Marcus AAkesson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:08 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

4) What do you like other than the cheap white crap for antenna cable? I
used Belden 9913 (solid center conductor) on Swee****er. Is that still a
good choice?

RG214 or similar which is silver plated Cu in both conductor and
shield. Raw copper will in time oxidize and deteriorate in the salty
environment. I have seen some really ugly cables after only 5-6 years.


Check out http://www.therfc.com/attenrat.htm

Common RG-58A (the white crap) looses 7.4dB/100 ft at 200MHz. That's
over half your signal used to heat the coax! RG-8X (mini-RG8 - the other
white crap) is almost as bad at 5.4 dB/100'. Belden 9913 is excellent at
only 1.8dB/100. RG-214 has 3.3dB loss/100' but as Marcus suggests may
have better corrosion resistance. Of course if money, size and weight
are unimportant there's LDF5 (c:

Thanks to Marcus for suggesting RG214 and Vito for the numbers. On
Swee****er it was about 110 feet from radio to antenna (82' in the mast,
plus radio to mast), so I worried about losses. The bare copper solid #10
AWG center conductor of 9913 won't corrode much, and the shield is tinned,
so it won't corrode much either.

On Fintry, it's only about 25' from radios to antennas, and the antenna end
is much closer to the sea, so I'll probably use RG214 unless someone has a
better idea. Besides, putting 259s on that #10 wire is a pain.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..
"Vito" wrote in message
...
Marcus AAkesson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:08 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

4) What do you like other than the cheap white crap for antenna cable?
I
used Belden 9913 (solid center conductor) on Swee****er. Is that still
a
good choice?

RG214 or similar which is silver plated Cu in both conductor and
shield. Raw copper will in time oxidize and deteriorate in the salty
environment. I have seen some really ugly cables after only 5-6 years.


Check out http://www.therfc.com/attenrat.htm

Common RG-58A (the white crap) looses 7.4dB/100 ft at 200MHz. That's
over half your signal used to heat the coax! RG-8X (mini-RG8 - the other
white crap) is almost as bad at 5.4 dB/100'. Belden 9913 is excellent at
only 1.8dB/100. RG-214 has 3.3dB loss/100' but as Marcus suggests may
have better corrosion resistance. Of course if money, size and weight
are unimportant there's LDF5 (c:

One thing to consider and weigh in is the actual difference to the
receiver you're talking to...on-the-air...where it matters. Look at
any receiver or transceiver with a pseudo-calibrated S-meter. Notice
the DB scale above S-9. See how the marks are 10 dB apart? This is
also true down the scale.

So, before you all go hauling 7/8" hardline up the mast and boring
huge holes in the fiberglass to route it, the difference on-the-air,
where it counts is that instead of your signal being S-9 on somebody's
meter with 7/8" hardline and $200 connectors, you're RG-58 signal will
only be S-8.5 and noone will notice any difference....(c;

More CB myths. Most boats only have a 25-50' coax run. What I DO
recommend is a good Belden foil shielded cable, which will require
proper crimp connectors to make it work, not PL-259's from WalMart.
The 100% foil shield will keep locally generated noise OUT of the
cable on receive on its way from the antenna to your sensitive
receiver. You won't have to listen to the cheap straight plugs marine
engine manufacturers love to put in outboard and inboard motors,
instead of the resistor plugs they should be using. The foil coax
will also get a little more signal to the antenna on transmit, but
"big deal"....(c;

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:33:27 -0500, Vito wrote:

Marcus AAkesson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:08 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

4) What do you like other than the cheap white crap for antenna cable? I
used Belden 9913 (solid center conductor) on Swee****er. Is that still a
good choice?

RG214 or similar which is silver plated Cu in both conductor and
shield. Raw copper will in time oxidize and deteriorate in the salty
environment. I have seen some really ugly cables after only 5-6 years.


Check out http://www.therfc.com/attenrat.htm

Common RG-58A (the white crap) looses 7.4dB/100 ft at 200MHz. That's
over half your signal used to heat the coax! RG-8X (mini-RG8 - the other
white crap) is almost as bad at 5.4 dB/100'. Belden 9913 is excellent at
only 1.8dB/100. RG-214 has 3.3dB loss/100' but as Marcus suggests may
have better corrosion resistance. Of course if money, size and weight
are unimportant there's LDF5 (c:


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

All true, in most cases. Maybe even here. My thinking, however, was that
Swee****er's tall stick (82 feet) did two things -- it made the lead
longer, so lossiness was more important -- and it put the antenna higher, so
we actually might be at the point where line of sight was less important
than signal strength, both going and coming.

We regularly talked to boats that were thirty to fifty miles away. Maybe
this is routine -- I don't know -- but I'd like to think that attention to
detail and the 9913 helped.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
One thing to consider and weigh in is the actual difference to the
receiver you're talking to...on-the-air...where it matters. Look at
any receiver or transceiver with a pseudo-calibrated S-meter. Notice
the DB scale above S-9. See how the marks are 10 dB apart? This is
also true down the scale.

