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Gas prices have doubled
Why have gas prices doubled since the Democrats took control of Congress and
only went up 15% during the entire time the Republicans held Congress under Bush? If this trend continues and Democrats run the government, say goodbye to Stinkpot Cruisers. |
Gas prices have doubled
Since Congress (Red or Blue) seems unable to do anything significant, like
pass the EPA Clean Water Act exemption for recreation vessels, what makes you think gas prices have anything to do with them? They drones under the dome don't set gas prices. Increasing demand in China, India, and other rapidly developing nations, together with eight years of disasterous and stupid foreign policy in the oil producing areas of the world are what sets the prices. -- Roger Long |
Gas prices have doubled
"Roger Long" wrote in
: Since Congress (Red or Blue) seems unable to do anything significant, like pass the EPA Clean Water Act exemption for recreation vessels, what makes you think gas prices have anything to do with them? They drones under the dome don't set gas prices. Increasing demand in China, India, and other rapidly developing nations, together with eight years of disasterous and stupid foreign policy in the oil producing areas of the world are what sets the prices. -- Roger Long I don't believe any of that. Gas prices are fixed by demand, yes, but a much larger factor is the fact that the Yankee dollar is near worthless. That blame lays firmly at the feet of the Federal Reserve Privately Owned Bank Corporation, the bankers behind the curtain. It's why gold is constantly creeping its way back up to $1000/oz. The value of gold hasn't changed in 10,000 years. The money has, quite simply, gotten more worthless as the FED runs the printing press 24 hours a day loaning money to the US Government and failing American banks with nothing but a promise to back it up. You barely hear a thing said on the Propaganda Channels (cable news) about failing banks like the biggest one to close in US history this week: http://www.indymac.com/ Notice the slick bank webpage has been completely replaced by serious Federal Deposit Insurance Corp text. Pages like this: http://web.archive.org/web/200708271...ndymacb2b.com/ and all others, have simply vanished....along with a substantial amount of depositors' money. Who do you think will cough up the $US8,000,000,000 FDIC will pay in insurance? Who will crank up the money printing presses to print it....raising fuel prices even further. We're going to be in VERY serious trouble, very soon, as OPEC is moving operations away from the useless Yankee dollars sliding over the falls and onto the more stable EURO. Gas will really jump on that day as the conversion is nearly 1.5:1 at the moment and widening. |
Gas prices have doubled
Actually the oil futures market has ballooned from $60 billion to $260
billion in the past 7 years because of deregulation pushed by Republican Senators and Congressmen. It just took a little time for the chickens to start roosting and the droppings to pile up. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Mike" wrote in message ... Why have gas prices doubled since the Democrats took control of Congress and only went up 15% during the entire time the Republicans held Congress under Bush? If this trend continues and Democrats run the government, say goodbye to Stinkpot Cruisers. |
Gas prices have doubled
Mike,
Here is some actual data: http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx Gasoline went up more than 15% during Bush/Repo Congress and did not double during the Demo Congress. However, there is a big jump in prices since the Democrats took over Congress. I cannot help but notice the gas price curve is very similar to this one: http://pangea.stanford.edu/~jshragge...s/image007.gif If one is silly enough to believe that the latter curve proves that man is causing global warming, then it is intuitive that the Democrats are causing the rise in gas prices. "Mike" wrote in message ... Why have gas prices doubled since the Democrats took control of Congress and only went up 15% during the entire time the Republicans held Congress under Bush? If this trend continues and Democrats run the government, say goodbye to Stinkpot Cruisers. |
Gas prices have doubled
Don't forget the overall diminuation of U.S. "street cred" due to blundering
military adventures, crazy foreign policy, and an obvious mental defective in the top job. That translates directly into loss of confidence. The value of the dollar is largely based on that confidence. The dollar was the standard by which most other currencies were valued just eight years ago. Now the "gold standard" is the oil standard. As the world has shifted from dollars to oil as the basic economic unit, one has gotten cheaper and one has gotten more expensive. Guess how that looks from our end of the telescope. -- Roger Long |
Gas prices have doubled
On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:14:30 +0000, Larry wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in : Since Congress (Red or Blue) seems unable to do anything significant, like pass the EPA Clean Water Act exemption for recreation vessels, what makes you think gas prices have anything to do with them? They drones under the dome don't set gas prices. Increasing demand in China, India, and other rapidly developing nations, together with eight years of disasterous and stupid foreign policy in the oil producing areas of the world are what sets the prices. -- Roger Long I don't believe any of that. Gas prices are fixed by demand, yes, but a much larger factor is the fact that the Yankee dollar is near worthless. That blame lays firmly at the feet of the Federal Reserve Privately Owned Bank Corporation, the bankers behind the curtain. It's why gold is constantly creeping its way back up to $1000/oz. The value of gold hasn't changed in 10,000 years. The money has, quite simply, gotten more worthless as the FED runs the printing press 24 hours a day loaning money to the US Government and failing American banks with nothing but a promise to back it up. You barely hear a thing said on the Propaganda Channels (cable news) about failing banks like the biggest one to close in US history this week: http://www.indymac.com/ Notice the slick bank webpage has been completely replaced by serious Federal Deposit Insurance Corp text. Pages like this: http://web.archive.org/web/200708271...ndymacb2b.com/ and all others, have simply vanished....along with a substantial amount of depositors' money. Who do you think will cough up the $US8,000,000,000 FDIC will pay in insurance? Who will crank up the money printing presses to print it....raising fuel prices even further. We're going to be in VERY serious trouble, very soon, as OPEC is moving operations away from the useless Yankee dollars sliding over the falls and onto the more stable EURO. Gas will really jump on that day as the conversion is nearly 1.5:1 at the moment and widening. More than that Larry, An English historian, Toynbee (sp?) postulated that the vital life of any empire in history is about 200 years. Depending on when you date the start of the American empire, I would say that it is fast coming to an end though will still survive as a powerhouse for some time to come. It started before the sinking of the Maine and the takeover of Spanish colonial possesions such as the Philippines and the economic/political colonialsim of the United Fruit Company. Interesting that in 1868 Commodore Perry forced open the doors of Japan to trade with the US - apart from WWII, look what happened to your home economy when that tiger awoke. Then the Nixon admin. wanted China to open its doors to international trade - 30 to 1 dollar trade imbalance now and it hasn't ended yet. China has the largest armed forces in the world and is rapidly acquiring advanced technilogical weaponry. The last three wars of Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that superior technology doesn't necessarily mean you win. The World Bank has predicted that the four top economies of the world in 2020 will be India, Russia, China and Brazil. The USA will only be in 5th place by countries but will be behind the EEC. You simply cannot move your production and jobs offshore without something giving - at least that is what we were once taught in Keynsian economic model at university. It's amazing how fast living standards can slip. New Zealand once had the 4th highest standard of living (don't know the criteria by which it was measured) and a few years ago it was only about 21st in the world. Awaiting a flame |
Gas prices have doubled
|
Gas prices have doubled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldET...eature=related
"Larry" wrote in message ... "Roger Long" wrote in : Since Congress (Red or Blue) seems unable to do anything significant, like pass the EPA Clean Water Act exemption for recreation vessels, what makes you think gas prices have anything to do with them? They drones under the dome don't set gas prices. Increasing demand in China, India, and other rapidly developing nations, together with eight years of disasterous and stupid foreign policy in the oil producing areas of the world are what sets the prices. -- Roger Long I don't believe any of that. Gas prices are fixed by demand, yes, but a much larger factor is the fact that the Yankee dollar is near worthless. That blame lays firmly at the feet of the Federal Reserve Privately Owned Bank Corporation, the bankers behind the curtain. It's why gold is constantly creeping its way back up to $1000/oz. The value of gold hasn't changed in 10,000 years. The money has, quite simply, gotten more worthless as the FED runs the printing press 24 hours a day loaning money to the US Government and failing American banks with nothing but a promise to back it up. You barely hear a thing said on the Propaganda Channels (cable news) about failing banks like the biggest one to close in US history this week: http://www.indymac.com/ Notice the slick bank webpage has been completely replaced by serious Federal Deposit Insurance Corp text. Pages like this: http://web.archive.org/web/200708271...ndymacb2b.com/ and all others, have simply vanished....along with a substantial amount of depositors' money. Who do you think will cough up the $US8,000,000,000 FDIC will pay in insurance? Who will crank up the money printing presses to print it....raising fuel prices even further. We're going to be in VERY serious trouble, very soon, as OPEC is moving operations away from the useless Yankee dollars sliding over the falls and onto the more stable EURO. Gas will really jump on that day as the conversion is nearly 1.5:1 at the moment and widening. |
