I have had a nice shiny Raymarine Chart plotter with the C-Map Cartography
for a year of so. Generally I am delighted. One issue that irritates me
seriously is the large number of rocks that have suddenly appeared in the
water that I have sailed for years.

They appear on the plotter as the + symbol (IHO 421.2 apparently) which
indicates "Underwater rock over which the depth is unknown, but is
considered dangerous to surface navigation". Cross referencing to my paper
charts the original symbol was R which that the Nature of the Seabed is
Rock. This is not helpful and causes hairloss to the navigator.

I also come across some soundings of 60+ metres have been charted with the +
symbol.


I am unique in suffering this problem? Is the the cartography that is
faulty or is the Raymarine unit that is causing the problem.

Any comments welcome.

Graham

A C-Map must always be considered like you would consider a 2-year-old
chart.....out of date. The longer you use it, the more out-of-date it
becomes. But, the day you bought it wasn't the current chart. It sat
on someone's shelf for months waiting for a buyer. Before that it
took time to produce and distribute. They are sold like everything
else on the shelf.....sell the oldest product first...."stock
rotation". Your marine store doesn't have a EPROM burner to update
them.

Even the charts aren't well up-to-date for obstructions like you see.
The only way it gets updated is if someone REPORTS it to the
cartographer, a long, arduous, bureaucratic sequence of desks. The
guy drawing the map only has what someone told him at the moment to go
by......sometimes very inaccurately.

When was the last time anyone here took the time to actually report a
new shoal or rock that got put on a chart? Would that be NEVER?



On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:17:00 +0100, "Graham Stephen"
wrote:

I have had a nice shiny Raymarine Chart plotter with the C-Map Cartography
for a year of so. Generally I am delighted. One issue that irritates me
seriously is the large number of rocks that have suddenly appeared in the
water that I have sailed for years.

They appear on the plotter as the + symbol (IHO 421.2 apparently) which
indicates "Underwater rock over which the depth is unknown, but is
considered dangerous to surface navigation". Cross referencing to my paper
charts the original symbol was R which that the Nature of the Seabed is
Rock. This is not helpful and causes hairloss to the navigator.

I also come across some soundings of 60+ metres have been charted with the +
symbol.


I am unique in suffering this problem? Is the the cartography that is
faulty or is the Raymarine unit that is causing the problem.

Any comments welcome.

Graham




Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

Sitting here thinking about your post and what I previously posted,
and having tried to report to USCG some new obstructions and shoals
around Charleston that were dead wrong on the charts, I did a little
internet navigating to find a direct answer......

I went to NOAA's websites and found out that, in their own words:

"Coastal Survey Maps - Precise surveys of the nation's coast and
navigable near shore waters are the primary responsibility of the
National Geodetic Survey's Remote Sensing Division. The surveys
provide shoreline data for Nautical Chart production, and accurate
geographical references needed for managing coastal resources."

At NOAA's National Ocean Service, where the maps come from, I found:

"MapFinder no longer provides preview raster images of nautical charts
or historical maps and charts. Click here for more information."

Of course, these taxpayer-supported government bureaucrats don't
actually work FOR the taxpayers paying them, sort of like the FCC, but
for the publishers of the chart business. They don't want to show you
the charts for fear you'll just print them out for your boat for free.
That wouldn't "do", would it? You're not allowed to see realtime
lightning data from the lightning data collection system YOU paid for,
either, because some company *******s are selling it for them.

If you go over to where all the charts the taxpayers pay for on:
http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/pod/Pod.htm
you'll find out why......

"NOAA, Coast Survey, in partnership with OceanGrafix, LLC, offer
mariners official nautical charts continually updated by NOAA
cartographers to the latest Notice to Mariners and to all Critical
Safety Information known to Coast Survey in advance of its publication
in a Notice. From NOAA digital files OceanGrafix prints corrected
charts, to order, for sale to mariners through the Oceangrafix retail
network under the brand name Charts-on-Demand."

Why can't I simply download the chart I want from NOAA as a
gif/tiff/jpeg of PDF file and print it on my printer? PDF will scale
it properly for me and make it perfectly usable. Oh, I forgot, it's
about the M-O-N-E-Y.....but wait!....I already PAID the money to the
IRS!

The only way you can get a new chart is to pony up to:
http://www.oceangrafix.com/products.html
through one of its retailers who are SUPPOSED to order your chart,
then Oceangrafix prints your chart with the latest info WHEN THE ORDER
IS RECEIVED and ship it back to the retailer. Of course, this makes
the chart older than it would be if you had access to the chart,
directly from the bureaucrats who produced it you paid for.

Patent Pending, it says on http://www.oceangrafix.com/products.html

In Charleston, with two West Marine, one Boat/US and one Boater's
World store, the ONLY place you can access this product is:

UK-Southwind Sailmakers, Inc.
3 Lockwood Dr.
Charleston, SC 29401
843-722-0823
fax 843-722-0822

www.uksailmakers.com/charleston

down by the city marina. Bring the plastic. Nothing UK sells is a
discount. For those trying to avoid Macromedia Flash's virus
installation, do NOT visit:
www.uksailmakers.com/charleston
as it will loop indefinately trying to install Flash on you system,
dammit. "No" option only makes it repeat the installation attempt.

There was no form to fill out at NOAA's site to update that rock,
easily. I guess you'll have to go to your Coasties office and make
out a Notice to Mariners NOAA cartographers will get in a year or two.





Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

"Graham Stephen" wrote in message
.. .
I have had a nice shiny Raymarine Chart plotter with the C-Map Cartography
for a year of so. Generally I am delighted. One issue that irritates me
seriously is the large number of rocks that have suddenly appeared in the
water that I have sailed for years.