So, before you all go hauling 7/8" hardline up the mast and boring
huge holes in the fiberglass to route it, the difference on-the-air,
where it counts is that instead of your signal being S-9 on somebody's
meter with 7/8" hardline and $200 connectors, you're RG-58 signal will
only be S-8.5 and noone will notice any difference....(c;

More CB myths. Most boats only have a 25-50' coax run. What I DO
recommend is a good Belden foil shielded cable, which will require
proper crimp connectors to make it work, not PL-259's from WalMart.
The 100% foil shield will keep locally generated noise OUT of the
cable on receive on its way from the antenna to your sensitive
receiver. You won't have to listen to the cheap straight plugs marine
engine manufacturers love to put in outboard and inboard motors,
instead of the resistor plugs they should be using. The foil coax
will also get a little more signal to the antenna on transmit, but
"big deal"....(c;

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:33:27 -0500, Vito wrote:

Marcus AAkesson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:08 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

4) What do you like other than the cheap white crap for antenna cable?
I
used Belden 9913 (solid center conductor) on Swee****er. Is that
still a
good choice?

RG214 or similar which is silver plated Cu in both conductor and
shield. Raw copper will in time oxidize and deteriorate in the salty
environment. I have seen some really ugly cables after only 5-6 years.


Check out http://www.therfc.com/attenrat.htm

Common RG-58A (the white crap) looses 7.4dB/100 ft at 200MHz. That's
over half your signal used to heat the coax! RG-8X (mini-RG8 - the other
white crap) is almost as bad at 5.4 dB/100'. Belden 9913 is excellent at
only 1.8dB/100. RG-214 has 3.3dB loss/100' but as Marcus suggests may
have better corrosion resistance. Of course if money, size and weight
are unimportant there's LDF5 (c:


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

Any loss in cable is FAR amplified by ALTITUDE on VHF. It's why WCSC
has a 2000' tower. From 2000', a rubber duck antenna on a 1 watt
walkie talkie has a range of over 100 miles. Line of sight is what's
important. The only reason you need the power is to overcome noise
and the damned marinas docking boats from a 70' tower with a 9 dB
antenna running 25 watts to get to the end of the dock. Why the FCC
doesn't restrict marinas to 1W and 10' AGL has always been a mystery
to me. They're NOT part of any rescue party, manned by teenage girls.



On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:27:00 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

All true, in most cases. Maybe even here. My thinking, however, was that
Swee****er's tall stick (82 feet) did two things -- it made the lead
longer, so lossiness was more important -- and it put the antenna higher, so
we actually might be at the point where line of sight was less important
than signal strength, both going and coming.

We regularly talked to boats that were thirty to fifty miles away. Maybe
this is routine -- I don't know -- but I'd like to think that attention to
detail and the 9913 helped.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
One thing to consider and weigh in is the actual difference to the
receiver you're talking to...on-the-air...where it matters. Look at
any receiver or transceiver with a pseudo-calibrated S-meter. Notice
the DB scale above S-9. See how the marks are 10 dB apart? This is
also true down the scale.

So, before you all go hauling 7/8" hardline up the mast and boring
huge holes in the fiberglass to route it, the difference on-the-air,
where it counts is that instead of your signal being S-9 on somebody's
meter with 7/8" hardline and $200 connectors, you're RG-58 signal will
only be S-8.5 and noone will notice any difference....(c;

More CB myths. Most boats only have a 25-50' coax run. What I DO
recommend is a good Belden foil shielded cable, which will require
proper crimp connectors to make it work, not PL-259's from WalMart.
The 100% foil shield will keep locally generated noise OUT of the
cable on receive on its way from the antenna to your sensitive
receiver. You won't have to listen to the cheap straight plugs marine
engine manufacturers love to put in outboard and inboard motors,
instead of the resistor plugs they should be using. The foil coax
will also get a little more signal to the antenna on transmit, but
"big deal"....(c;

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:33:27 -0500, Vito wrote:

Marcus AAkesson wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:08 -0500, "Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at
attbi dot com wrote:

4) What do you like other than the cheap white crap for antenna cable?
I
used Belden 9913 (solid center conductor) on Swee****er. Is that
still a
good choice?

RG214 or similar which is silver plated Cu in both conductor and
shield. Raw copper will in time oxidize and deteriorate in the salty
environment. I have seen some really ugly cables after only 5-6 years.


Check out http://www.therfc.com/attenrat.htm

Common RG-58A (the white crap) looses 7.4dB/100 ft at 200MHz. That's
over half your signal used to heat the coax! RG-8X (mini-RG8 - the other
white crap) is almost as bad at 5.4 dB/100'. Belden 9913 is excellent at
only 1.8dB/100. RG-214 has 3.3dB loss/100' but as Marcus suggests may
have better corrosion resistance. Of course if money, size and weight
are unimportant there's LDF5 (c:


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"





Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
snip

The only reason you need the power is to overcome noise
and the damned marinas docking boats from a 70' tower with a 9 dB
antenna running 25 watts to get to the end of the dock. Why the FCC
doesn't restrict marinas to 1W and 10' AGL has always been a mystery
to me. They're NOT part of any rescue party, manned by teenage girls.