Gas prices have doubled
Herodotus wrote in
: The last three wars of Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that superior technology doesn't necessarily mean you win. My only problem with your post is the "you" in the above sentence. The American government isn't run by the people of the United States, and hasn't been since 1913 when the Federal Reserve Bank Corporation, owned by a shadowy group of secret bankers, took control of our government by controlling its money supply. Even its creation was done without the permission of the American people as it was by a quick voice vote when most of our representatives had gone home for the holidays. They didn't even count the votes because the count would have meant it didn't pass. The IRS (Internal Revenue Service), hated by most all Americans like the Germans hated the Gestapo, was created at the same time in the same manner. Bankers and Think Tankers run America, not its citizens. We citizens are as much victims, having been used for cannon fodder in the constant wars the bankers use to keep the interest on national debt rolling into their pockets, as any Iraqi or Afghan. Our elections are a scam: http://youtube.com/watch?v=iVlZTWH7u8w Watch all 9 parts in order. Only the most stupid Americans still think Arabs with box cutters made THREE huge steel reinforced buildings fall straight down into their own footprint at freefall speed, an airliner crashed into the Pentagon and simply vanished, an airliner crashed in Pennsylvania and didn't leave a single seat or piece of luggage or massive titanium engine....just a gouge in the ground with no wreckage. The Nazy Ministry of Propaganda were amateurs compared to American cable news networks controlled by Zionists. George Orwell had the date set too soon.....but not by far. 1984 "You" never wins. WE, the yous of America, only end up face down in the killing fields of Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and soon to be Iran. These men will stage another "attack" to justify Iran, just like they have since Pearl Harbor.... .....a day that lives in infamy, indeed. Meyer Rothchild said, "Let me control a nation's money supply and I care NOT who makes its laws." He's still right, today. We Americans go on arguing about the employees of these bankers...presidents, politicians, senior bureaucrats....just as if it made a difference who we voted for. Our current presidential candidates are all: Freemasons Council on Foreign Relations Trilateral Commission hand picked by the bankers who run the place..... We get to vote for the "Lawyer of their choice".... It's why non-member Ron Paul wasn't allowed to debate them....and screw up the farce being broadcast. |
Gas prices have doubled
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Gas prices have doubled
On 2008-07-13 22:49:50 -0400, Larry said:
Herodotus wrote in : The last three wars of Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that superior technology doesn't necessarily mean you win. My only problem with your post is the "you" in the above sentence. Oh gosh Larry, this is one subject I won't debate you online, though I'll indicate that that "you" was generic, not directed to anyone in particular..... NO participant or observer wins in war. All lose, one way or the other. But sometimes the war must be fought to give the non-combatants some measure of freedom. Some "good" wars left the populace only slightly improved. Unluckily, some "good" wars left the populace in worse shape. (At the time, it sounded like a good idea.) Perhaps my problem is that I grew up in an area where the "Amish" influence is strong. Personally, if I or mine is directly endangered, I won't hesitate to use deadly force in defense. I admire those who can effectively solve problems without physical conflict. But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al Quaida vs. most/all western countries? Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities" refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them so many ways? -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Gas prices have doubled
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 05:05:56 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
Perhaps my problem is that I grew up in an area where the "Amish" influence is strong. Personally, if I or mine is directly endangered, I won't hesitate to use deadly force in defense. I admire those who can effectively solve problems without physical conflict. But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al Quaida vs. most/all western countries? Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities" refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them so many ways? Jere, This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply. Firstly, the establishment of Israel was promoted by the chapel politicians of Great Britain and their equally Bible reading politicians of the USA. The Zionists were previously offered a homeland in Uganda and in Australia, both of which they turned down. Secondly, nobody asked the then current inhabitants as to the establishment of a Jewish state in their lands. I do agree that it is only proper that the Jews needed a homeland but to claim a right to occupy Bible lands by prior occupation (the Diaspora began with Titus's sacking of Jerusalem in 68AD) is the same right that Mussolini and his Italian fascists claimed the right to accupy Libya and intern its occupants in giant concentration camps where huge numbers were systematically starved to death to provide land for Italian peasant settlers. The claim was that it was a Roman province 2,000 years ago. Also, there are many millions of Jews living throughout the world who do not believe in the principle of the modern state of Israel such as many of the Sephardic branch of Jews. Thirdly, I do agree with non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. My country (New Zealand) made a quite costly stand many years ago during the cold war by banning ships with nuclear weapons from its ports. However, I have often wondered why it is not ok for Iran to have nuclear weapons but it is perfectly fine for Israel, Pakistan (another US`ally) and India to have them even though they have not signed the various protocols of non-proliferation. Only recently it was revealed that it was the Pakistan armed forces who shipped the necessary nuclear weapon technology and machinery to North Korea aboard North Korean military planes from Pakistan. This hardware and technical knowledge originally came from the USA. This, and the fact that neither India nor Pakistan have signed the non-proliferation concords is why Australia refuses to sell them its uranium. The rest of the world really doesn't mind the US stance on Iran's nuclear weapon development, which is also the position of the EU, but it does not fail to see the double standards. If the US does attack Iran on some trumped up pretext as they did in Iraq, then the world's current shortage of petroleum will compound dramatically. However, it probably won't matter as big business will make even more money in supplying its subsidiary, the military. Their children will not be sent to die. regards Peter |
Gas prices have doubled
"Larry" wrote in message ... "Mike" wrote in : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q The only one telling the TRUTH.... Sadly, nobody wants to hear the truth Larry.. We'd rather let CNN, FOX, MTV, CMT, our church or political party tell us what to think and do. Saves valuable porn surfing and video gaming time. We're in a toilet, but the surge is working and there nothing really wrong with the economy so all is good, right? Could someone open up my drip just a little? aaaawwww, that's it..... |
Gas prices have doubled
If this trend continues and Democrats run the government, say goodbye to Stinkpot Cruisers. Hardly. Those of us that can afford it will continue to enjoy it... with a lot more free space on the water. |
Gas prices have doubled
Jere Lull wrote in news:2008071401055675249-
