ Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850 www.btpost.net www.99850.net |
Icom 802 troubleshooting
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Icom 802 troubleshooting
In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote: "SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!" Ok Bruce, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The SGC radios are known far and wide as being junk. The SGC tuners however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them. But for the sake of your argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the coupler/tuner market. Here's ICOM's position on mounting automatic antenna tuners on sail and powerboats. http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf Have a nice day. Mark Just beacuse you read it in print from an OEM still doesn't make it TRUTH. The guy who wrote that stuff, obviously never had to install a system and do Proof of Performance Tests. It's the RF Ground that is the MOST important part of any Marine Radio Installation! Anything conductive will radiate RF into the ether. The Best Antenna in the world will not compensate for a POOR Rf Ground. The WORST Antenna in the world will communicate, if it is working against a GREAT Rf Ground. I have always believed that an Engineer should be allowed to design anything, untill he/she has had five years experience as a Field Service Tech in the same in Industry. This why we get cars that you have to pull the engine to change sparkplugs, and just plain Dumb Designs. I guess it also should be true in the Documentation Writing Business as well. Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
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