I see, so do you think that a 12v DC to 16V DC converter is the answer then?
Tony

Mad Dog wrote:

Yes, using a 6V battery in conjunction with some very extensive
series-parallel
connections and battery isolators you could theoretically design such a
circuit.
But lets consider the source of the interference, alternators are used
insted of generators
on car and boat engines because they are lighter and smaller but alternators
produce alternating current (A/C).
A full wave bridge rectifier consisting of trio diodes is used to convert
A/C into D/C
and a regulator governs output from 13.8 to 14.6VDC.
what a concept huh, anyway the rectifier leaks a small amount of A/C
current into
the regulated D/C.
this small amount of A/C current (700 millivolts) is infamously known as
A/C ripple.
In the D/C world you can call it dirty power because it will infect every
D/C appliance
and electronic gadget that you have turned on.
A/C ripple in a D/C circuit produces NOISE and INTERFERENCE and premature
component failure.
To compund things you are a inverter which inverts the already dirty DC
current back
into a modified square wave which resembles AC current.
****'s gittin deep over here...........
let me know if i'm going to fast 4 ya, what you need to do is condition or
filter the Dc
current before it reaches the intended circuit.
There are 3 types of electrical storage devices: condensers,capacitors and
batteries.
condensers store dc, capacitors store AC and you know what batteries do.
Gittin to the point a capacitor mounted in a DC circuit will block AC while
allowing DC
current to pass, hence we have effectively filtered the DC current.
there are also different types and sizes of capacitors, depending on it's
intended purpose.
keep in mind that DC current flows pos. to neg. thru the battery and
negative to positive thru
a circuit so what this means is grounds are just as important if not more so
than the positive wire.
Several companies make line conditioners for your purpose, but i have always
built my own using large banks of oil-filled electrolytic capacitors wired
in series to handle the demand
for heavy current draw.
Hopefully i have not confused you or gave you a headache as i now have
one..........
but instead given you some insight as to why some DC components dont
function as intended
when operated from rectified AC current.
--
Mad Dog

"TB" wrote in message ...

Would it be possible to have the house and engine batteries conected in
series to give 24v, step this down to 18v to power the laptop. Then tap
off each battery for normal 12v service. Sorry if this is a dumb
question but I need a dc supply as the inverter interferes with the ssb
radio when receiving weather faxes.
Tony

No, a step-up transformer is not the answer......why does he need 16V.
the original post mentions a need for 24VDC, 18VDC,12VDC and interference
of weather faxes when inverter is turned on.
--
Mad Dog

"TB" wrote in message ...
I see, so do you think that a 12v DC to 16V DC converter is the answer
then?
Tony

Mad Dog wrote:

Yes, using a 6V battery in conjunction with some very extensive
series-parallel
connections and battery isolators you could theoretically design such a
circuit.
But lets consider the source of the interference, alternators are used
insted of generators
on car and boat engines because they are lighter and smaller but
alternators
produce alternating current (A/C).
A full wave bridge rectifier consisting of trio diodes is used to
convert
A/C into D/C
and a regulator governs output from 13.8 to 14.6VDC.
what a concept huh, anyway the rectifier leaks a small amount of A/C
current into
the regulated D/C.
this small amount of A/C current (700 millivolts) is infamously known
as
A/C ripple.
In the D/C world you can call it dirty power because it will infect
every
D/C appliance
and electronic gadget that you have turned on.
A/C ripple in a D/C circuit produces NOISE and INTERFERENCE and
premature
component failure.
To compund things you are a inverter which inverts the already dirty DC
current back
into a modified square wave which resembles AC current.
****'s gittin deep over here...........
let me know if i'm going to fast 4 ya, what you need to do is condition
or
filter the Dc
current before it reaches the intended circuit.
There are 3 types of electrical storage devices: condensers,capacitors
and
batteries.
condensers store dc, capacitors store AC and you know what batteries do.
Gittin to the point a capacitor mounted in a DC circuit will block AC
while
allowing DC
current to pass, hence we have effectively filtered the DC current.
there are also different types and sizes of capacitors, depending on
it's
intended purpose.
keep in mind that DC current flows pos. to neg. thru the battery and
negative to positive thru
a circuit so what this means is grounds are just as important if not
more so
than the positive wire.
Several companies make line conditioners for your purpose, but i have
always
built my own using large banks of oil-filled electrolytic capacitors
wired
in series to handle the demand
for heavy current draw.
Hopefully i have not confused you or gave you a headache as i now have
one..........
but instead given you some insight as to why some DC components dont
function as intended
when operated from rectified AC current.
--
Mad Dog

"TB" wrote in message
...