jerelull@maccom: But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al Quaida vs. most/all western countries? First, I've never met, seen or had any contact with an "Al Quaida" person. I've seen some government-doctored videos of an Osama Bin Laden double who didn't even look like him. I'm not sure Al Quaida even exists, outside the various government propaganda offices that keep hammering away using this term, over and over and over....like they do "terrorist". I DO know several Moslems and have for many many years. I moved to Tehran in 1977 and lived and worked for the Iranian Air Force until 28 days before the Shahanshah left in 1979. No matter what the Zionists controlling the US Government say, Iranian people do NOT hate Americans. Iranian people hate the American GOVERNMENT, and with very good reason. It threatens to kill them, just like the Israeli masters that run the American Government. Iranians, in general, are so smart they know there is a difference. Drop by Radio Shack and talk to Iranians, who seem to gravitate there for a job. They are natural merchants, so be wary of all that stuff you've bought for reasons you can't imagine...(c; I knew rich Iranians. I knew dirt poor Iranians, Azurbajanis, Kurds. A Kurdish man even the Iranians in my neighborhood had trouble communicating with stayed on after our apartment building was constructed sleeping in our common area garage. We took pity on him sleeping on his straw mat on the concrete and made a little plywood room for him in a corner of the garage so he could be warm with his little kerosene stove that made the best pot of tea I ever tasted! We communicated with him through gestures and broken Farsi. The man was huge, a natural fork lift. I saw him carry a whole 15 cuft fridge up 8 flights of stairs and not even sweat! He kept our place clean, lawn hand manicured, rooftop picnic area we made clean, did odd jobs for us. He cried when he saw the room we had made for him, probably the first home he'd ever had. We Americans were heros for the whole neighborhood once that word got out of our good deed. NOONE dared cross our lawn or mess with our stuff with such a huge Kurd standing guard by the door, his favorite position except during prayer times. I never met an Iranian who hated me in over 2 years living in a middle-class neighborhood, off the local economy....well, except for that Iranian guy who tried to shove his way in front of me at the Supershellan (supermarket) when I threatened to put that shopping cart right up his ass, to the great amusement of the very English gentleman in line behind me in his bowler hat commenting, "Good show, old boy! Good Show!" I'd easily move back to Iran anytime the religious nuts lose their grip on the Iranian government and sane people from the 21st Century started running Iran again...after all this stupid sabre rattling stopped. Hell, I used to volunteer to fly with the Iranian Air Force....great fun except for the 3 weeks we flew 24/7 to Tabbas after a 9.2 earthquake killed 25,000 people in 80 seconds flat during their dinner hour. That was awful. We flew nonstop in C-130 Hercules to feed and house the 18,000 people that survived...out in the desert outside of the totally collapsed city on the Afghan border. I bet those Iranians remember all the Americans helping load and unload the planes all night long, too. You never get tired of being hugged to death for your good deeds. I was going back to Iran as soon as they let Googoosh, the Iranian pop star, back in the country. Taxi drivers used to pop in American rock cassettes into their players for the American riders when I lived there. "No, no! Do you have Googoosh?!", I'd always ask. EVERYONE had Googoosh, a silly question. A huge smile would cross the taxi drivers face as he popped open the glove compartment for you to select your favorite Googoosh tape. He had 'em all! Ahh...cruising around Tehran at 120km/hr with Googoosh blaring out of all 4 speakers...(c; She is banned in Iran...FAR too sexy and a threat to Islam for comfort! She drives Iranian men MAD with lust even Islam cannot control...(c; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googoosh "In 2001-03-21 during Norouz holiday Googoosh performed in Dubai. This concert was considered a homecoming for her since thousands of Iranians crossed the Persian Gulf to hear her." http://www.googoosh.tv/ Iranian women are a jealously guarded secret weapon, as you can see, FAR more dangerous to world peace than any stupid bomb! They are Aryans, not Arabs...a totally different race from Arabs, another group of beautiful women Islam tries to hide: Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities" refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them so many ways? Let's investigate your "average Arab"......here's one I know, Mahmood Al-Yousif, a blogger in Bahrain, one of my favorite Middle Eastern countries. His blog and his life are fairly open to everyone at: http://mahmood.tv/ He's a videographer and owns a video production company. His great pictures, especially of things he loves, are on: http://flickr.com/search/?q=Mahmood+Al-Yousif+&m=text .....a total ham....just like us! A couple of years ago, his wife gave him a new stainless BBQ grille for Christmas! They do Christmas like most Americans...not because they are religious, but because it's a fun thing to do...presents and all. Looks dangerous, doesn't he? Notice how he hold his scimitar to decapitate you. This is the Arab the Zionist propagandists DON'T want you to see, meet or think about. Notice how he wants the same kind of life you want...a little freedom and to be left alone to enjoy himself. You'll never see a Mahmood on American Zionist TV. That wouldn't be good for the thought police. He has more money than most Bahrainis I ever met and is far more outspoken, which gets him dragged into court by his own government and his blog banned in Bahrain by the local Islamists. But, he's a good representative of the Bahrainis I know and have met. They all love the American people, too, because WE are the country that made Bahrain filthy rich. How can anyone have such a beautiful garden....IN THE SAND?! These people, who do NOT have atomic weapons or even much of a military, are TERRIFIED of the Zionist War Mongers WHO DO HAVE ATOMIC WEAPONS and their American Government Cronies. Is it so hard to see why? They are no threat to you or me or our way of life. They'd like to sell us some oil at a fair price, taking into consideration the depleted value of our private banknotes. I love their oil, personally, and have for most of my life. It sure makes my life LOTS more pleasurable than anything the Zionist War Mongers have ever done for me...or any of you. I sat in the lobby of a really nice hotel in Bahrain enjoying some fine tea under the Imir's picture one afternoon while I was in Bahrain working on the USS Coronado, one of our two Navy support ships homeported in Bahrain's main port. A nicely dressed Saudi sat near me and notice I was a little different than most ugly Americans showing the bottom of their shoes, an insult to Arab customs, and not drinking booze the hotel serves for foreigners. He struck up a conversation with me, curious about what I did and why I was in Bahrain. He'd come to buy gold jewelry for his wives (2) over the causeway bridge from Daharan and decided to stay overnight to see a boxing match playing near the hotel, a sport Arabs love. Before we parted ways, we made a little deal. I was to come home to America and get my government to stop supporting the Zionists killing Arabs. His part was deadly serious, I still believe. His part was to make regular gasoline 50c/gallon in Charleston, SC, USA. I couldn't fix my part of the bargain, but I still believe he could have gotten that price at our pumps if I'd delivered the goods. They are THAT terrified of Zionism and its atomic bombs. Pity....Americans sure would have benefitted if the deal had gone through.....(c; |
Gas prices have doubled
Herodotus wrote in
: Jere, This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply. I'm with Peter 100%. Please notice how Peter knows the Zionist American Government, run by the banker class, is a different entity, entirely, from the American People like me and the Americans in this group. Americans are not the "enemy" of the rest of the world. Our Zionist- controlled government is.....and the blame centers in Tel-Aviv. |
Gas prices have doubled
"mmc" wrote in
ng.com: "Larry" wrote in message ... "Mike" wrote in : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q The only one telling the TRUTH.... Sadly, nobody wants to hear the truth Larry.. We'd rather let CNN, FOX, MTV, CMT, our church or political party tell us what to think and do. Saves valuable porn surfing and video gaming time. We're in a toilet, but the surge is working and there nothing really wrong with the economy so all is good, right? Could someone open up my drip just a little? aaaawwww, that's it..... I'm kind of out of the loop, myself. I haven't had a TV in the house since 1992 when my wife left. She took it with her and I never replaced the "billboard in my living room" as I refer to them. What little there is to watch on it that's "news" between the incessant spams, is a lie, a fantasy created by the shadow government. That class, by the way, is terrified of uncontrolled bloggers and especially you tube....(c; ......9/11 was INSIDE job. |
Gas prices have doubled
Thanks for the interesting info. I always wondered why the US poured
billions of $$$ into Israel and received nothing in return. They even attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty and gassed Palestinians in a prison camp. Some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen are Arabic. "Larry" wrote in message ... Jere Lull wrote in news:2008071401055675249- jerelull@maccom: But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al Quaida vs. most/all western countries? First, I've never met, seen or had any contact with an "Al Quaida" person. I've seen some government-doctored videos of an Osama Bin Laden double who didn't even look like him. I'm not sure Al Quaida even exists, outside the various government propaganda offices that keep hammering away using this term, over and over and over....like they do "terrorist". I DO know several Moslems and have for many many years. I moved to Tehran in 1977 and lived and worked for the Iranian Air Force until 28 days before the Shahanshah left in 1979. No matter what the Zionists controlling the US Government say, Iranian people do NOT hate Americans. Iranian people hate the American GOVERNMENT, and with very good reason. It threatens to kill them, just like the Israeli masters that run the American Government. Iranians, in general, are so smart they know there is a difference. Drop by Radio Shack and talk to Iranians, who seem to gravitate there for a job. They are natural merchants, so be wary of all that stuff you've bought for reasons you can't imagine...