Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12

When we left you, we were rolling up to the City Marina, about 7
hours into our 6th day, to take on some fuel in Charleston,
having burned 51 hours worth, which worked out to 71 gallons.
Not our idea of fun financially, but it got us around Hatteras in
the weather window we wanted, which was to say entirely benign,
belieing the usual terror that passage induces in experienced
cruisers and sailors contemplating it. Once clear of Hatteras,
we worked entirely on the wind we had to get here, as seen in my
prior postings. Now that we're here, and enjoying the citywide
free wifi, Lydia's experimenting with Picasa. She's put up a few
pix of the passage to Charleston...

http://picasaweb.google.com/lafell/S...h100108100708#


We enjoyed being tied to the dock, where the security guy who
rolled up in his golf cart as we approached and were tying off
said it would be fine to do that, but definitely didn't expect
the blindsiding hourly charge they laid on us when I went to pay
for the fuel, especially the one where the fuel guys, despite our
having been logged in for being there exclusively to fuel, didn't
show up on our end of the dock until half an hour after opening,
and then spent more than an hour fueling a big sportfish which
landed just after us, but made us pay for that time, too.

Our friend Larry, one of our Angels, happened to have breakfast
the next day with a city councilman who was unaware of the
practices of the City-owned marina, and was apoplectic about it.
Perhaps that will change in the future. With nearly all of the
face dock empty, and our departure immediately after fueling, we
certainly didn't induce any extra cost to the operation.

Larry's take on the City Marina is that they - and the city -
ought to be encouraging, by whatever means, folks to come spend
money which benefits the city, including making it easy for them
to do that. Charging what amounted to a 50 cent premium for
diesel fuel (the sportfish who took on over 2000 gallons made
their hourly dockage incidental) just for tying up and having to
wait until they got around to us didn't warm the cockles of my
heart.

We anchored out in an area just inside the confluence of the
Ashley River and the Wapoo Creek, which minimizes the tidal
influence on us, allowing us to swing more to the wind, and we've
loved being out here. During our time in Charleston, Larry has
helped us by resolving a problem with our wind instrument, trying
to troubleshoot some inverter-induced problems, and generally
acting as taxi driver and tour guide as we muddle through various
purchases and returns of stuff not needed or inadequate to the
task.

As I write, on Thursday night, he's looking at a couple of
handheld VHF radios of ours which display some connection
problems. If we could have found it (it's mysteriously not where
we thought it was), he'd have also looked into what we presume to
be a power supply issue on a digital tape video camera. If time
allows, perhaps Saturday he'll be able to help us troubleshoot
some inverter-induced noise on various electronics, and some
potential connection problems with the wind instrument.

FWIW, Larry is the one who started me down the path to the very
successful WiFi configuration aboard Flying Pig. He's a
consummate electronics geek who enjoys buying supposedly dead,
very valuable stuff, at thrift stores, and making gold out of
lead.

Having come in for fuel, anyway, we took advantage of the forced
landing to avoid some very nasty weather. We could have easily
taken it, but, if you have to be stopped, anyway, letting it blow
out, and waiting for more clement conditions made a lot of sense.
The fact of all the help Larry provided is a distinct bonus. At
this particular moment (Thursday, October 9, almost tomorrow), we
don't really know when we'll leave, and have not even looked at
the weather downstream.

We're waiting for a reply from one of our Saints which may divert
our course from a nonstop to a one-stop, doing some payback in
Saint Simons Island, with him and another of the Saints who also
has a home and a boat there. If we make that stop, you'll hear
about it in a future posting...

As I write this part, on Saturday night, we are, indeed, going to
Saint Simons, so our one-jump Miami passage will be at least a
2-stopper. While we're there, I'll dive an anchor which fouled
(but he buoyed off) a couple of years ago, and help him set up a
mooring in that location. He may join me for the trip to Miami,
with Lydia and his wife driving down together - or not, depending
on circumstance, but either way, we'll enjoy the time together
with them.

