On 2008-11-06 09:02:58 -0500, Geoff Schultz said:

Based upon research that we've done so far (which isn't extensive), the
vinyl comes uncoated and the distributor can apply foam to it before
shipping. Can I apply it directly to the plywood and if so, what are
the downsides of doing that?

Watch spray glues as most have a "life" as well. Some that are just
fine for automotive restoration will fail in a few years' exposure to
the marine environment.

Gluing directly to a fixed surface will be very difficult to get right.
Inevitably, there will be some wrinkles at first, more later.

Brainstorming, I'm flashing on the older materials used to back liners
and upholstery. Something with "give" that will give a smooth finish,
but won't so quickly break down. Some sort of felt comes to mind, but
I'm sure there are modern equivalents I'm not aware of.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:00:00 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

wrote in :

On Thu, 06 Nov 2008 08:02:58 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Sorry, but I'm posting another on-topic question regarding boats
instead of politics, global warming or general name calling...

My vinyl headliner is sagging in some locations due to the foam
backing deteriorating. Obviously this has been one of the down sides
of storing the boat in the Caribbean during hurricane season.

The headliner was glued on to 1/8" plywood which is held in place by
tension or mouldings. The problem started when the boat was only
about 8 years old, so as a result I'm very leery of replacing the
existing headliner with another foam backed vinyl product, but I do
want to utilize a product that has the same look as the current
product. There were some locations where the headliner was installed
and then cabinets were built in-place under them. Due to the small
spans in these locations, the headliner is in good shape and it would
take a huge effort to remove the cabinets and gain access.

So, my basic question is: What is the purpose of the foam on the
vinyl material? Based upon research that we've done so far (which
isn't extensive), the vinyl comes uncoated and the distributor can
apply foam to it before shipping. Can I apply it directly to the
plywood and if so, what are the downsides of doing that?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org


Use better foam that doesn't deteriorate. It exists.

My experience with foam is that it all deteriorates, some just faster than
others. I'm not a foam expert. How does one judge the longevity of foam?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org


The foam/vinyl I was referring to, and I think is the type normally
used in boats, is an auto product. I can buy it at any shop supplying
auto upholstery work. The foam is part of a vinyl/foam sandwich and is
bonded together in some manner. Probably using separate foam and vinyl
layers is going to cause significant problems in installing.

for some reason your 7 - 10 year life sounds small. The headliner in
my boat is certainly older then ten years as I have owned the boat for
that long and have not replaced the vinyl/foam material. In fact I
replaced a small section in the head where a ventilator had leaked and
reused the old material to cover the new ply panel as the old
material was still in good condition.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 18:17:27 -0500, "Garland Gray"
wrote:

Geoff,
I assume you have what was on our old catamaran, open cell foam backed
vinyl. It was just glued to the fiberglass, and heat plus age caused it to
break down to dust, and fall off. This began when the boat was 7 or 8 years
old, starting first in the main cabin where it got the hottest. Re-gluing
wouldn't work.

About 12 years ago I replaced it with a solid vinyl headliner material that
I bought from Defender Industries. IIRC, it was 1/10 inch thick and hid
irregularities, but I don't see it in the 2008 catalog. I got a lot (still
have some on the roll), so it was drop shipped from a distributor in Seattle
I think, by the name of Haughton Marine or something like that. I thought it
looked quite good, and expected it to last much longer than the original, so
if you could find it, I would recommend it.

Whatever you end up with, if you use glue, try to get 3M water base contact
cement from an auto parts store. Solvent based contact cement dissolves
vinyl. Water based costs about 2 1/2 times as much, but goes twice as far,
and doesn't kill you with the fumes.

I'll check my records tomorrow to see if I have any more info on the
material. I also have some old samples of headliner material I got from
Sailrite. Might check with them.


Call Defender if this sounds like something that will work for you,
Geoff. They are very good at getting just about anything you can
describe to them. Since they used to carry it, they may still, or know
where to get it. They have a lot of stuff that is not on the website.

On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 18:17:27 -0500, "Garland Gray"
wrote:

Geoff,
I assume you have what was on our old catamaran, open cell foam backed
vinyl. It was just glued to the fiberglass, and heat plus age caused it to
break down to dust, and fall off. This began when the boat was 7 or 8 years
old, starting first in the main cabin where it got the hottest. Re-gluing
wouldn't work.

About 12 years ago I replaced it with a solid vinyl headliner material that
I bought from Defender Industries. IIRC, it was 1/10 inch thick and hid
irregularities, but I don't see it in the 2008 catalog. I got a lot (still
have some on the roll), so it was drop shipped from a distributor in Seattle
I think, by the name of Haughton Marine or something like that. I thought it
looked quite good, and expected it to last much longer than the original, so
if you could find it, I would recommend it.

Whatever you end up with, if you use glue, try to get 3M water base contact
cement from an auto parts store. Solvent based contact cement dissolves
vinyl. Water based costs about 2 1/2 times as much, but goes twice as far,
and doesn't kill you with the fumes.

I'll check my records tomorrow to see if I have any more info on the
material. I also have some old samples of headliner material I got from
Sailrite. Might check with them.