(c; I knew rich Iranians. I knew dirt poor Iranians, Azurbajanis, Kurds. A Kurdish man even the Iranians in my neighborhood had trouble communicating with stayed on after our apartment building was constructed sleeping in our common area garage. We took pity on him sleeping on his straw mat on the concrete and made a little plywood room for him in a corner of the garage so he could be warm with his little kerosene stove that made the best pot of tea I ever tasted! We communicated with him through gestures and broken Farsi. The man was huge, a natural fork lift. I saw him carry a whole 15 cuft fridge up 8 flights of stairs and not even sweat! He kept our place clean, lawn hand manicured, rooftop picnic area we made clean, did odd jobs for us. He cried when he saw the room we had made for him, probably the first home he'd ever had. We Americans were heros for the whole neighborhood once that word got out of our good deed. NOONE dared cross our lawn or mess with our stuff with such a huge Kurd standing guard by the door, his favorite position except during prayer times. I never met an Iranian who hated me in over 2 years living in a middle-class neighborhood, off the local economy....well, except for that Iranian guy who tried to shove his way in front of me at the Supershellan (supermarket) when I threatened to put that shopping cart right up his ass, to the great amusement of the very English gentleman in line behind me in his bowler hat commenting, "Good show, old boy! Good Show!" I'd easily move back to Iran anytime the religious nuts lose their grip on the Iranian government and sane people from the 21st Century started running Iran again...after all this stupid sabre rattling stopped. Hell, I used to volunteer to fly with the Iranian Air Force....great fun except for the 3 weeks we flew 24/7 to Tabbas after a 9.2 earthquake killed 25,000 people in 80 seconds flat during their dinner hour. That was awful. We flew nonstop in C-130 Hercules to feed and house the 18,000 people that survived...out in the desert outside of the totally collapsed city on the Afghan border. I bet those Iranians remember all the Americans helping load and unload the planes all night long, too. You never get tired of being hugged to death for your good deeds. I was going back to Iran as soon as they let Googoosh, the Iranian pop star, back in the country. Taxi drivers used to pop in American rock cassettes into their players for the American riders when I lived there. "No, no! Do you have Googoosh?!", I'd always ask. EVERYONE had Googoosh, a silly question. A huge smile would cross the taxi drivers face as he popped open the glove compartment for you to select your favorite Googoosh tape. He had 'em all! Ahh...cruising around Tehran at 120km/hr with Googoosh blaring out of all 4 speakers...(c; She is banned in Iran...FAR too sexy and a threat to Islam for comfort! She drives Iranian men MAD with lust even Islam cannot control...(c; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googoosh "In 2001-03-21 during Norouz holiday Googoosh performed in Dubai. This concert was considered a homecoming for her since thousands of Iranians crossed the Persian Gulf to hear her." http://www.googoosh.tv/ Iranian women are a jealously guarded secret weapon, as you can see, FAR more dangerous to world peace than any stupid bomb! They are Aryans, not Arabs...a totally different race from Arabs, another group of beautiful women Islam tries to hide: Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities" refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them so many ways? Let's investigate your "average Arab"......here's one I know, Mahmood Al-Yousif, a blogger in Bahrain, one of my favorite Middle Eastern countries. His blog and his life are fairly open to everyone at: http://mahmood.tv/ He's a videographer and owns a video production company. His great pictures, especially of things he loves, are on: http://flickr.com/search/?q=Mahmood+Al-Yousif+&m=text ....a total ham....just like us! A couple of years ago, his wife gave him a new stainless BBQ grille for Christmas! They do Christmas like most Americans...not because they are religious, but because it's a fun thing to do...presents and all. Looks dangerous, doesn't he? Notice how he hold his scimitar to decapitate you. This is the Arab the Zionist propagandists DON'T want you to see, meet or think about. Notice how he wants the same kind of life you want...a little freedom and to be left alone to enjoy himself. You'll never see a Mahmood on American Zionist TV. That wouldn't be good for the thought police. He has more money than most Bahrainis I ever met and is far more outspoken, which gets him dragged into court by his own government and his blog banned in Bahrain by the local Islamists. But, he's a good representative of the Bahrainis I know and have met. They all love the American people, too, because WE are the country that made Bahrain filthy rich. How can anyone have such a beautiful garden....IN THE SAND?! These people, who do NOT have atomic weapons or even much of a military, are TERRIFIED of the Zionist War Mongers WHO DO HAVE ATOMIC WEAPONS and their American Government Cronies. Is it so hard to see why? They are no threat to you or me or our way of life. They'd like to sell us some oil at a fair price, taking into consideration the depleted value of our private banknotes. I love their oil, personally, and have for most of my life. It sure makes my life LOTS more pleasurable than anything the Zionist War Mongers have ever done for me...or any of you. I sat in the lobby of a really nice hotel in Bahrain enjoying some fine tea under the Imir's picture one afternoon while I was in Bahrain working on the USS Coronado, one of our two Navy support ships homeported in Bahrain's main port. A nicely dressed Saudi sat near me and notice I was a little different than most ugly Americans showing the bottom of their shoes, an insult to Arab customs, and not drinking booze the hotel serves for foreigners. He struck up a conversation with me, curious about what I did and why I was in Bahrain. He'd come to buy gold jewelry for his wives (2) over the causeway bridge from Daharan and decided to stay overnight to see a boxing match playing near the hotel, a sport Arabs love. Before we parted ways, we made a little deal. I was to come home to America and get my government to stop supporting the Zionists killing Arabs. His part was deadly serious, I still believe. His part was to make regular gasoline 50c/gallon in Charleston, SC, USA. I couldn't fix my part of the bargain, but I still believe he could have gotten that price at our pumps if I'd delivered the goods. They are THAT terrified of Zionism and its atomic bombs. Pity....Americans sure would have benefitted if the deal had gone through.....(c; |
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On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:58:19 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : Jere, This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply. I'm with Peter 100%. Please notice how Peter knows the Zionist American Government, run by the banker class, is a different entity, entirely, from the American People like me and the Americans in this group. Americans are not the "enemy" of the rest of the world. Our Zionist- controlled government is.....and the blame centers in Tel-Aviv. Hi Larry, Being science trained I am naturally sceptical of conspiracy theories, not to say that there is some validity and that they are not true. Hence I am somewhat loath to ascribe to a Zionist conspiracy theory however plausible it sometimes seems. But a lot of educated, informed and not anti-Jewish people are asking the same question. Why is it that Israel has such a hold on American politicians? Is it the large monied and powerful Jewish lobby and numbers of Jewish voters in the USA? Is it due to our collective guilt over the holocaust and all the evils and pogroms that have been inflicted on Jews over the centuries? I even feel the collective guilt. I bought a very scholarly book on the establishment of the state of Israel whereby it showed that the politicians responsible for promoting it were the chapel going - Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians (as opposed to Church of England - Episcopalean) British such as Disraeli and American stalwart christian politicians such as Woodrow Wilson. They were devout Bible readers as opposed to Cathoilics and Church of England devotees who seldom read the Bible with as much avidity. Unfortunately I gave this book to a Jewish former work colleague who expressed an interest so I cab no longer quote it. Excellent reading and not anti Israeli in the least. Israel's special relationship with the USA is of course convenient to the latter. When the United Nations, lead by the USA imposed a trade embargo with specific emphasis on weaponry on the South African Apartheid regime, South Africa was able to obtain what it required by way of Israel. I know that part of the exchange was Artillery manufactured in South Africa. Small arms and such as submachine guns were sent from Israel. A friend of mine who was a major in the South African army said that they often received consignments from the USA via Israel which were unopened until recieved. Though I am a practicing Moslem, I am not necessarily anti Jewish. I do believe that everyone has a right to a home and security, but the actions of the Jewish settlers just taking over Palistinian occupied lands even though their government has deemed it illegal squatting is nothing short of barbarism. The world (and myself) applauded Israel when they rescued the hostages at Entebbe in Uganda. Now that they are doing to their own citizens what the Nazi regime did to them. Nietzche said that when you look into the abbys, be careful that the abbys does not look back at you. They seem to have fallen into that abbys. The state of Israel seems to me to be like the small kid who bullies other around him and does and says what he likes because he is knows he is protected by the strongest boy on the block. To threaten a pre-emptive strike against Iran if "it feels threatened"as it has done in the last few days is tribal, base and barbaric. This excuse has been used many times over the centuries to initiate wars. It may be a good military tactic but surely we have advanced further than that. A bit like the afggressive drunk who hits a bystander because he didn't like the way he was looking at him (when he wasn't). People have to stop ascribing the conflict and other world conficts as a Moslem-Christian-Jewish divide. Much of this is hyped up by politicians and the news media, most of whose reporters are as ignorant as most of their readers of factual