Saturday I did more boat chores, cleaning out the engine pan (the
sub-bilge area under the engine) and installing another set of
oil-absorbing mats, taking another set of hydrometer readings on
our batteries (we have no dead cells and all the batteries are
pretty close in range of each other, a good sign), and getting
the halyards ready to hoist me to the top of the mast to manually
rotate the wind vane to see what happened below.

As it turned out, while we expected to get together with Larry
again, he's under the weather (lots of it around here!), and by
the time I'd resecured the halyards, we saw that the wind
instrument was, apparently, working properly. It's possible that
the prior lighting wires were contacting the post on which the
arrow turned, limiting its movement - or, it could have been my
applying Corrosion Block to the connector at the base of the
mast. In any case, at least for the moment, all is well with the
wind instrument, and thanks to Larry's help, we can see it in the
dark, as well.

Back to Larry, as it turned out, our handheld VHF radio problems
were only that the rechargeable batteries are toast - they work
just fine with fresh AA batteries in the other battery carrier
which replaces the rechargeable. And, this morning, he scored
another of his 99 cent gold-from-lead purchases at the thrift
store, bringing home a multi-hundred dollar Seth Thomas Quartz
Clock.

Now that he's got it home, he's looked into it and it was made in
the early 70's, one of the first quartz clocks, with the ability
to adjust the time in 5-second increments. He made a couple of
very minor repairs and it works perfectly. He's a very happy
camper, having scored a couple more of his bargains in the same
trip. He's previously, in the same shop, bought a very handsome
German key-wound striking clock which he quickly made work upon
bringing it to his home, and countless other amazing deals.
Every time he tells about one, I wish that I had access to that
place, as it's clearly flabbergasting in its finds; marine gear,
electronics, cameras and countless other wonders show up all the
time. As a prior-life packrat, I'm envious to the level of
bilious :{))

After our 1-2-3's (the boat chores), we feasted on the first of
the tuna we'd put in the freezer. The winds here are building,
so the grill blew out a couple of times, when I raised the lid,
but relit and stayed lit once the cover was back on. Tonight
(Sunday noon, as I write), we'll enjoy another feast, assuming we
can keep the grill lit!

The winds at the moment are 20-25, gust to 30, but the direction
is such that the land mass on which both Ashley and City Marinas
are located are between us and the mainland, which makes for a
relatively calm water state, given that we're only about a half
mile away. Where we're anchored has a shelf/shoal where we've
nestled the last few nights, as the wind was in a different
direction. We presume we've been "aground" (only at dead low
tide) because we don't swing, but if it's aground, it's so soft
that we don't feel it, other than the somewhat-larger-than-normal
list from the wind. Perhaps it's the "pluff mud" which is on the
other shore - so soft that if you fall off the dock into it
you're up to your waist. A very nice anchorage, with the anchor
in ~20 feet of water and our usual depth being somewhat over 8-10
feet depending on where we've swung.

We went over to shore to fuel the Honda Genset and its fuel can,
as well as to scrape some of the past couple of days' effluvia
off ourselves in the showers, during the above mentioned blow and
spitting rain showers. Refreshed, we retired to the boat to chow
down on some more of the amazing tuna, but given the weather
circumstances, elected to, instead of the grill, use our sauté
pan. YUM!

Tuesday morning dawned clear and relatively calm in the
anchorage, and at 06:30 I got on the SSB with Chris Parker, our
weather router. He said, unlike ashore, things were pretty rough
outside, but subsiding steadily, to the point where there would
be little wind at all on Wednesday.

So, despite it being relatively rough (large waves, fairly high
winds, initially), short of driving it (you know how we hate
driving instead of sailing), today is still the day to go. So,
anticipating a single reef and staysail as adequate to the task,
but probably shaking out the reef and putting out the genoa
later, as the winds died, we prepared to get under way.

