Dan wrote:
I have noticed a difference in the holding tank odor when using fresh
and salt water. With fresh, I do not even need to add a deodorizer to
it. With salt water, the stench is noticable walking past the boat on
hot days. I figured the salt water would act as an antiseptic but
there's so many things living in it that it seems to make things
worse. But truth be told, I'm in brackish water - not true salt
water.

That's very strange, 'cuz both waste and sea water are organic matter,
all organic matter breaks down the same way--odorless in an aerobic
environment, stinky in an anaerobic environment. So unless you're adding
a LOT of bacteriacide (bleach?) to your fresh water tank, flushing with
fresh or salt water shouldn't make any difference in holding tank odor.

Peggie

Peggie Hall wrote in message ...

First some comments for Dan...then some questions for Adam:

Dan wrote:

Adam,
You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
heads.

There are only two ways to do that without risk of polluting the potable
water: install a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water, or
install a separate flush water tank. There is no safe way to connect to
any toilet designed to flush with raw water to the potable water
system...in fact, the installation instructions for all of 'em
specifically warn against doing it.

HOwever, there's a very simple solution that solves the problem without
adding a tank, or risking an e-coli infection: tee the head sink drain
into the head intake line. To flush all the sea water out of the whole
system, close the seacock, fill the sink with fresh water, flush the
toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls water the water
out of the sink. You can either use this method to purge the system of
sea water, or keep the seacock closed and use the sink to flush the
toilet all the time.


I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
knees.

Although sea water left to stagnate in a head intake can generate
horrific odor in the head, whether the toilet is flushed with fresh
or sea water makes no difference in the holding tank.


Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it.

A cupful of undiluted WHITE vinegar flushed all the way through the
hoses once a week prevents it for everyone else who does it
religiously...very odd that it didn't for you.


Adam (forgive me if I've already asked these questions...my email at
this time of year averages about 100 a week)...


Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink and
head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco - Seacock just above WL.

Why do you want to hold gray water? It's not required in any coastal
waters except in a few very small clearly marked areas in the FL Keys
National Marine Sanctuary where even the discharge of bilge water is
prohibited...but so is anchoring, so it's not much of an issue. At most
all you should need just about anywhere in the world is a shower sump.


Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump Jabsco
+ Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.

I'd go with a diaphragm pump...they can run dry without harm. The
SeaLand pump is your best choice. Please tell me you aren't planning to
use the deck pumpout fill to dump the tank at sea? It can be done, but
it's not recommended. How 'bout giving me more details about how you
plan to plumb this system. And why are you opting for a holding tank
instead of a Type I MSD (device that treats waste and discharges it
overboard legally)?

Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or outside
through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose



Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.

2" for head intake and discharge? All marine toilets use a 3/4"
intake...head and tank overboard discharge should be 1.5". If you go
with too large a diameter, it can cause a pressure drop.


Questions: which toilette? I
didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie :-),

Uh-oh...it looks like I HAVE asked these questions already...



--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

First of all - thanks for advices.
Second of all - Peggie - I just got your book - it is great. I've finished
read it during this weekend, and now I have to revised some of my ideas.
Third of all - my boat is still under construction so I can do all suggested
modification.
I. The idea with fresh water from sink - it's very clever but not
"understandable" for all on board.
I have plenty of room so I'll go with separate tank.
The question about that: - how big is reasonable? I would go with 30
gallons.
With separate tank I will be able to use electric or manual head. Not for
pressurized water.
II. Why separate tank for Gray water - if I do not have a tank I'll have to
use two pumps; for shower and galley. With tank I can connect galley, sink
and shower together and pump out if needed.
The concern is only if it is another source of odour problem.
III. Two seacock 2" - I have revised it already.
One seacock 2" for cockpit drains bellow water line (plus 3" transom scupper
above water line).
Second seacock 2" is intake - for all sources including engine, ac and
fridge.
Third 1.5" for head discharge - bellow water line
And it looks like I'll need one more for gray water just above water line.
Adam


"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
First some comments for Dan...then some questions for Adam:

Dan wrote:
Adam,
You may want to consider plumbing in a fresh water flush for your
heads.

There are only two ways to do that without risk of polluting the potable
water: install a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water, or
install a separate flush water tank. There is no safe way to connect to
any toilet designed to flush with raw water to the potable water
system...in fact, the installation instructions for all of 'em
specifically warn against doing it.

HOwever, there's a very simple solution that solves the problem without
adding a tank, or risking an e-coli infection: tee the head sink drain
into the head intake line. To flush all the sea water out of the whole
system, close the seacock, fill the sink with fresh water, flush the
toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls water the water
out of the sink. You can either use this method to purge the system of
sea water, or keep the seacock closed and use the sink to flush the
toilet all the time.

I'm a liveaboard and I can tell you from experience salt water
and a holding tank can create a stench that will put you on your
knees.

Although sea water left to stagnate in a head intake can generate
horrific odor in the head, whether the toilet is flushed with fresh
or sea water makes no difference in the holding tank.

Also, salt water and uric acid will quickly cause scale to
form in the head and the lines. When I used salt water to flush, I
had to remove and clean my lines out about every 12 months. They
would become plugged with scale. A little vinegar in the head every
week helps reduce the problem but doesn't eliminate it.

A cupful of undiluted WHITE vinegar flushed all the way through the
hoses once a week prevents it for everyone else who does it
religiously...very odd that it didn't for you.


Adam (forgive me if I've already asked these questions...my email at
this time of year averages about 100 a week)...

Gray water - 1x 30 gallons polyethylene grey tank, for galley, head sink
and
head shower. All "piping" with 1" Sanitation Hose, ABS/PVC fittings.
Discharge - Commercial Duty Water Puppy Model 16360-1003 Jabsco & Check
Valve + Hand Diaphragm Pump Jabsco - Seacock just above WL.

Why do you want to hold gray water? It's not required in any coastal
waters except in a few very small clearly marked areas in the FL Keys
National Marine Sanctuary where even the discharge of bilge water is
prohibited...but so is anchoring, so it's not much of an issue. At most
all you should need just about anywhere in the world is a shower sump.

Sanitation - 30 gallons polyethylene holding tank with Macerator pump
Jabsco
+ Check Valve. Dock discharge through deck fill.

I'd go with a diaphragm pump...they can run dry without harm. The
SeaLand pump is your best choice. Please tell me you aren't planning to
use the deck pumpout fill to dump the tank at sea? It can be done, but
it's not recommended. How 'bout giving me more details about how you
plan to plumb this system. And why are you opting for a holding tank
instead of a Type I MSD (device that treats waste and discharges it
overboard legally)?
Head - water from sea water system - discharge to holding tank or
outside
through Y valve, 1 1/2" Sanitation Hose

Two seacock 2" - one for IN and one for OUT.

2" for head intake and discharge? All marine toilets use a 3/4"
intake...head and tank overboard discharge should be 1.5". If you go
with too large a diameter, it can cause a pressure drop.

Questions: which toilette? I
didn't know that I have to many to choose from - thanks Peggie :-),

Uh-oh...it looks like I HAVE asked these questions already...


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Adam wrote:
I. The idea with fresh water from sink - it's very clever but not
"understandable" for all on board.

Perhaps not for flushing, but surely you could could use it to flush
all the sea water out of the system weekly. But, it's your boat...

I have plenty of room so I'll go with separate tank.
The question about that: - how big is reasonable? I would go with 30
gallons.

"Big enough" depends on several things: how many people are using the
head, how much flush water the toilet uses, how long away from the dock
to refill it.

With separate tank I will be able to use electric or manual head.
Not for
pressurized water.

I can't find an earlier post of yours I was looking for...but didn't you
say you're installing a watermaker? If so, why the concern about
fresh water consumption by a toilet that uses pressurized water? For
that matter, if you have space for another 30 gal. tank to do nothing
but supply flush water to the toilet, why not just increase your fresh
water holding capacity instead. Toilets designed to use pressurized
flush water use half or less the amount required by raw water toilets.

But whatever you ultimately decide to do, we prob'ly ought to discuss
which toilet before you buy one.


II. Why separate tank for Gray water - if I do not have a tank I'll
have to
use two pumps; for shower and galley. With tank I can connect galley,
sink
and shower together and pump out if needed.
The concern is only if it is another source of odour problem.

It is. A gray water tank is full of bacteria, and can stink as bad as,
even worse than, a waste holding tank. Plus, gray water tanks also have
grease, soap scum, hair etc to deal with. Your galley and head sinks can
drain directly overboard...only the shower needs a sump. And a smal sump
is a LOT easier to keep clean and odor free than a tank.

Second seacock 2" is intake - for all sources including engine, ac and
fridge.

Get some advice from engine, ac and fridge mfr about the advisability of
only one common intake and the size needed. My first thought is that all
running at the same time could reduce the water flow needed by one--or
even all--enough to damage its pump.

Third 1.5" for head discharge - bellow water line

Consider adding a Lectra/San (CG Certified Type I MSD that treats waste
and discharges it overboard legally)...you'd use the holding tank only
if/when you ever visit a "no discharge" harbor.

And it looks like I'll need one more for gray water just above water
line.

If you go with a shower sump instead, you could tee it into the head
discharge line...after the Lectra/San, but ahead of the vented loop.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

I going to install pressurized fresh water system and pressurized sea water
as well.
Using simple 3-way valve I'll be able to use fresh or sea water in head
system.
In this case I will use toilet for pressurized water system (which one is
the suitable? - three people on board)
Does this kind of toilet has emergency/backup hand pump?
I will have also the option to connect shore water supply to fresh water
system - bypassing the pump and sea water system as well.
Yes I have water-maker on my diagram also.
Grey water - shower and sink - connected to head discharge - do I need here
check valve?
According to your suggestion I'll eliminate grey holding tank - less
problems.
Galley - can I connect it to valve above water line?
Adam
"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:
I. The idea with fresh water from sink - it's very clever but not
"understandable" for all on board.