Would it be possible to have the house and engine batteries conected in
series to give 24v, step this down to 18v to power the laptop. Then tap
off each battery for normal 12v service. Sorry if this is a dumb
question but I need a dc supply as the inverter interferes with the ssb
radio when receiving weather faxes.
Tony

Mad Dog,

Nothing in your post is correct. Best leave this to the E techs and
engineers.

Ron

Well Ron, please be so kind as to correct me..........
--
Mad Dog

"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
Mad Dog,

Nothing in your post is correct. Best leave this to the E techs and
engineers.

Ron

I'm still waiting with baited breath.........
I've been wrong before and i probably will be again,
but prove yourself please!
--
Mad Dog

"Mad Dog" wrote in message
...
Well Ron, please be so kind as to correct me..........
--
Mad Dog

"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
Mad Dog,

Nothing in your post is correct. Best leave this to the E techs and
engineers.

Ron

Mad Dog,

I was hoping one of the younger guys would step up to the plate cause I
don't think deeply about this stuff any more and I hate writing long
posts, but here goes.

Using a 6 volt battery can be done quite simply with a double pole
double throw switch. When in charge mode the 6v negative is connected
to the 12v negative and the 6v positive is connected to the 12v positive
thru a dropping resistor of suitable size. When in the 18v supply mode
the 6v negative is switched to the 12v positive and the 6v positive is
switched to the 18v output. Monitor the 6v on charge and switch to 18v
output when the 6v is charged. One of the 6v Kiddy car batteries at
WalMart would probably be enough.

The source of the interference, according to Tony, is the inverter.
This has nothing to due with the alternator.

A full wave bridge rectifier has four diodes.

AC ripple is the primary frequency of the alternating current source
used for conversion of AC to DC. Virtually all power supplies have some
of it no matter how much filtering is done and most appliances and
components will handle it unless it is at ridiculous levels which
usually means something in the power supply failed. The "dirty DC" as
you call it, has little or no thru put in an inverter. It is quite
isolated by the circuitry and the toroidal transformer used in most
modern inverters.

For about the last 75 years condensers have been components of
refrigeration equipment. In electronics, condenser and capacitor are
now the same thing. Only the auto industry still calls them condensers
(supprise, supprise).
Capacitors do not store AC. A capacitor does not block AC, it blocks DC
and passes AC.

The current flow thru the battery is irrelevant. Equal current flows
thru the negative (ground) and the positive.

A properly designed filter would dramatically reduce your need for such
large oil filled capacitors. A DC filter is comprised of capacitance
(C), reactance (R) and inductance (L). You get some filtering at low
loads with large C only because the circuit has some residual R and L,
but not much. The C component could be cut down considerably by adding
R and L but this requires some specific knowledge of electronics design
to achieve.

I believe you are confusing ripple with switching transients that come
from solid state junctions such as the transistors used in inverters and
the diodes in the alternator. These are much higher in frequency than
the 60 hertz of the AC line or the 15 to 20 thousand hertz of most
inverters (alternators are in between I believe) and will propagate as
radio waves. These frequencies could be coming into Tony's ssb by air
as easily as on the supply line. The cures, short of buying another
(probably more expensive) inverter could be to make sure the inverter
case has a good ground path ( in the engineering lab, we used braid
instead of wire, something to do with the way rf propogates on wire),
shield the inverter with another grounded enclosure and add small
capacitors (.001, .0001 mmf) between the output to ground hopefully
shunting to ground the offending interference.

Regards, Ron

(The source of the interference, according to Tony, is the inverter.
This has nothing to due with the alternator.)

Since the inverter produces a modified square-wave from the DC
coming off the alternator it certainly could....