As we reflect on our time aboard Flying Pig, when we first took
possession of the boat and headed out from Fort Lauderdale, the
conditions were worse, so this really is of no great event, other
than it's not "perfect" - and yet, if NOAA's predictions are
right on, it may be, for us, "perfect" - our course of travel
should make the winds a broad or beam reach, and with a reef and
staysail, very comfortable level of heel. We'll see about that,
of course, and update over Sailmail in a day or so.



Our shortened track, as we arrived well before a full day had
elapsed, was only about 30 miles on this leg. Yet, that averaged
out, including the doldrums on the way to the dock once we got up
the channel, to about 5 knots. Pretty good day, all in all :{))
We'll see how day 7 pans out - it may be just a very long day...

So, as we leave you, we're heading out to Saint Simons Island.
We're expecting between 24 and 36 hours of passage to the inlet,
but it's another several hours up the channel and river to our
anchorage as well as out to our turning point from here in the
anchorage to the channel entrance in Charleston; if the weather
holds, we could be at the Saint Simons Island inlet in less than
a day. If you care to track us in real
time, you can do so at
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/f...PLcZGvSb3 nMe...
If you're interested in the weather we're seeing, you can look at
http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/350.html?MR=1 and /352 and
/354 (change the number before the .html for different areas),
for the area we'll travel on the next leg.

Stay tuned :{))

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power
to make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

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Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in news:gcvqla$k5k$1
@aioe.org:

Perhaps it's the "pluff mud" which is on the
other shore - so soft that if you fall off the dock into it
you're up to your waist.

Not long ago a guy on a too-fast motorcycle shot over the handrail of the
James Island fixed bridge on the Charleston side and fell about 70' into
the pluff mud below the bridge. He plunged into the mud up to his face and
actually had to struggle himself to the surface of it to breathe until the
rescue squad could come and haul him out using 4x8 sheets of plywood to
support the rescue team across the mud to him. The pluff mud saved his
life from the 70' fall. The motorcycle was destroyed as it impacted the
side of the bridge railing around 70 mph.

There are many things encased in pluff mud for future archeologists to
discover when it solidifies into clay thousands of years from now after
humanity destroys itself, as it is hell bent on doing.

Bye Bye Flying Pig until next time.....(wave)....

Capt Larry
Larry's Limo and Electronics....(c;

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On 13 Oct 2008 16:43:06 GMT, Larry wrote:

Bye Bye Flying Pig until next time.....(wave)....

6.83 kts between 3:02 and 4:02PM. The wind must be blowing pretty
good out there.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Once again, I hear something about Charleston or SC that makes me think I
wouldn't stop there in a million years, even to meet Larry.

Larry, I would be interested in hearing what that councilman said about the
outrageous treatment Skip got at the fuel dock. I have never heard of
paying for dockage while you are waiting to buy fuel.
--
Roger Long

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On 13 Oct 2008 16:43:06 GMT, Larry wrote:

Bye Bye Flying Pig until next time.....(wave)....

6.83 kts between 3:02 and 4:02PM. The wind must be blowing pretty
good out there.


http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41004

17 knots gusting to about 22 ENE - perfect running or broad reaching but the
seas are probably quite large as it's been blowing like that for a couple
days. Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.

Wilbur Hubbard

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On 13 Oct 2008 16:43:06 GMT, Larry wrote:

Bye Bye Flying Pig until next time.....(wave)....

6.83 kts between 3:02 and 4:02PM. The wind must be blowing pretty
good out there.



http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41004

18 knots

8' seas

great fun in a 46' ketch

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Once again, I hear something about Charleston or SC that makes me
think I wouldn't stop there in a million years, even to meet Larry.

Larry, I would be interested in hearing what that councilman said
about the outrageous treatment Skip got at the fuel dock. I have
never heard of paying for dockage while you are waiting to buy fuel.

He looked astonished, but didn't say much other than he would look into it.

I know someone on the local newspaper and I will tell him the story when I
see him on Wednesday morning.

Something should be done about the Beach Company, the greedy *******s the
City of Charleston gave the marina to.