data. It should be considered that we Moslems are directly enjoined to respect "The peoples of the Book" - that is Chistians and Jews as well as Moslems who have common respect for the Old Testament or Torah and its additions. We all share a common Mosaic adherence. It should also be born in mind that under the various Moslem regimes throughout history, Christians and Jews were protected and thrived. It was the Turkish Sultan Suleiman who sent a fleet of ships to bring back the Sephardic Jews of Spain when they were being expelled by the Christian Isabella under pain of death. He built at his expense two large synagogues in Istanbul which are still there today. These people consider themselves Turks but still speak 15th century Spanish. They have no desire to go to Israel. Any web search on the 700 years of Islamic Spain or such as 10th century Islamic Sicily will show that these were truely enlightened civilisations with religious tolerance and integration with Jewish and Christian Vizers, judges and scholars all living harmoniously. At the time, if they wished for an education, many north Europeans travelled to Moslem countries. My favourite Catholic, Saint Francis of Assisi studied at the university in Cairo. He even requested an audience with the Sultan Saladin to convert him to Christianity. Saladin listened to and conversed with him for two days and then politely declined the offer to convert. Remember it was the Christian crusaders who under Peter the Hermit who, when he was asked how they were to tell Christians, Jews and Moslems apart as they all dressed the same, replied "Kill them all, God will know his own" It was the 4th Crusaders who sacked Byzantium, divided its lands between them and took its treasures back home (lions of Venice for example). The Ottomans only finished off a much weakened state. The only Church they turned into a mosque was Hagia Sophia. It would do well for both sides to examine the background of history as well as each other's religions. Moslems are far more allied and akin to the West than most people realise. Without them there would have been no Renaissance. How about we all try to show a bit of common sense. I thank God that I travel under the New Zealand flag. We have no enemies and what little people know of us gives us a good reception. Anyway, this is way off topic. regards Peter |
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"Thomas Flores" wrote in
: Thanks for the interesting info. I always wondered why the US poured billions of $$$ into Israel and received nothing in return. They even attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty and gassed Palestinians in a prison camp. Some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen are Arabic. I graduated from ET "A" school in 1965 and was offered PMEL (Calibration Lab) school at Lowry AFB, Colo because I was first in my class of 39. Three of the guys in my class were killed at the hands of our "friends", the Israelis aboard USS Liberty, below decks where that huge hole in the hull was. That could have very easily have BEEN ME, too! As you may have guessed, I'm no friend of Israel or the Zionist Terrorists who run it. |
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Herodotus wrote in
: How about we all try to show a bit of common sense. I thank God that I travel under the New Zealand flag. We have no enemies and what little people know of us gives us a good reception. Anyway, this is way off topic. regards Peter Peter, have you ever read about the USS Liberty from the first-hand reports of her crew in 1967? Take a look if you haven't.... http://www.gtr5.com/ Liberty was a spy ship sent to Israel to be sunk by them and blamed on Egypt so the false flaggers could drag the US military into the 6-day war to do Isreal's bidding. The valiant efforts of the captain and crew of Liberty saved the ship and thwarted the plans of US Zionists by keeping her afloat, at which time a cover story had to appear that she was mistaken for an Egyptian horse carrier that had no resemblence, whatsoever, to a US Navy spy ship bristling with hundreds of antennas over her superstructure. Hearing frantic calls from Liberty, the Sixth Fleet commander sent his jets to save Liberty and her crew from the Israeli attacks, TWICE! Each time, he was ORDERED by the highest levels of the Pentagram and White House to recall the jets as that would have ruined the plan to drag us into another war to the delight of our Federal Reserve bankers. By the way, I'm a former Christian, having been dragged into it by parents and adults since birth. I'm a practicing Atheist, today. There is no "god" and has never been one. Human superstitions run rampant throughout our history without a single shred of evidence to substantiate any of it. Those who live off superstitions make damned sure noone asks too many embarrassing questions like when was Christ born and when did it supposedly die. They don't like to talk about the following 70 years when not a single historian wrote a single sentence about such a man who could walk on water, heal the sick waving his hand and raise the dead. I find that quite curious, don't you? The myth of Jesus Christ came 3000 years after the same exact story of Horus in verifiable Egyptian stone hyeroglyphics at Luxor, another of the Zodiacal Sun Gods in a long string of Zodiacal Sun Gods. American Christians get mad if you ask them what that fish symbol and cross on the back of their minivans represents, having no idea of its Zodiac base in the age of Pisces and the shorthand cross of the Zodiac they took the ring off of many centuries ago... It will be a personal shame I cannot be here when the Procession of the Zodiac passes from Pisces into the Age of Aquarius around 2150 to see the looks on their faces when nothing happens, except in their minds.... There are some great videos on YouTube you may find enlightening: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mzciu8HvfwA Zeitgeist - The Movie....watch all 13 parts on YouTube. One whole section is about using religion to enslave us. Root of all Evil by Richard Dawkins http://youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc Professor Dawkins' view that forcing children into their parent's superstitions is child abuse. Having been a victim, I heartily agree. It's a crazy world we live in. Over 5000 humans die each DAY in the name of one religion or another. How absurd. No wonder we're hell bent on destroying the whole race as fast as possible. |
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Herodotus wrote in
: Without them there would have been no Renaissance. The number of Americans who are not professors of archiology and know about what Moslems did in Spain during the dark ages can be counted in an hour. Americans are great fodder for religious zealots even more than some place like Afghanistan. We live in a government-sponsored vacuum. |
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Peter, have you ever read about the USS Liberty from the first-hand reports of her crew in 1967? Take a look if you haven't.... Hi Larry, Yes. It happened during my first year of university and I remember watching special reports from the non-aligned networks. It was rather obvious to all what had been going on. Which brings to mind the sinking of the Maine in Havana Harbor (spelled that way for Bruce's sake) in 1898 as a prelude to taking over many of the Spanish colonial possessions such as the Philippines and converting them to American colonial possessions. By the way, I'm a former Christian, having been dragged into it by parents and adults since birth. I'm a practicing Atheist, today. There is no "god" and has never been one. Human superstitions run rampant throughout our history without a single shred of evidence to substantiate any of it. Those who live off superstitions make damned sure noone asks too many embarrassing questions like when was Christ born and when did it supposedly die. They don't like to talk about the following 70 years when not a single historian wrote a single sentence about such a man who could walk on water, heal the sick waving his hand and raise the dead. I find that quite curious, don't you? The myth of Jesus Christ came 3000 years after the same exact story of Horus in verifiable Egyptian stone hyeroglyphics at Luxor, another of the Zodiacal Sun Gods in a long string of Zodiacal Sun Gods. American Christians get mad if you ask them what that fish symbol and cross on the back of their minivans represents, having no idea of its Zodiac base in the age of Pisces and the shorthand cross of the Zodiac they took the ring off of many centuries ago... In many ways I agree with you and personally do not know if there is a God as such. It doesn't really matter at all to me. Prayer can be seen as a means of talking to one's inner self, otherwise we do so little introspection in our busy lives. It all depends on how you define or visualise God which is different for all of us. Could be an anthropomorphic bearded Michael- Angelo figure sitting on a throne or a cloud or could be merely the life force which we are all part of. There is also the need many people feel of having some path to follow and a guide to living a good life. A boyhood friend of mine who is a Catholic priest says that if simple people did not have statues of saints to pray before, they would find it difficult to focus. I have read the Bible (at a religous Christian boarding school) and for me, there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there is in the Koran and in Bhuddist sutras; as there is in some of Shakespear's sonnets and other poems. I spent a year in Kyoto many years ago and can still vividly recall some of the Haiku poems I learned such as the words that spring to mind when I see places where thousands died in war - pointlessly in the long run. "Of twenty thousand warriors life and sword and shield Naught hath remained but the summer grass Growing over the old battlefield' It is a religous poem witten by a famous Bhuddist monk. As for Christian symbolism, I could wax eloquent about such as the misinterpretation of the