Perhaps not for flushing, but surely you could could use it to flush
all the sea water out of the system weekly. But, it's your boat...

I have plenty of room so I'll go with separate tank.
The question about that: - how big is reasonable? I would go with 30
gallons.

"Big enough" depends on several things: how many people are using the
head, how much flush water the toilet uses, how long away from the dock
to refill it.

With separate tank I will be able to use electric or manual head.
Not for
pressurized water.

I can't find an earlier post of yours I was looking for...but didn't you
say you're installing a watermaker? If so, why the concern about
fresh water consumption by a toilet that uses pressurized water? For
that matter, if you have space for another 30 gal. tank to do nothing
but supply flush water to the toilet, why not just increase your fresh
water holding capacity instead. Toilets designed to use pressurized
flush water use half or less the amount required by raw water toilets.

But whatever you ultimately decide to do, we prob'ly ought to discuss
which toilet before you buy one.


II. Why separate tank for Gray water - if I do not have a tank I'll
have to
use two pumps; for shower and galley. With tank I can connect galley,
sink
and shower together and pump out if needed.
The concern is only if it is another source of odour problem.

It is. A gray water tank is full of bacteria, and can stink as bad as,
even worse than, a waste holding tank. Plus, gray water tanks also have
grease, soap scum, hair etc to deal with. Your galley and head sinks can
drain directly overboard...only the shower needs a sump. And a smal sump
is a LOT easier to keep clean and odor free than a tank.

Second seacock 2" is intake - for all sources including engine, ac and
fridge.

Get some advice from engine, ac and fridge mfr about the advisability of
only one common intake and the size needed. My first thought is that all
running at the same time could reduce the water flow needed by one--or
even all--enough to damage its pump.

Third 1.5" for head discharge - bellow water line

Consider adding a Lectra/San (CG Certified Type I MSD that treats waste
and discharges it overboard legally)...you'd use the holding tank only
if/when you ever visit a "no discharge" harbor.

And it looks like I'll need one more for gray water just above water
line.

If you go with a shower sump instead, you could tee it into the head
discharge line...after the Lectra/San, but ahead of the vented loop.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

I going to install pressurized fresh water system and pressurized sea water
as well.
Using simple 3-way valve I'll be able to use fresh or sea water in head
system.
In this case I will use toilet for pressurized water system (which one is
the suitable? - three people on board)
Does this kind of toilet has emergency/backup hand pump?
I will have also the option to connect shore water supply to fresh water
system - bypassing the pump and sea water system as well.
Yes I have water-maker on my diagram also.
Grey water - shower and sink - connected to head discharge - do I need here
check valve?
According to your suggestion I'll eliminate grey holding tank - less
problems.
Galley - can I connect it to valve above water line?
Adam
"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:
I. The idea with fresh water from sink - it's very clever but not
"understandable" for all on board.

Perhaps not for flushing, but surely you could could use it to flush
all the sea water out of the system weekly. But, it's your boat...

I have plenty of room so I'll go with separate tank.
The question about that: - how big is reasonable? I would go with 30
gallons.

"Big enough" depends on several things: how many people are using the
head, how much flush water the toilet uses, how long away from the dock
to refill it.

With separate tank I will be able to use electric or manual head.
Not for
pressurized water.

I can't find an earlier post of yours I was looking for...but didn't you
say you're installing a watermaker? If so, why the concern about
fresh water consumption by a toilet that uses pressurized water? For
that matter, if you have space for another 30 gal. tank to do nothing
but supply flush water to the toilet, why not just increase your fresh
water holding capacity instead. Toilets designed to use pressurized
flush water use half or less the amount required by raw water toilets.

But whatever you ultimately decide to do, we prob'ly ought to discuss
which toilet before you buy one.


II. Why separate tank for Gray water - if I do not have a tank I'll
have to
use two pumps; for shower and galley. With tank I can connect galley,
sink
and shower together and pump out if needed.
The concern is only if it is another source of odour problem.

It is. A gray water tank is full of bacteria, and can stink as bad as,
even worse than, a waste holding tank. Plus, gray water tanks also have
grease, soap scum, hair etc to deal with. Your galley and head sinks can
drain directly overboard...only the shower needs a sump. And a smal sump
is a LOT easier to keep clean and odor free than a tank.

Second seacock 2" is intake - for all sources including engine, ac and
fridge.

Get some advice from engine, ac and fridge mfr about the advisability of
only one common intake and the size needed. My first thought is that all
running at the same time could reduce the water flow needed by one--or
even all--enough to damage its pump.

Third 1.5" for head discharge - bellow water line

Consider adding a Lectra/San (CG Certified Type I MSD that treats waste
and discharges it overboard legally)...you'd use the holding tank only
if/when you ever visit a "no discharge" harbor.

And it looks like I'll need one more for gray water just above water
line.

If you go with a shower sump instead, you could tee it into the head
discharge line...after the Lectra/San, but ahead of the vented loop.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1