Buy fuel from The Harborage at Ashley Marina, the dock condo next door.
They don't charge to dock the boat even for a few more hours. Damned real
estate operators should have nothing to do with marinas.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his bananna
boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll terribly
dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling from the wave
excitation that is still present and the eddies of wind off the rig create
large rythmic rolling forces.

Putting the wind on the quarter damps rolling but introduces other
uncomfortable motions and steering difficulties due to wave action. I
certainly don't think though that Skip would be going dead downwind to
maximize comfort.

--
Roger Long

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in
roll terribly dead down wind since there is no side force to damp
rolling from the wave excitation that is still present and the eddies
of wind off the rig create large rythmic rolling forces.

Putting the wind on the quarter damps rolling but introduces other
uncomfortable motions and steering difficulties due to wave action. I
certainly don't think though that Skip would be going dead downwind to
maximize comfort.

--
Roger Long


Get me to the rail! I think I'm going to puke!

The motion of my roll around office chair coupled with Roger's ELOQUENT
description makes me...........wanna bring her into the wind!

Oh, how I hate that rolling with the waves on the quarter, trying to tear
the wheel out of your hands as it plows against the side of the rudder.....

......after the rudder goes back underwater, that is...(c;

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Larry wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in
:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.

Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in
roll terribly dead down wind since there is no side force to damp
rolling from the wave excitation that is still present and the eddies
of wind off the rig create large rythmic rolling forces.

Putting the wind on the quarter damps rolling but introduces other
uncomfortable motions and steering difficulties due to wave action. I
certainly don't think though that Skip would be going dead downwind to
maximize comfort.

--
Roger Long


Get me to the rail! I think I'm going to puke!

The motion of my roll around office chair coupled with Roger's ELOQUENT
description makes me...........wanna bring her into the wind!

Oh, how I hate that rolling with the waves on the quarter, trying to tear
the wheel out of your hands as it plows against the side of the rudder.....

.....after the rudder goes back underwater, that is...(c;




Exactly! I spent a most unpleasant four or five hours last year in a
quartering sea on Lake Ontario, waves were two to three meters, wind
wasn't all that strong, maybe 20Kts, at best, more likely a little less,
but 200 miles of fetch is enough to generate some good size waves. Of
course thay are not nice long rollers like on the ocean, 50 or 60 feet
crest to crest. Makes life really uncomfortable, the autopilot gets
totally bent out of shape when the boat rolls a lot and just gives up.

One wonders if Wilbur has ever set foot on sailboat.

Cheers
Martin

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:39:40 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his bananna
boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll terribly
dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling

Absolutely the worst point of sail, even in moderate seas. Even our
gyro/hydraulically stabilized trawler doesn't like it all that much
but it is more bearable than a sailboat.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected. Neal
/ Wilbur / whoever's apparent knowledge of boats and sailing is entirely
gained from books read at his mooring (and recently, probably, his ward).
I've never seen him post anything here that goes beyond what is in the usual
reading list and this statement is an assumption and error that could easily
be made by even an extensively read armchair sailor that never took his boat
out into open water.

--
Roger Long

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

... *Of
course thay are not nice long rollers like on the ocean, 50 or 60 feet
crest to crest. Makes life really uncomfortable, the autopilot gets
totally bent out of shape when the boat rolls a lot and just gives up....

I remember those boxy Lake Ontario waves well. The only time I've
been full on seasick was running home in a following sea on that lake
-- my folks sent my brother and me below and the bugger blew chunks
all over me. It was a bad scene. I was 9ish and I remember it with
terrible clarity. However, just for the record, the oceans can create
similarly ugly seas even in deep, unobstructed waters when conditions
are right (or wrong as may be). Don't go to sea on the assumption
that all you will see is big round swells...

--Tom.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Oct 14, 3:10*pm, Marty wrote:
....
I am well aware of this Tom, *my personal experience is we on Lake
Ontario occasionally get nice long rollers,, just as the ocean will
occasionally dish up some nasty square waves, (particularly common if
there is a large current involved, a la Gulf Stream). But more often
than not we get those nasty short waves, and most ocean sailors, more
often than not, get longer rolling waves.