Greek word kourae (young girl) for 'virgin', the fact the Jesus died on a stake (word used is Greek "stauros' - the cross came in 320 years later as a former symbol of the Roman Sol Invicta - the sun God). I could go on for days in a like manner but to do so would be pointless as far as I am concerned as it is the message that should be the most important point of focus and what Christ said is some pretty impressive advice for living in many ways. Ok. It was basically from the mysticism of the Essenes who existed at the same time but regardless, it is good advice to ponder upon. I think that to more understand Jesus and his message one should examine it in the scope of the times he lived. He may or may not have been divine - thousands of people have died over that question - Nestorians, Albigensians, Arrians etc. - but just look at the message. Loving thy neighbour as thyself is not a bad way to treat your fellow man. My God, I sound like a Bible Belter!! Here endeth the lesson! Root of all Evil by Richard Dawkins http://youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc Professor Dawkins' view that forcing children into their parent's superstitions is child abuse. Having been a victim, I heartily agree. Yes, but the strange thing is that young people are now flocking back to the banners of the various churches even though their parents didn't have any religious beliefs. It's as if there is the need for that certain something that will make sense of it all that resides deep inside us all. Besides Dawkins is a bit one eyed and seems to have a basic inviolate view of what the "God" he denies is. He may be right. Have you ever nursed someone who is dieing? I have. Amazing how they "find God" when they spent their lives as atheists. As for the afterlife. To hell with it! I don't want to go to heaven and be attended by umpteen virgins. I'm sick of women at present. I want to be reincarnated as a tablecloth. At least I'd` get laid three times a day with narry a woman in sight. If some of the people I have met who believe that they are going upstairs get there, I for one certainly don't want to spend time in their company. They are just bloody boring. cheers Peter It's a crazy world we live in. Over 5000 humans die each DAY in the name of one religion or another. How absurd. No wonder we're hell bent on destroying the whole race as fast as possible. |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:48:27 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : Without them there would have been no Renaissance. The number of Americans who are not professors of archiology and know about what Moslems did in Spain during the dark ages can be counted in an hour. Hi Larry, Yes, the two main things I wanted to see in Spain when we sailed there was Gaudi's Barcelona, especially his Sagria Familia - the Cathedral that is still under construction and the Alhambra, the Moorish palace in Granada. In both places I was in the seventh heaven. It's amazing to see irrigation schemes around Andalucia that are still intact and providing water to crops that were built more than 1,000 years ago by the Moors. That era has always fascinated me and another must see was Raphael's huge wall painting in a former Pope's bedroom in the Vatican of "The School of Athens" with all the most important philosophers present. One was Avveroes - the Moslem scholar of Granada who was in communication with (Saint) Thomas Aquinas and who solved the problem of faith verses reason -duly incorporated into Catholic doctrine. Americans are great fodder for religious zealots even more than some place like Afghanistan. We live in a government-sponsored vacuum. I'd rather not comment but met a lot of well informed people in San Francisco who said they got their news about the States from foreign radio stations such as BBC and Deutsche Vela cheers Peter |
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Herodotus wrote in
: Yes, the two main things I wanted to see in Spain when we sailed there was Gaudi's Barcelona, especially his Sagria Familia - the Cathedral that is still under construction and the Alhambra, the Moorish palace in Granada. In both places I was in the seventh heaven. It's amazing to see irrigation schemes around Andalucia that are still intact and providing water to crops that were built more than 1,000 years ago by the Moors. I lived in Tehran, Iran from 1977 to 28 days before the Shahanshah was deposed in 1979. He was more reluctant than I to leave the gunfire in the streets. While I lived there, I became fascinated with Persian engineering, especially the water systems that collect rain on the tropical north side of the Alborz Mountains and funnel it into Tehran in the desert on the south side, at the expense I'm sure of thousands of slave miners' lives a few thousand years ago. The city is literally awash in running water running down a channel on each side of the streets called a jube. In small streets, modern Iranian engineers designed the jubes between the road surface and the curb, perfectly placed and just the right width to DROP YOUR TIRE INTO, proving that modern Iranian engineers have just about zero chance of building a working bomb without destroying half the country in the oops explosions that are sure to ensue. There is a wide difference between PERSIAN engineers and IRANIAN engineers, who are raised in a social system based on one of the most comical bluff systems I've ever encountered. If an instructor wants all the Iranians taking the test to have the SAME wrong answer to the test, he only needs to exit the testing room for 15 minutes and it will occur...(c; The aquaducts and tunnels carved through the mountain to the Tehran side is quite a feat of engeering still in use today. The original shah bought huge oak trees from the Israelis and planted them in little steps down Pahlavi Avenue (now renamed I'm sure) from the palace to the train station. They have grown so huge being waterered 24/7 with 12 hours of sunshine every day in the desert to create food and O2 they completely cover the 4-lane highway from storefront on one side to storefront on the other. Every little step is a separate little waterfall for the millions of gallons pouring downhill from the mountain...and makes a separate little evaporative air conditioner that cools amazingly well the entire street under this beautiful canopy of trees. If the city weren't just totally covered in dust from construction and dust storms, it would be truely beautiful. I explored both sides of the mountain where the water goes in and where it comes out...very interesting considering how many centuries separate us. The only people in peril from Iranian nuclear weapons research are the ones living around the plant's blast zone WHEN, not if, it finally goes critical and takes out the valley.... I worked with their finest who are also expert bluffers. If you look at Doshen-Tappeh Air Force Base on the NE side of Tehran, where I worked while there, using current Google Earth sat photos, you'll find the whole base without planes, trucks, cars, or anything else that looks like military activity. It's DESERTED except for a few old planes that look abandoned next to the hangar building I worked in, the largest building on the tarmac. It was a bustling array of activity in 1978-79 when I worked there, our primary mission SIGINT/ELINT of Afghanistan and Iraq along the borders where we had many mountaintop listening stations monitoring Iran's neighbors' electronic emissions....up to 18Ghz, higher than the neighbors ever transmitted...(c; |
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Herodotus wrote in
: there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there is in the Koran I bought an Enlish translation of the Koran in a bookshop in the Souk in Manama, Bahrain. It was translated by a moslem in India in the 1920's and has been reprinted ever since. The Indian publisher uses terribly primitive publishing equipment and it shows. The cover is made by hand! I learned not to read it where any Bahrainis could see me in short order to keep the lectures to a minimum. Showing an interest, they can go on for hours...(c; I find it terribly disturbing with so many gory instructions about cutting off various body parts, outright genocide or at least murders, and I can see why there is so much blood associated with Islam like the stonings of half buried people in Iran (youtube has the videos). No thanks. Mankind needs to shed itself of these killing fields caused by religions. I find it quite comforting to know that when I die, I simply don't exist any more and can be soon forgotten, like the billions before me, recycled into more life by natural selection. I don't have to "prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's problems... (c; |
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Excellent thoughts, Peter. I do disagree with the tablecloth aspect, but that's just a quibble in the greater scheme. --Vic |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:01:20 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there is in the Koran I bought an Enlish translation of the Koran in a bookshop in the Souk in Manama, Bahrain. It was translated by a moslem in India in the 1920's and has been reprinted ever since. The Indian publisher uses terribly primitive publishing equipment and it shows. The cover is made by hand! I learned not to read it where any Bahrainis could see me in short order to keep the lectures to a minimum. Showing an interest, they can go on for hours...(c; I find it terribly disturbing with so many gory instructions about cutting off various body parts, outright genocide or at least murders, and I can see why there is so much blood associated with Islam like the stonings of half buried people in Iran (youtube has the videos). No thanks. Mankind needs to shed itself of these killing fields caused by religions. I find it quite comforting to know that when I die, I simply don't exist any more and can be soon forgotten, like the billions before me, recycled into more life by natural selection. I don't have to "prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's problems... (c; The problem in imagining a religionless history is considering how much worse such a history would be. Leaving aside religions' excesses - and there is every reason to suppose those excesses would be greater without the constraints of religion-imposed "morality"- what motivations toward "good" can you point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion? You can't. There is no profit in bemoaning history. We are its final product. History is best used to refine our movement forward. --Vic |