If you can find some details I'd be quite interested as I am
refurbishing a power boat and there are two cabins where the overhead
is smooth enough to glue some sort of liner directly to the existing
surface. I had been thinking of formica but that certainly will look a
bit plasticy. If there is something better I would prefer to try it.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:58:07 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

If you can find some details I'd be quite interested as I am
refurbishing a power boat and there are two cabins where the overhead
is smooth enough to glue some sort of liner directly to the existing
surface. I had been thinking of formica but that certainly will look a
bit plasticy. If there is something better I would prefer to try it.

http://tinyurl.com/56ye8y

Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:58:07 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

If you can find some details I'd be quite interested as I am
refurbishing a power boat and there are two cabins where the overhead
is smooth enough to glue some sort of liner directly to the existing
surface. I had been thinking of formica but that certainly will look a
bit plasticy. If there is something better I would prefer to try it.

http://tinyurl.com/56ye8y

Along the lines of the Soundown shown in the above url I was thinking of
a foam used in packaging. It is called Ethafoam, it is white or light
blue, resilient, closed cell, and can be gotten in various thicknesses.
Actually there are many foam types that might work well in this
application. They would certainly be much better than the old open cell
foam of old.
- Here is a link for Ethafoam but there are many around:
http://metrofoam.com.au/ethafoam-220.html
- This one is slightly rigid but there should be no problem bending it
to comply to the slight curvatures or the cabin contour:
http://www.modernplastics.com/may05/wdfoam.html
- This is a link for EVA foam. Pretty good stuff too:
http://metrofoam.com.au/eva-foam.html
- Blurb on open-cell vs closed-cell foams:
http://www.foam-tech.com/products/ur...losed_cell.htm
- Here a site with various foams: http://www.closedcellfoams.com/

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:27:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:58:07 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

If you can find some details I'd be quite interested as I am
refurbishing a power boat and there are two cabins where the overhead
is smooth enough to glue some sort of liner directly to the existing
surface. I had been thinking of formica but that certainly will look a
bit plasticy. If there is something better I would prefer to try it.

http://tinyurl.com/56ye8y


Thanks.
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
.. .
Sorry, but I'm posting another on-topic question regarding boats instead
of
politics, global warming or general name calling...

My vinyl headliner is sagging in some locations due to the foam backing
deteriorating. Obviously this has been one of the down sides of storing
the boat in the Caribbean during hurricane season.

The headliner was glued on to 1/8" plywood which is held in place by
tension or mouldings. The problem started when the boat was only about 8
years old, so as a result I'm very leery of replacing the existing
headliner with another foam backed vinyl product, but I do want to utilize
a product that has the same look as the current product. There were some
locations where the headliner was installed and then cabinets were built
in-place under them. Due to the small spans in these locations, the
headliner is in good shape and it would take a huge effort to remove the
cabinets and gain access.

So, my basic question is: What is the purpose of the foam on the vinyl
material? Based upon research that we've done so far (which isn't
extensive), the vinyl comes uncoated and the distributor can apply foam to
it before shipping. Can I apply it directly to the plywood and if so,
what
are the downsides of doing that?


I hate to say it but anybody who buys a boat with the type of headliner you
have deserves the problems you have. Vinyl headliners are indicative of
low-end, entry level boats. There NEVER has been one put in that lasts more
than a dozen years or so, if that. They are lubberly and gross.

The solution to your problem is to do it right like the factory should have
done it right in the first place. Get rid of it. Rip it all out and replace
it with GRP and gel-coat. Until and unless you get serious about installing
a real overhead you will still be sailing a boat built like a car- to last
about ten years. Unacceptable.

Let this be a lesson to anybody looking to buy a boat. Just say no to vinyl
or any other sort of "cover up" overhead liner.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Garland Gray" wrote in
:

Geoff,
I assume you have what was on our old catamaran, open cell foam backed
vinyl. It was just glued to the fiberglass, and heat plus age caused
it to break down to dust, and fall off. This began when the boat was 7
or 8 years old, starting first in the main cabin where it got the
hottest. Re-gluing wouldn't work.

About 12 years ago I replaced it with a solid vinyl headliner material
that I bought from Defender Industries. IIRC, it was 1/10 inch thick
and hid irregularities, but I don't see it in the 2008 catalog. I got
a lot (still have some on the roll), so it was drop shipped from a
distributor in Seattle I think, by the name of Haughton Marine or
something like that. I thought it looked quite good, and expected it
to last much longer than the original, so if you could find it, I
would recommend it.

Whatever you end up with, if you use glue, try to get 3M water base
contact cement from an auto parts store. Solvent based contact cement
dissolves vinyl. Water based costs about 2 1/2 times as much, but goes
twice as far, and doesn't kill you with the fumes.

I'll check my records tomorrow to see if I have any more info on the
material. I also have some old samples of headliner material I got
from Sailrite. Might check with them.


"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
.. .
Sorry, but I'm posting another on-topic question regarding boats
instead of
politics, global warming or general name calling...

My vinyl headliner is sagging in some locations due to the foam
backing deteriorating. Obviously this has been one of the down sides
of storing the boat in the Caribbean during hurricane season.

The headliner was glued on to 1/8" plywood which is held in place by
tension or mouldings. The problem started when the boat was only
about 8 years old, so as a result I'm very leery of replacing the
existing headliner with another foam backed vinyl product, but I do
want to utilize a product that has the same look as the current
product. There were some locations where the headliner was installed
and then cabinets were built in-place under them. Due to the small
spans in these locations, the headliner is in good shape and it would
take a huge effort to remove the cabinets and gain access.

So, my basic question is: What is the purpose of the foam on the
vinyl material? Based upon research that we've done so far (which
isn't extensive), the vinyl comes uncoated and the distributor can
apply foam to it before shipping. Can I apply it directly to the
plywood and if so, what
are the downsides of doing that?

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been doing more research and right now
I'm leaning towards using NaugaSoft, which has a fabric based backing
material which shouldn't deteriorate.

http://www.naugahyde.com/productline.asp?id=17

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

On 7 Nov 2008 09:46:07 -0600, Dave wrote:

A great web site to read for fun. I still have one of the original Naugas
from around 1980 when Naugahyde was made by Uniroyal. (In, of course,
Naugatuck.)

Was PETA aware of this wanton slaughter of Naugas going on in
Connecticut? I'm surprised they didn't have picket lines up and down
the NE corridor.