Sorry if I sounded pedantic, Marty. I didn't mean to preach. The
oceans are a big place and weather is local and I haven't seen even a
tiny bit of what there is to see. Still, I quibble a bit with the
idea that the oceans will only __occasionally__ dish up nasty square
waves. If the waves are new (ie. you're close to a compact wx system)
or running against current they can get nasty and that, IM (limited)
E, is a common enough thing. YMMV.

--Tom.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Oct 14, 7:55*pm, WaIIy wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:16:18 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected. * Neal
/ Wilbur / whoever's apparent knowledge of boats and sailing is entirely
gained from books read at his mooring (and recently, probably, his ward)..
I've never seen him post anything here that goes beyond what is in the usual
reading list and this statement is an assumption and error that could easily
be made by even an extensively read armchair sailor that never took his boat
out into open water.

Even you can't keep politics out, eh Roger?

Politics? Just an observation of fact I'd say.

Wilbur/Neal can see the oceans on Google Earth, there for he can sail
them. In his mind.

Just like Palin can see Russia from her front yard. And there for
understands U.S./Russian relations. In her mind.


Capt. Bill

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll
terribly dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling from
the wave excitation that is still present and the eddies of wind off the
rig create large rythmic rolling forces.

While I am definitely not familar with the rolling moment of Skippies Pig
and it could be significant I was hoping he had sense enough to purchase a
boat that did not suffer from excessive rythmic rolling and knew how to sail
it to minimize those effects. But, that may, indeed, be hoping for too much.

Sounds to me it is YOU who know nothing about sailboats, Mr. Long. It also
sounds to me that you don't or can't use a spinnaker. If you sail downwind
wing and wing there can be significant rolling. But, if you use a spinnaker
like I do and sheet the main in flat there is very little rythmic rolling
when I run. Another consideration is the underbody of the yacht. My fine
blue water yacht just happens to have a Scheel keel which is also quite
shoal. It's the deeper fin keels and traditional full-length keels that
contribute to a rythmic rolling effect when running much more so than a
shoal draft vessel. This is due to the lift generated by the extra leverage
of a deep draft underbody.

I have sailed considerable periods of time running and I can tell you
rolling is barely there under a spinnaker. Rolling (and yawing) increases
greatly when sailing with the wind and wave on the quarter. The large, long
period waves tend to slew the boat all over the place as they strike the
quarter. A wave coming directly from astern does not slew the vessel at all.
And a spinnaker pulling the vessel along by her stem head gives the vessel
no cause to roll.

Those sailors who complain about excessive rolling with boom end dipping
into the water when running sail ill-handling boats and that's a fact. My
boat is not to be counted among those less well drawn.

Wilbur Hubbard

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Marty" wrote in message
...
Larry wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in
:
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.

Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in
roll terribly dead down wind since there is no side force to damp
rolling from the wave excitation that is still present and the eddies
of wind off the rig create large rythmic rolling forces.

Putting the wind on the quarter damps rolling but introduces other
uncomfortable motions and steering difficulties due to wave action. I
certainly don't think though that Skip would be going dead downwind to
maximize comfort.

--
Roger Long

Get me to the rail! I think I'm going to puke!

The motion of my roll around office chair coupled with Roger's ELOQUENT
description makes me...........wanna bring her into the wind!

Oh, how I hate that rolling with the waves on the quarter, trying to tear
the wheel out of your hands as it plows against the side of the
rudder.....

.....after the rudder goes back underwater, that is...(c;




Exactly! I spent a most unpleasant four or five hours last year in a
quartering sea on Lake Ontario, waves were two to three meters, wind
wasn't all that strong, maybe 20Kts, at best, more likely a little less,
but 200 miles of fetch is enough to generate some good size waves. Of
course thay are not nice long rollers like on the ocean, 50 or 60 feet
crest to crest. Makes life really uncomfortable, the autopilot gets
totally bent out of shape when the boat rolls a lot and just gives up.