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"Vic Smith" wrote in message
... On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:01:20 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in m: there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there is in the Koran I bought an Enlish translation of the Koran in a bookshop in the Souk in Manama, Bahrain. It was translated by a moslem in India in the 1920's and has been reprinted ever since. The Indian publisher uses terribly primitive publishing equipment and it shows. The cover is made by hand! I learned not to read it where any Bahrainis could see me in short order to keep the lectures to a minimum. Showing an interest, they can go on for hours...(c; I find it terribly disturbing with so many gory instructions about cutting off various body parts, outright genocide or at least murders, and I can see why there is so much blood associated with Islam like the stonings of half buried people in Iran (youtube has the videos). No thanks. Mankind needs to shed itself of these killing fields caused by religions. I find it quite comforting to know that when I die, I simply don't exist any more and can be soon forgotten, like the billions before me, recycled into more life by natural selection. I don't have to "prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's problems... (c; The problem in imagining a religionless history is considering how much worse such a history would be. Leaving aside religions' excesses - and there is every reason to suppose those excesses would be greater without the constraints of religion-imposed "morality"- what motivations toward "good" can you point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion? You can't. There is no profit in bemoaning history. We are its final product. History is best used to refine our movement forward. --Vic I disagree. You can only guess at what a religionless history would have been like. Morality via religion breeds behavior that is covered up by the officials and participants of the religion. Look at Major and minor religions - bad medicine (literally), priests abusing kids, "holy wars" throughout history. Look at communism - arguably a state-sponsored religion, no good can be found beyond the theory, which doesn't work in practice. Look at capitalism - reasonably ok, as long as it is constrained by the "public good" interest (however you define it), not socialism (which is really a nanny state), but enlightened self-interest, where gov't nudges itself and its citizens toward the public good based on facts not faith. I would point to science, lead by intelligent, caring people who are generally non-sectarian or can at least separate themselves from their faith beliefs. Some have claimed that science (or math) is a religion, which I'll allow, but it's based on hypothesis (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hypothesis) vs. conjecture (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=conjecture) or faith (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/we...=&o3=&h= 0000) (aka Intelligent Design). -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Jul 15, 10:00*am, Vic Smith
wrote: ...what motivations toward "good" can you point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion? You can't. ... Boats! Cruising in boats is a motivation towards good! Gald darn it! As for the rest of your argument, it's circular. It only works if you have a definition of "good" in mind before you back up and look for motivations. Luke 6:37. -- Tom. |
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One should constantly struggle not to judge others. "There except for the
Grace of God go I" .... something to repeat when tempted. wrote in message ... On Jul 15, 10:00 am, Vic Smith wrote: ...what motivations toward "good" can you point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion? You can't. ... Boats! Cruising in boats is a motivation towards good! Gald darn it! As for the rest of your argument, it's circular. It only works if you have a definition of "good" in mind before you back up and look for motivations. Luke 6:37. -- Tom. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:58:39 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Jul 15, 10:00?am, Vic Smith wrote: ...what motivations toward "good" can you point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion? You can't. ... Boats! Cruising in boats is a motivation towards good! Gald darn it! Noah was a noble and prescient man. As for the rest of your argument, it's circular. It only works if you have a definition of "good" in mind before you back up and look for motivations. Luke 6:37. Oh oh, a Bible cite. I give up (-: Now I'm sorry I followed Larry and Peter onto the path which always ends in the halls of circularity. That's why boats are so nice, with their lines always ending in a bow and stern. Wait a minute.......Rub-a-dub-dub, three men in a tub. Oh no! I've lost my compass! --Vic |
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:55:42 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: I disagree. You can only guess at what a religionless history would have been like. Yes, I agree. --Vic |
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"Dave" wrote in message
... On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:55:42 -0700, "Capt. JG" said: I would point to science, lead by intelligent, caring people who are generally non-sectarian or can at least separate themselves from their faith beliefs. You would point to them if.....? Only if someone requires an active finger..... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Gas prices have doubled
What an absolute bunch of political/religious CRAP offered for the
doubling of petro prices. The simple economic answer is: 1, The US dollar has decreased 60% versus most of the worlds currencies .... due to lack of confidence due to the current USA financial crisis (and without pointing to any blame to the liberal district US federal court policies that triggered this) 2. The worlds petro supply has probably peaked production ... no increase in production visible to accomodate the increased demand of China and India. The 'producers' are running 'flat-out' and physically cant pump more. Bush didnt do it, Buddha didnt do it, Bernacke didnt do it. There simply is not enough world petro production to meet worldwide demand. The situation for the USA will get much much worse as if the USA petro production remains restrained vs. further domestic exploration and development and the US economy goes even deeper into the tank the demand will increase while the supply is further artificially reduced by the politicians. The shame is that 'alternatives' cant possibly replace whats being artificially reduced/restrained as their supply isnt more than 'developmental' stages and are extremely inefficient, etc., it will take 15-20 yrs. to get the 'alternatives' up to any level to make any difference. Hence, I join the speculators who have targeted (bet) that energy costs will escalate on an exponential scale. This is the 'change' that our population voted for in 2006. Apparently the 'change' that was offered in 2006 was actually the few coins left in ones pocket .... just wait until the current 'tax cuts' expire and then see how much of that 'change' is left in your pocketbook. Its not going to be a happy world/USA economy for the next 18-24 months. |
Gas prices have doubled
capitalism - reasonably ok, as long as it is constrained by the "public good" interest (however you define it), not socialism (which is really a nanny state), but enlightened self-interest, where gov't nudges itself and its citizens toward the public good based on facts not faith. I disagree about your "nanny states' having been raised and nurtured by one, as compared to your capitalism as is practicised nowadays in the USA which seems not to be constrained by the "public good" but where big business combined with political self serving has led to a recession as you are currently entering. Capitalism is good, agreed, but it must have some regulatory constraints other than market forces. The social cost is too high otherwise. This has been belatedly recognised by the previously Communiist regimes. Also, regardless of people's denial of a "God", each still has his own "religion" which could be defined as a set of tenets, moral values, beliefs and understanding as to one's place in the universe. Atheism has also been described as a religion. I would point to science, lead by intelligent, caring people who are generally non-sectarian or can at least separate themselves from their faith beliefs. Some have claimed that science (or math) is a religion, which I'll allow, but it's based on hypothesis (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hypothesis) vs. conjecture (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=conjecture) or faith (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/we...=&o3=&h= 0000) (aka Intelligent Design). What part of science do you point to? Proven science (which is not a hypothesis by the way) and the true spirit and freedom of intellectual pursuit and discovery or the pseudo-science of the religious right who, when barred by a constitutional ruling to teach Intelligent Design in US schools have gotten around in in such as the state of Louisiana by the devious means of the state's proposed Science Education Act. This Act is designed to slip Intelligent design in through the back door. "Teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique and review in an objective manner the scientific theories pertinent to the course being taught" The idea that evolution has weaknesses and is therefore not a solid theory is a recurring theme in ID literature. I attended such a religious right boarding school in New Zealand. The science teacher explained "We are forced to teach the THEORY of Evolution by the curriculum. However, you all know that we don't believe it" and went on to teach evolutionary theory in a ridiculous manner that was so transparent I felt compelled to get some books on it from the town library. Evolution is not a theory. It is an established fact. There is absolutely no reason either, that you cannot uncompromisingly combine religious feelings with a belief in scientific knowledge. I had a genetics and evolution professor at university who was a Presbytarian deaconess. When I asked her if there was any conflict, she replied "The more I learn about science, the more it reinforces my belief in God" I now understand what she meant. It all depends on your personal concept of God. The "facts" of the book of Genesis were written down for the first time in the time of King Hezekiah, over 800 years from when Moses died. It was only in 1844 that a rather scholarly and widely read book was published describing dinosaur bones having been formed by "plastic force" and inspired by Satan to lead us astray. If I recall, the author was one "Werner". Sorry, I get carried away on this subject as I can see a new dark age controlled by conservative religious fundamentalists fast coming upon us. A major recession, huge unemployment and a couple of wars is all that it will take. Raw capitalism is not serving us all that well it seems by current economic events. JC, I do agree that it would be great if society was controlled by rational thinking scientists. However, human nature being what it is and has always been, self serving politicians will arise and take back control, even be it from behind the throne. Also, scientists are not divorced from ego, selfishness, greed and all the other human frailities. It just would not work unfortunately. I can give you concrete examples of where scientists whose decision on, for example, sustainable fisheries quotas, have sold out to business for personal gain. They are not evil men but it is surprising easy to overstate your projections in someone's favour when they offer you a high paying job "if you ever think of leaving the Government". Asd a result these fisheries such as the deep sea Orange Roughie have totally collapsed. As for science. How many of your politicians (or mine) could give you a tolerable account of the science behind global warming, climate change, evolution and such? Very few indeed but they are being asked to legislate for your country's benefit and survival. You have given them that power to decide on your future. Grossly Off topic but interesting, regards Peter |
Gas prices have doubled
.. I don't have to
"prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's problems... (c; Hi Larry, I'm not either. Heaven and Hell are on this Earth, here and now for each of us. It's the "what goes around, comes around effect". We each create our own heaven and hell in our lives depending on our actions. Daishon, a Bhuddist monk said, and quite rightly, that if you do good only in the hope of heaven then you will end up in hell. I think that you will agree with that. regards Peter |
Gas prices have doubled
"Herodotus" wrote in message
... capitalism - reasonably ok, as long as it is constrained by the "public good" interest (however you define it), not socialism (which is really a nanny state), but enlightened self-interest, where gov't nudges itself and its citizens toward the public good based on facts not faith. I disagree about your "nanny states' having been raised and nurtured by one, as compared to your capitalism as is practicised nowadays in the USA which seems not to be constrained by the "public good" but where big business combined with political self serving has led to a recession as you are currently entering. I am not making any claim that "our" capitalism is properly constrained. I'm saying that it should be. Clearly (or at least from my perspective) it is not and should be. Capitalism is good, agreed, but it must have some regulatory constraints other than market forces. The social cost is too high otherwise. This has been belatedly recognised by the previously Communiist regimes. No argument here. Also, regardless of people's denial of a "God", each still has his own "religion" which could be defined as a set of tenets, moral values, beliefs and understanding as to one's place in the universe. Atheism has also been described as a religion. Someone's individual belief is not what concerns me. It's the religious order that imposes ritual and dogma. I would point to science, lead by intelligent, caring people who are generally non-sectarian or can at least separate themselves from their faith beliefs. Some have claimed that science (or math) is a religion, which I'll allow, but it's based on hypothesis (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hypothesis) vs. conjecture (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=conjecture) or faith (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/we...=&o3=&h= 0000) (aka Intelligent Design). What part of science do you point to? Proven science (which is not a hypothesis by the way) and the true spirit and freedom of intellectual pursuit and discovery or the pseudo-science of the religious right who, when barred by a constitutional ruling to teach Intelligent Design in US schools have gotten around in in such as the state of Louisiana by the devious means of the state's proposed Science Education Act. Scientific Method is a good start. This Act is designed to slip Intelligent design in through the back door. "Teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique and review in an objective manner the scientific theories pertinent to the course being taught" The idea that evolution has weaknesses and is therefore not a solid theory is a recurring theme in ID literature. Well, screw them. I'm not buying. I attended such a religious right boarding school in New Zealand. The science teacher explained "We are forced to teach the THEORY of Evolution by the curriculum. However, you all know that we don't believe it" and went on to teach evolutionary theory in a ridiculous manner that was so transparent I felt compelled to get some books on it from the town library. Sounds like someone who should be fired. Evolution is not a theory. It is an established fact. There is absolutely no reason either, that you cannot uncompromisingly combine religious feelings with a belief in scientific knowledge. I had a genetics and evolution professor at university who was a Presbytarian deaconess. When I asked her if there was any conflict, she replied "The more I learn about science, the more it reinforces my belief in God" I now understand what she meant. It all depends on your personal concept of God. It is and it's also a fact: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html The "facts" of the book of Genesis were written down for the first time in the time of King Hezekiah, over 800 years from when Moses died. It was only in 1844 that a rather scholarly and widely read book was published describing dinosaur bones having been formed by "plastic force" and inspired by Satan to lead us astray. If I recall, the author was one "Werner". I love it when someone quotes the bible. Which bible? Written by whom? Translated by whom? There are so damn many. It's hard to keep them straight (or a straight face, for that matter.) Sorry, I get carried away on this subject as I can see a new dark age controlled by conservative religious fundamentalists fast coming upon us. A major recession, huge unemployment and a couple of wars is all that it will take. Raw capitalism is not serving us all that well it seems by current economic events. "Coming upon us?" You're living in the past. It's here. Don't look over your shoulder too quickly. JC, I do agree that it would be great if society was controlled by rational thinking scientists. However, human nature being what it is and has always been, self serving politicians will arise and take back control, even be it from behind the throne. Also, scientists are not divorced from ego, selfishness, greed and all the other human frailities. It just would not work unfortunately. I can give you concrete examples of where scientists whose decision on, for example, sustainable fisheries quotas, have sold out to business for personal gain. They are not evil men but it is surprising easy to overstate your projections in someone's favour when they offer you a high paying job "if you ever think of leaving the Government". Asd a result these fisheries such as the deep sea Orange Roughie have totally collapsed. I disagree. It could work if we act to control our leaps of faith that tend to creep into public policy. Despite our emotions, we can work to rid ourselves of the scourge of religion. Fortunately, I never liked that fish (Orange Roughie)... double entendre being the fricken "fish" people plaster on the back of their SUVs. As for science. How many of your politicians (or mine) could give you a tolerable account of the science behind global warming, climate change, evolution and such? Very few indeed but they are being asked to legislate for your country's benefit and survival. You have given them that power to decide on your future. Too few, but politicians are lead by the nose by the people. People make a lot of mistakes, but they eventually get it right. Grossly Off topic but interesting, regards Peter -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Gas prices have doubled
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:09:21 +1000, Herodotus said: You have given them that power to decide on your future. Damned inconvenient, those voters. Assuming you don't believe Larry's consipiracy theories of course. LOL -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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