They appear on the plotter as the + symbol (IHO 421.2 apparently) which
indicates "Underwater rock over which the depth is unknown, but is
considered dangerous to surface navigation". Cross referencing to my
paper
charts the original symbol was R which that the Nature of the Seabed is
Rock. This is not helpful and causes hairloss to the navigator.

I also come across some soundings of 60+ metres have been charted with the
+
symbol.


I am unique in suffering this problem? Is the the cartography that is
faulty or is the Raymarine unit that is causing the problem.

Any comments welcome.

Graham


Many of these "rocks" are of interest only to the officers on supertankers
drawing 10-15 metres fully laden. Does your own vessel draw such a depth?

--
Remove "nospam" from return address.

Sorry - I failed to make my point clear - Somewhere in the digitisation the
symbol for a rock bottom that is way deeper than the draught of any
conventional surface vessel has turned in to the symbol for a rock that is
dangerous to surface navigation.

I am a sad person who corrects his paper charts, so I know that they are
slightly out of date rather than very out of date. I am still trying to
work out a policy that I can afford for updating the electronic charts.
Effectively paying two license fees for the same information irritates me.
(I am a Scot)

My patch is in a area where the legend "Unsurveyed" appears on charts.
Other parts of the chart may have been surveyed by a man, who might have
sailed under Nelson in his childhood, in small boat with a lump of lead on a
piece of string. He certainly did not have the luxury of GPS when he made
the chart so we cannot rely heavily on the accuracy of our own systems.

My charts regularly get updated with NMs where people have reported
"uncharted features". I have done this myself. There is a form H.102 for
doing it. They are not usually very significant as no master of ship would
take his ship anywhere on a 150 year old survey where there is any risk of a
surprise (hopefully!)

I am still unsure whether the problem is a C-Map or Raymarine issue - I
suspect the former. I would not risk my life on the electronic charts!!!

Graham




"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
A C-Map must always be considered like you would consider a 2-year-old
chart.....out of date. The longer you use it, the more out-of-date it
becomes. But, the day you bought it wasn't the current chart. It sat
on someone's shelf for months waiting for a buyer. Before that it
took time to produce and distribute. They are sold like everything
else on the shelf.....sell the oldest product first...."stock
rotation". Your marine store doesn't have a EPROM burner to update
them.

Even the charts aren't well up-to-date for obstructions like you see.
The only way it gets updated is if someone REPORTS it to the
cartographer, a long, arduous, bureaucratic sequence of desks. The
guy drawing the map only has what someone told him at the moment to go
by......sometimes very inaccurately.

When was the last time anyone here took the time to actually report a
new shoal or rock that got put on a chart? Would that be NEVER?



On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:17:00 +0100, "Graham Stephen"
wrote:

I have had a nice shiny Raymarine Chart plotter with the C-Map
Cartography
for a year of so. Generally I am delighted. One issue that irritates me
seriously is the large number of rocks that have suddenly appeared in the
water that I have sailed for years.

They appear on the plotter as the + symbol (IHO 421.2 apparently) which
indicates "Underwater rock over which the depth is unknown, but is
considered dangerous to surface navigation". Cross referencing to my
paper
charts the original symbol was R which that the Nature of the Seabed is
Rock. This is not helpful and causes hairloss to the navigator.

I also come across some soundings of 60+ metres have been charted with
the +
symbol.


I am unique in suffering this problem? Is the the cartography that is
faulty or is the Raymarine unit that is causing the problem.

Any comments welcome.

Graham




Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:18:05 +0100, "Graham Stephen"
wrote:

I am still unsure whether the problem is a C-Map or Raymarine issue - I
suspect the former. I would not risk my life on the electronic charts!!!

Graham

Ah, now I see. On our side of the pond, we also pay twice for the
charts. The government steals our money from us to develop the
charts, then turns it over to a commercial company so they can sell
our own charts back to us for fun and profit. (One side of me is
Scot, the other Irish....through Ellis Island, the NY ghettos to
upstate where both families were farmers and railroad workers, late
1800's-1900's.)

Even by the time the printed charts are produced electronically they
are quite old, going through all these bureaucracies before you get
them. It would help, immensely, if someone really took the time to
make SURE our reports to the various coast guards actually produced a
change on them when a boater takes the time to give them as accurate
information as he can.



Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

Can't you just configure your Raymarine to not display this type of info? My
C-map plotter offers numerous configuration options, including one that
won't display seabed information; there are many options that let you choose
what you want displayed.
Another possibility lies in updating your Raymarine plotter's operating
software; it may help and if not, you're getting the latest OS with new
functions anyway. Contact Paul at www.c-map.co.uk ; he may be able to tell
whether there's an update for your C-map OS (they're made by C-map not
Raymarine). You could also post your message on the forum of the same web
site.

Marco


"Graham Stephen" wrote in message
.. .
I have had a nice shiny Raymarine Chart plotter with the C-Map Cartography
for a year of so. Generally I am delighted. One issue that irritates me
seriously is the large number of rocks that have suddenly appeared in the
water that I have sailed for years.

They appear on the plotter as the + symbol (IHO 421.2 apparently) which
indicates "Underwater rock over which the depth is unknown, but is
considered dangerous to surface navigation". Cross referencing to my
paper
charts the original symbol was R which that the Nature of the Seabed is
Rock. This is not helpful and causes hairloss to the navigator.

I also come across some soundings of 60+ metres have been charted with the
+
symbol.


I am unique in suffering this problem? Is the the cartography that is
faulty or is the Raymarine unit that is causing the problem.

Any comments welcome.

Graham