One wonders if Wilbur has ever set foot on sailboat.


Your first paragraph just comfirmed my statement that sailing with
quartering waves cause more rolling, and yawing than sailing on a dead run
but then you make yourself sound like an idiot by contradicting yourself in
the last sentence you illogically penned. Duh!

Perhaps you should read my OP with understanding.

Wilbur Hubbard



Cheers
Martin

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:39:40 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna
boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll
terribly
dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling

Absolutely the worst point of sail, even in moderate seas. Even our
gyro/hydraulically stabilized trawler doesn't like it all that much
but it is more bearable than a sailboat.


This tells me you never sailed a well designed sailing vessel. This tells
me you don't use a spinnaker when sailing downwind. Don't try to translate
driving a trawler to sailing a sailboat.

Dead downwind sailing under spinnaker and sheeted flat main causes little or
no rolling in a properly designed sailboat such as the one I sail. Sailing
with quartering wind and seas makes for a VERY rolly ride as the vessel yaws
and slews as every wave overtakes her.

You people need to get real.

Wilbur Hubbard

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected.
Neal / Wilbur / whoever's apparent knowledge of boats and sailing is
entirely gained from books read at his mooring (and recently, probably, his
ward). I've never seen him post anything here that goes beyond what is in
the usual reading list and this statement is an assumption and error that
could easily be made by even an extensively read armchair sailor that never
took his boat out into open water.

It is YOU who have demonstrated a lack of voyaging under sail know-how. See
my other posts for the reasons why.

Wilbur Hubbard

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:48f53b92$0
:

Sounds to me it is YOU who know nothing about sailboats, Mr. Long.

Most amusing. If he met Einstein, he tell him he didn't know anything
about physics......or mathematics.....

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:46:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

This tells me you never sailed a well designed sailing vessel.

Only about 20 or 30, lost count long ago but there have been Cals,
C&Cs, Swans, Baltics, J-Boats, Custom Frers and Ron Hollands among
others. Most of them were well designed but some better offshore
than others.

They are all different but dead down wind in big following seas is
rarely a stable ride.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:38:33 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

But, if you use a spinnaker
like I do and sheet the main in flat

That's an invitation to a violent broach in any kind of wind.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On 2008-10-14 20:41:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Perhaps you should read my OP with understanding.

He DID read the OP -- with experience.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Jere Lull wrote:
On 2008-10-14 20:41:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Perhaps you should read my OP with understanding.

He DID read the OP -- with experience.


Thanks Jere, yet more proof that Wilbur/Neal is a little short of
experience.

Cheers
Martin

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:38:33 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

But, if you use a spinnaker
like I do and sheet the main in flat

That's an invitation to a violent broach in any kind of wind.



Indeed, as the your rudder rises out of the crest, which is alread
flowing with your direction of travel and rendering the thing useless,
and then the wind or you boat moves just a bit and you now present you
sheeted and flattened main to the wind...... smack!

Cheers
Martin

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On 2008-10-14 20:46:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Dead downwind sailing under spinnaker and sheeted flat main causes
little or no rolling in a properly designed sailboat such as the one I
sail. Sailing with quartering wind and seas makes for a VERY rolly ride
as the vessel yaws and slews as every wave overtakes her.

You really don't know chutes, either. I regularly pass those going dead
down wind. The absolute easiest ones to pass are the yahoos who flatten
the main, making it nothing more than drag and disturbance in the
airflow. They over-sheet the chute so it can't collapse.... might as
well have a bedsheet up for all the good it does. [The luff of a chute
should be curling, but not curled, at all times to get speed.]

Cracking off 15-20 degrees, the ride improves greatly as both sails are
on the same side, limiting the roll considerably. In addition, it's
faster; the distance increases by 5%, but VMG improves with the
increased apparent wind. The autopilot (hey, I'm cruising) more easily
handles waves on a single quarter rather than both, so I can leave the
steering to Otto and have fun playing the sheets.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Larry" wrote

Most amusing. If he met Einstein, he tell him he didn't know anything
about physics......or mathematics.....