Actually, don't the rules say that we all MUST use 1W when possible? Thus
the marinas are actually in violation if they're using 25 watts. Of course,
the FCC has better things to do than enforce its own rules.

And thanks to all for comments in this thread. So many decisions, so little
solid information available on subjects like this. While you guys don't
always agree, at least I get a spectrum of views from people who mostly
don't have a horse in the race.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..

I suppose that is a matter of judgement. 1 watt is pretty useless when you
are an hour away trying to secure a slip for the night. Trying to secure a
slip 10 minutes before arrival is inconsiderate and places the marina on
the spot and can leave one with few alternatives if they cannot accomodate
you. Try reducing your power to 1 watt everytime you are communicating with
a marina and see how life is?

I just have to ask what the thinly vailed insult has to do with anything? I
think
Larry's explanation of SWR was quite valuable and others who chimed in
had valuable contributions as well. Certainly more useful than the Battery
Water
thread

Doug

"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
snip

The only reason you need the power is to overcome noise
and the damned marinas docking boats from a 70' tower with a 9 dB
antenna running 25 watts to get to the end of the dock. Why the FCC
doesn't restrict marinas to 1W and 10' AGL has always been a mystery
to me. They're NOT part of any rescue party, manned by teenage girls.

Actually, don't the rules say that we all MUST use 1W when possible? Thus
the marinas are actually in violation if they're using 25 watts. Of
course,
the FCC has better things to do than enforce its own rules.

And thanks to all for comments in this thread. So many decisions, so
little
solid information available on subjects like this. While you guys don't
always agree, at least I get a spectrum of views from people who mostly
don't have a horse in the race.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.

Doug Dotson wrote:

I suppose that is a matter of judgement. 1 watt is pretty useless when you
are an hour away trying to secure a slip for the night. Trying to secure a
slip 10 minutes before arrival is inconsiderate and places the marina on
the spot and can leave one with few alternatives if they cannot accomodate
you. Try reducing your power to 1 watt everytime you are communicating with
a marina and see how life is?

I just have to ask what the thinly vailed insult has to do with anything? I
think
Larry's explanation of SWR was quite valuable and others who chimed in
had valuable contributions as well. Certainly more useful than the Battery
Water
thread

Doug



Good grief...that battery water thread has to be in the running for the
longest, dullest, most useless string of discombubulated thoughts ever
to be regurgitated on usenet.

Q: What kind of water do you use in your batteries?

A: Whatever's left in the Miller Lite cans.*





* I use AGM batteries, and drink the water.










--
Email sent to is never read.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...

snip

I just have to ask what the thinly vailed insult has to do with anything?
I think
Larry's explanation of SWR was quite valuable and others who chimed in
had valuable contributions as well.

snip
Doug

Doug:

If the comment above is aimed at me, we have a misunderstanding and I
apologize. To clarify the comment I made (see below):
1) Honest thanks to Larry and the rest of the posters in this thread. I
understand how much time it takes to write good posts such as Larry's
original explanation here (I sometmes wonder why any of us do it). While I'm
often a giver-of-advice in other newsgroups, on this one I'm usually a
taker; and when that happens I say "thank you".
2) Often there is little solid information in the marine world (or why would
we all be spending time here trading information)
3) You guys don't always agree -- that's OK, on some subjects I disagree
with myself.
4) We usually get a spectrum of views -- "different ships, different long
splices" -- with a spectrum we all get to decide which long splice we'll use
on our ship.
5) Asking antenna manufacturers or dealers, for example, what antenna to
use, is not always the best way to choose. Mostly, the people here don't
benefit directly from their advice. That's good. When they do benefit, it's
usually disclosed, which is also good.

I try very hard never to insult -- correct, yes; disagree with, often -- but
insult, never. If, however, I do, it won't be thinly veiled -- I'm very
direct, often to a fault.

Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..




The only reason you need the power is to overcome noise
and the damned marinas docking boats from a 70' tower with a 9 dB
antenna running 25 watts to get to the end of the dock. Why the FCC
doesn't restrict marinas to 1W and 10' AGL has always been a mystery
to me. They're NOT part of any rescue party, manned by teenage girls.

Actually, don't the rules say that we all MUST use 1W when possible?
Thus
the marinas are actually in violation if they're using 25 watts. Of
course,
the FCC has better things to do than enforce its own rules.

And thanks to all for comments in this thread. So many decisions, so
little
solid information available on subjects like this. While you guys don't
always agree, at least I get a spectrum of views from people who mostly
don't have a horse in the race.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.

In article ,
"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote:

We regularly talked to boats that were thirty to fifty miles away. Maybe
this is routine -- I don't know -- but I'd like to think that attention to
detail and the 9913 helped.

Jim, Just a note on the above, Out in the North Pacific, the fishing
fleet, routinely talks 90 -110 miles with 25 Watts on Vhf Maine
Frequencies. The antennas are in the 50' to 80' range above the water.
Some of the Coast Stations report contacts out to 120 Miles, using
120 Ft towers, and the 50 Watts at the antenna connection rule in
Part 80.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @