Steve, we are the only free, industrialized country without universal
health care. Countries with less wealth that the US can provide their
citizens with proper care and so should the US. There is way too much
waste in government. Illegal wars, like Iraq which costing something
like ten billion a month, and that's estimated to cost trillions
before we're done are just a few things that are using Americans hard
earned tax dollars unwisely and immorally.

Americans pay over 40% of their hard earned money in various obvious
and hidden taxes and yet get less back in goods and services than any
other modern, free, industrialized country in the world.

It's time for true change - a vert smart, calm, non divisive,
respected man who can bring this country together, bring America back
to the good reputation she once held world wide and end this illegal
and immoral war in Iraq.

In the past 8 years the percentage of wealth in the hands of the
wealthy has skyrocketed and the percentage of income (buying power),
in the average person has dropped greatly.

It's said a country gets the leaders it deserves based on the level of
consciousness of its citizens. I hope enough Americans have grown
spiritually, emotionally and intellectually, to elect a person who has
their best interest and the world's at heart - Obama.


Regards,
June

June,
I do not dispute your observations, but they are too superficial and
incomplete. First there are no successful government supplied health
systems....anywhere. They are all bankrupt and unaffordable. Secondly, you
may shop at K Mart, but you would not do that for your health. The free
health care these systems offer are less than adequate. The treatments
offered are subject to cost and limited to only those approved by the
government. Do you think it is OK to limit procedures based on age? It
happens. Of course there should be universal health care, but it must be
based on affordability, efficiency and offered quality. The plans offered
are not even close. They are in fact, pie in the sky. Change is great. We
certainly need it, but only if it adds value.

Please ask yourself why we pay such a high rate of tax. Are you aware of the
percentage of our taxes that are used just for the maintenance of our
federal debt? How about state, county or city debt? This debt has been
created by selfish, irresponsible lawmakers we voted in. Look at your own
debt. Consider the cost of interest you are paying for your mortgage, your
car and your credit cards. What percentage of your income do you pay for
debt maintenance? Both the American Government and the American population
have been and still is, living beyond their means. Please address that
problem.

Before you criticize the war efforts and their cost, please realize the cost
of losing our financial stability by attacks on our financial system or our
currency. Our national strength and in fact, our entire way of life is at
stake. You cannot see these problems because our media is restricting this
critical information by exclusion. You live in the States and are oblivious
to this. I live in Europe at the moment and in Asia before this. I get to
see the difference, you don't. Please notice that I have not asked you to
vote either way, that is your business. Neither candidate can fix this. It
may not be fixable. This problem will only get worse with time. Each one of
us must change the way we do business and force common sense onto our
leadership by voting for common sense and fiscal responsibility, not free
lunch. This is not a time to let emotion override logic.
Steve

On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:59:33 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote in alt.atheism:

June,
I do not dispute your observations, but they are too superficial and
incomplete. First there are no successful government supplied health
systems....anywhere.

You are flat out wrong not only do they work throughout the world but
they even work in the USA. Until the Bush Administration, intent on
proving that government cannot work by destroying the institutions that
did work, gutted the VA and military health systems, they were superior
to most other hospitals in the United States. I have no idea if your
claim came from ignorance or politically motivated dishonesty, though
the rest of your post implies that dishonesty was at work.

....

My claim comes from 25 years of personal experience. I have lived and worked
all over Europe and I am telling you public health IS a failure everywhere.
Your opinion is based on what? Perhaps books, magazines, TV or was it some
idealist talking trash. Please note my previous comment about the American
biased media. You are being sucked in. Come over here and experiece the
failure yourself. Pay the 55% tax, experience the waiting lines or the
denial of treatment or a drug, because it isn't approved. Watch your
neighbor suffer for a year or more because there is no room in your
designated hospital or die because the appropriate treatment is too
expensive for a person of age. Public health is not the solution for
universal health. This lesson has been learned.
Steve

"Free Lunch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:59:33 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote in alt.atheism:

June,
I do not dispute your observations, but they are too superficial and
incomplete. First there are no successful government supplied health
systems....anywhere.

You are flat out wrong not only do they work throughout the world but
they even work in the USA. Until the Bush Administration, intent on
proving that government cannot work by destroying the institutions that
did work, gutted the VA and military health systems, they were superior
to most other hospitals in the United States. I have no idea if your
claim came from ignorance or politically motivated dishonesty, though
the rest of your post implies that dishonesty was at work.