Thanks. I don't claim to be an Einstein but I have built a career on an
understanding of rythmic rolling. In fact, the University Oceanographic
Laboratory Organization has my discussion of the subject on their web site.
Possibly interesting reading for one of the two or three people with enough
money left to be thinking about having a trawler yacht built.

http://www.unols.org/publications/ma...ium/motion.pdf

--
Roger Long

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Roger Long wrote:
I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected.

Clearly an Obama moment showing a complete lack of intelligence,
learning and clear evidence of being solely the product of the most
corrupt political machine in the western hemisphere.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Roger Long wrote:
I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected.

Clearly an Obama moment showing a complete lack of intelligence, learning
and clear evidence of being solely the product of the most corrupt
political machine in the western hemisphere.

You forgot to say that Obama is a biologically-engineered Marxist, Islamic
terrorist who hates puppies, drinks the blood of Christian babies, and wants
to turn the entire planet over to his evil Overlords of the Planet "Zombie."

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

KLC Lewis wrote:
"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Roger Long wrote:
I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected.
Clearly an Obama moment showing a complete lack of intelligence, learning
and clear evidence of being solely the product of the most corrupt
political machine in the western hemisphere.

You forgot to say that Obama is a biologically-engineered Marxist, Islamic
terrorist who hates puppies, drinks the blood of Christian babies, and wants
to turn the entire planet over to his evil Overlords of the Planet "Zombie."


Good points. Thanks.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Marty" wrote in message
...
Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:38:33 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

But, if you use a spinnaker like I do and sheet the main in flat

That's an invitation to a violent broach in any kind of wind.



Indeed, as the your rudder rises out of the crest, which is alread flowing
with your direction of travel and rendering the thing useless, and then
the wind or you boat moves just a bit and you now present you sheeted and
flattened main to the wind...... smack!

Cheers
Martin

You and the other dumb naysayers here clearly lack understanding of basic
laws of physics.

With the chute pulling the boat by the bows and lifting the bows the rest of
the boat is just along for the ride. It's highly unlikely that the rudder is
going to come out of the water when running - even when a wave crest
passes - as there is such a thing as a quarter wave that becomes quite large
at hull speeds.

I can tell you people have rarely or ever sailed on the open seas using a
spinnaker because you obviously don't know what happens out there. You don't
have choppy little seas you find on your little bays and inland lakes that
can raise the stern out of the water enough to disengage the rudder because
of the teeter-totter effect of short wavelengths. Instead, you have large,
long period waves with crests that are not breaking or anything close to
breaking unless you're sailing in a gale and those who sail in a gale under
spinnaker are crazy.

Wilbur Hubbard

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:gd4hco$llp$1
@registered.motzarella.org:

http://www.unols.org/publications/ma...ium/motion.pdf

"Anything which impedes the transverse flow of water around a hull will
tend to reduce the amplitude, or angle, of rolling while leaving the period
unaffected."



I always wanted to put a nice long trunk into the keel of a simple planing
runabout with a weighted swing keel like a small sailboat that would simply
swing itself up into the trunk at planing speeds, yet swing down as you
came off the plane into displacement mode to stop the rolling WITHOUT
having to lose the deep-v narrow hull and replace it with the typical
trihull design with chines that make it pound like hell on every wave it
hits.....beating you to death in the process.

I rode across the harbor a month ago in moderate chop in an old deep V
aluminum fishing boat, circa 1965, that cut so cleanly through the chop
without pounding making the crossing such a more pleasurable experience.

I think I'd like to keep the V that rolls so much with a swing keel in a
trunk that would stop it and fold up out of the way at planing speed....

Silly old nut...That would cost profit!

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

Paul Cassel wrote in
:

clear evidence of being solely the product of the most
corrupt political machine in the western hemisphere.


Are you talking about the Council on Foreign Relations or the Freemasons??

Does Palin have a boat? Sail or power??

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:22:57 +0000, Larry wrote:


Does Palin have a boat? Sail or power??