(A full wave bridge rectifier has four diodes.)

I said it uses trio diodes...

(AC ripple is the primary frequency of the alternating current source
used for conversion of AC to DC.)

Standard AC cycles at the rate of 60 cycles per second,
AC ripple voltage is a small amount of AC mixed in with DC source,
usually 700 millivolts or less.

( The "dirty DC" as you call it, has little or no thru put in an inverter.
It is quite
isolated by the circuitry and the toroidal transformer used in most
modern inverters.)

The output from a amplifier or inverter can only be as clean as the input...

(The current flow thru the battery is irrelevant. Equal current flows
thru the negative (ground) and the positive.)

Current flows in 1 direction thru a circuit :negative to positive...

(A properly designed filter would dramatically reduce your need for such
large oil filled capacitors. )

I needed a large bank for the high current draw in my circuit...
not intended for use in this matter, just an example.

( The cures, short of buying another (probably more expensive) inverter
could be to make sure the inverter case has a good ground path ( in the
engineering lab, we used braid
instead of wire, something to do with the way rf propogates on wire),

I agree 100%, chassis grounds are critical, especially on inverters and
transceivers or any piece of electronics for that matter.
Copper braid is used because RF current travels on the surface of a
conductor rather than thru it like AC/DC.
They call it the "skin effect".

Thank you for your reply, it is nice to converse with someone of equal
talent
and interest.
I feel we have knowledge that could bestow the fellow group members,
However i am new here and i will lay low with open ears.
--
Mad Dog
KG4LBD

714 Sandpile,
The Mad Dog wavin' good bye
"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
Mad Dog,

I was hoping one of the younger guys would step up to the plate cause I
don't think deeply about this stuff any more and I hate writing long
posts, but here goes.

Using a 6 volt battery can be done quite simply with a double pole
double throw switch. When in charge mode the 6v negative is connected
to the 12v negative and the 6v positive is connected to the 12v positive
thru a dropping resistor of suitable size. When in the 18v supply mode
the 6v negative is switched to the 12v positive and the 6v positive is
switched to the 18v output. Monitor the 6v on charge and switch to 18v
output when the 6v is charged. One of the 6v Kiddy car batteries at
WalMart would probably be enough.

The source of the interference, according to Tony, is the inverter.
This has nothing to due with the alternator.

A full wave bridge rectifier has four diodes.

AC ripple is the primary frequency of the alternating current source
used for conversion of AC to DC. Virtually all power supplies have some
of it no matter how much filtering is done and most appliances and
components will handle it unless it is at ridiculous levels which
usually means something in the power supply failed. The "dirty DC" as
you call it, has little or no thru put in an inverter. It is quite
isolated by the circuitry and the toroidal transformer used in most
modern inverters.

For about the last 75 years condensers have been components of
refrigeration equipment. In electronics, condenser and capacitor are
now the same thing. Only the auto industry still calls them condensers
(supprise, supprise).
Capacitors do not store AC. A capacitor does not block AC, it blocks DC
and passes AC.

The current flow thru the battery is irrelevant. Equal current flows
thru the negative (ground) and the positive.

A properly designed filter would dramatically reduce your need for such
large oil filled capacitors. A DC filter is comprised of capacitance
(C), reactance (R) and inductance (L). You get some filtering at low
loads with large C only because the circuit has some residual R and L,
but not much. The C component could be cut down considerably by adding
R and L but this requires some specific knowledge of electronics design
to achieve.

I believe you are confusing ripple with switching transients that come
from solid state junctions such as the transistors used in inverters and
the diodes in the alternator. These are much higher in frequency than
the 60 hertz of the AC line or the 15 to 20 thousand hertz of most
inverters (alternators are in between I believe) and will propagate as
radio waves. These frequencies could be coming into Tony's ssb by air
as easily as on the supply line. The cures, short of buying another
(probably more expensive) inverter could be to make sure the inverter
case has a good ground path ( in the engineering lab, we used braid
instead of wire, something to do with the way rf propogates on wire),
shield the inverter with another grounded enclosure and add small
capacitors (.001, .0001 mmf) between the output to ground hopefully
shunting to ground the offending interference.

Regards, Ron