...

On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:22:25 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote in alt.atheism:

My claim comes from 25 years of personal experience. I have lived and worked
all over Europe and I am telling you public health IS a failure everywhere.
Your opinion is based on what? Perhaps books, magazines, TV or was it some
idealist talking trash. Please note my previous comment about the American
biased media. You are being sucked in. Come over here and experiece the
failure yourself. Pay the 55% tax, experience the waiting lines or the
denial of treatment or a drug, because it isn't approved. Watch your
neighbor suffer for a year or more because there is no room in your
designated hospital or die because the appropriate treatment is too
expensive for a person of age. Public health is not the solution for
universal health. This lesson has been learned.
Steve

Your claims don't match the docomentation.

"Free Lunch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:59:33 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote in alt.atheism:

June,
I do not dispute your observations, but they are too superficial and
incomplete. First there are no successful government supplied health
systems....anywhere.

You are flat out wrong not only do they work throughout the world but
they even work in the USA. Until the Bush Administration, intent on
proving that government cannot work by destroying the institutions that
did work, gutted the VA and military health systems, they were superior
to most other hospitals in the United States. I have no idea if your
claim came from ignorance or politically motivated dishonesty, though
the rest of your post implies that dishonesty was at work.

...

Free Lunch wrote:
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:22:25 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote in alt.atheism:

My claim comes from 25 years of personal experience. I have lived and worked
all over Europe and I am telling you public health IS a failure everywhere.
Your opinion is based on what? Perhaps books, magazines, TV or was it some
idealist talking trash. Please note my previous comment about the American
biased media. You are being sucked in. Come over here and experiece the
failure yourself. Pay the 55% tax, experience the waiting lines or the
denial of treatment or a drug, because it isn't approved. Watch your
neighbor suffer for a year or more because there is no room in your
designated hospital or die because the appropriate treatment is too
expensive for a person of age. Public health is not the solution for
universal health. This lesson has been learned.
Steve

Your claims don't match the docomentation.

Doesn't match my experience living my entire life in a country with
universal health care.

Everyone gets the same treatment. No one dies because they don't have
enough money. It may take longer to get elective or non-emergency
surgeries/appointments etc....but if it's an emergency, it gets treated
now. Cancer patients are not waiting months for chemo. They are not sent
home to die because they can't afford the medication or surgeries. My
mother's friend is in her 70s and has survived two bouts of breast
cancer. My father survived prostrate cancer. They still own their homes,
had their medications covered if it exceeded 10% of their income and now
live their lives as they did before they got sick.

A relative with leukemia survived it almost 30 years ago...getting an
"experimental treatment" called a bone marrow transplant. Today, in the
US, insurance companies will fight having to cover "experimental
treatment." If he were American, he'd be dead now.

I may have to wait for some things...six weeks for my knee surgery, for
example. But I knew I was going to get it. No fighting with insurance
companies. No worrying that they'd label anything "pre-existing." No
worry they would deny medications or the surgery itself.

I'll take universal health care over the US system any day!!!

..
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us.

"Steve Lusardi" skrev i melding
...
My claim comes from 25 years of personal experience. I have lived and
worked all over Europe and I am telling you public health IS a failure
everywhere. Your opinion is based on what? Perhaps books, magazines, TV or
was it some idealist talking trash. Please note my previous comment about
the American biased media. You are being sucked in. Come over here and
experiece the failure yourself. Pay the 55% tax, experience the waiting
lines or the denial of treatment or a drug, because it isn't approved.
Watch your neighbor suffer for a year or more because there is no room in
your designated hospital or die because the appropriate treatment is too
expensive for a person of age. Public health is not the solution for
universal health. This lesson has been learned.
Steve


I suggest that you never lived in Europe, or that your memory is failing
you.
I live in Norway, my annual income is around $ 100 000.
The tax I pay is around 30%, this is including health insurance and pension.
If I visit my doctor I pay a small fee, as I also do for medicine,
but expences exciding $200 a year are free. Hospital is free, you may have
to wait a few weeks depending on your illness. My mother who is
85 waited 4 weeks for a hip operation, which of course war free, as was 4
weeks in a nursing home after the operation.
When I retire I will get a pension of £35 000 per year, not so much, but as
we have progessiv taxasion the tax will be low.
Of course if you want additional and privat insurance or pension that is up
to you.
I think we are in line with most European countries, I have not heard
anything near to your story. Even former Eastern Europe had a good and free
health care.
And as this also is a cruising NG that I follow, I will mention that i have
a sailboat, Kelt 850.
Jan

"Jan" wrote in
:

I suggest that you never lived in Europe, or that your memory is
failing you.
I live in Norway, my annual income is around $ 100 000.
The tax I pay is around 30%, this is including health insurance and
pension. If I visit my doctor I pay a small fee, as I also do for
medicine, but expences exciding $200 a year are free. Hospital is
free, you may have to wait a few weeks depending on your illness. My
mother who is 85 waited 4 weeks for a hip operation, which of course
war free, as was 4 weeks in a nursing home after the operation.
When I retire I will get a pension of œ35 000 per year, not so much,
but as we have progessiv taxasion the tax will be low.
Of course if you want additional and privat insurance or pension that
is up to you.
I think we are in line with most European countries, I have not heard
anything near to your story. Even former Eastern Europe had a good and
free health care.
And as this also is a cruising NG that I follow, I will mention that i
have a sailboat, Kelt 850.
Jan




Jan, my apologies for the Americans' view of socialized medicine
expressed to you. They are under constant, heavy pressure by the
billionaire doctors' union, the American Medical Association, who has a
lot to lose if Americans ever get any kind of socialized medicine that
doesn't leave the poor bleeding in the streets. Many of the posters
here are those very rich American doctors sailing their new yachts as a
result of the American system of massive payments for the most mediocre
medical service, while the other major criminals in the medical
business, the insurance companies between the doctors' riches and the
victims' wallets skim off as much or maybe more than the doctors get...a
double taxation on the working class buying medical insurance. Medical
insurance companies do not become amazingly rich by paying doctor and
hospital bills of sick people. On the contrary, medical insurance
companies want nothing to do with any kind of medical risk patients,
only the medically fit that don't make large claims with the resources
to pay large insurance premiums for no service, thousands per month.
This medical burden also causes EMPLOYERS' to flee under the heavy load
of the American medical profession's love of wealth, the reason
everything that used to be made in America has now moved off to more
socialized countries of Asia and Europe where employers don't have to
pay outrageous medical insurance premiums to enrich the medical and
insurance classes.

Noone in America gives a **** about providing healthcare to the poor,
the unemployed, old retired people....unless they band together and
throw politicians into the street, of course.

You'll never convince any Americans who've never been the beneficiaries
of another country's socialist medical system, like the systems in
civilized European countries, that anything good comes out of them.
They've always been told otherwise by the Ministry of Propaganda known
as American News Media.

The concept of paying doctors bonuses to PREVENT diseases in the first
place is totally foreign to them. Doctors make money here by making
people SICK, heavily dosing them with recurrant drugs at exhorbitant
prices to keep them on the hook, so to speak, just like any drug dealer
on the street.

I have a saying, "Well people don't make payments on waterfront
property." Well people don't have to pay doctors, so are not the big
cash cow. SICK people make doctors billionaires. The country is loaded
up with hypocondriacs (sp??) who are just SO proud of their last $70,000
operation they can't wait to tell you all about it. My parents were two
of them. The day my father died, his pharmacist lost $8000/month in
prescription sales, alone. His doctor lost thousands, too. He was one
of the "science project" patients that keep paying and paying and
paying...for that waterfront mansion they live in and the new Mercedes
in their garages....

ON TOPIC - Not to mention their new Beneteau at the finest marina in the
city....(c;

Larry wrote:


Noone in America gives a **** about providing healthcare to the poor,
the unemployed, old retired people....unless they band together and
throw politicians into the street, of course.

Therein lies a big part of the problem. Americans hate poor people. They
think they're all lazy bums who have no ambition.

I think Matthew Fox put it perfectly on "Lost"

Live together or die alone.

Americans have to understand that they would be stronger as a nation, as
a people if they helped those that can't help themselves. Not all the
poor are lazy bums.

..


--

We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCYW4ScUnw

the VA and military health systems, they were superior
to most other hospitals in the United States.

You've apparently never been in a VA hospital.