Todd Palin is a salmon fisherman, so he must have a boat. I'm assuming
powered.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:

With the chute pulling the boat by the bows and lifting the bows the
rest of the boat is just along for the ride. It's highly unlikely that
the rudder is going to come out of the water when running - even when
a wave crest passes - as there is such a thing as a quarter wave that
becomes quite large at hull speeds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDmhCtyby3c

Speaking of chutes, isn't it time we jumped from the mid 1800's
inefficient airbag technology streaming from your pole to the serious
power the parasailing community has known about for years, like the
Germans below have done for ship boost propulsion? This would be a
great boon to sail power. Look carefully at the AZIMUTH RANGE the power
meter on the ship control panel of it shows in green! It's not just for
following seas....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyetrs3MQ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEnGm2eYoew


Now, combine a parasail dragging your hull through the water with a
rotating balloon that provides kilowatts of electrical energy from its
Bornoulli principle shaped object, like those below. The technology is
to replace the very expensive, hard to maintain wind generator towers,
like that damned noisy thing on your stern buzzing away while you're
trying to sleep...with one of these rotating electrical generator
balloons in the movies below! The same principle of the parasail is
turned into a vaned rotating genset kite that not only can pull your
boat through the water like the parasail, but send much-needed
electrical power down the tether lines to recharge those crappy golf
cart batteries in the bilge! At anchor, you wouldn't douse the chute,
you'd continue to deploy it, anchoring from your stern to keep the chute
genset downwind, high up above the interfering shore obstructions. An
automated winch system would deploy or retrieve the barrel-shaped
balloon to prevent over charging and overspeed operation, running on the
power the balloon provides, of course.

Now in the electricity generating business in the anchorage, floating
dropcords would be deployed to other boats who wish to BUY electrical
energy from you, reducing your costs of the balloon's purchase and
operating expenses, maybe even turning a profit....(c;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ZFcKnP2AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgWP5U5Ew

Very cool stuff for anyone willing to pull his head out of the sand and
move on from trying to play Captain Blythe and the Pirates circa 1800s.

I doubt you could hear the balloon making 10KW from your bunk....(c;
If the wind died, the balloon would be straight up over your deploying
winch, not drowning in the water....a great idea!

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Now, combine a parasail dragging your hull through the water with a
rotating balloon that provides kilowatts of electrical energy from its
Bornoulli principle shaped object, like those below.
snipped
At anchor, you wouldn't douse the chute,
you'd continue to deploy it, anchoring from your stern to keep the chute
genset downwind, high up above the interfering shore obstructions. An
automated winch system would deploy or retrieve the barrel-shaped
balloon to prevent over charging and overspeed operation, running on the
power the balloon provides, of course.

Now in the electricity generating business in the anchorage, floating
dropcords would be deployed to other boats who wish to BUY electrical
energy from you, reducing your costs of the balloon's purchase and
operating expenses, maybe even turning a profit....(c;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ZFcKnP2AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgWP5U5Ew

Very cool stuff for anyone willing to pull his head out of the sand and
move on from trying to play Captain Blythe and the Pirates circa 1800s.

I doubt you could hear the balloon making 10KW from your bunk....(c;
If the wind died, the balloon would be straight up over your deploying
winch, not drowning in the water....a great idea!


If you anchored by the stern and left a large parachute flying I doubt if
anyone else would care to anchor near enough to pass a wire to you for some
of your electrical power.

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

"Edgar" wrote in
:

If you anchored by the stern and left a large parachute flying I doubt
if anyone else would care to anchor near enough to pass a wire to you
for some of your electrical power.




Wow....another benefit I hadn't thought of, thanks! Less crowding in by
the other boats!

Miami Passage - Day 6, completed - October 12
 

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:13:18 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Instead, you have large,
long period waves with crests that are not breaking or anything close to
breaking

That's on a good day, and then there are the others.

It does not take a wave to throw a boat into a broach if it is dead
down wind with the main sheeted in hard. Any strong gust will do.