check valve
 

Strangeness... I replaced my old bronze check valve off my main bilge pump
with a new bronze one. Basically identical to the old. It's only been a
short time and it seems to be jamming in the closed position, so that when
the automatic kicks in, the pump runs without ejecting water. This only
happens after there's a fair amount of water in the bilge, as when I've run
the engine for more than an hour (packing gland needs to be tightened, but
that's another project).

The check valve is about a foot from the Rule. Same place as before within
an inch or so. Certainly, I can return it for an exchange, but this will be
the second exchange, and besides WM being sick of exchanging it, I'm sick of
exchanging it also. Could have gotten two funky ones in a row, but perhaps
there's another explanation? The other pump/check valve doesn't seem to have
the same problem, and the only difference is that the check valve is a bit
farther away, maybe 2 feet from the pump.

Right now, the fix is pop the hose and stick a long-neck screwdriver in the
intake side of the valve, jam it a couple of times, then it seems to work
fine for some period of time.

Suggestions? Should I try a plastic one?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

check valve
 

On Jun 29, 9:19*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
Strangeness... Suggestions? Should I try a plastic one?

--
"j" ganz

A friend of mine ahd the same problem.

He had a Rule 750 with 3/4" discharge hose.
about 6" from discharge had inline check valve by whale??
Every thing worked great BEFORE installing the new check valve then
the Rule would run great but no water would discharge.

He, on my advice, **** canned teh check valve and used a Groco bronze
vented loop. Problme solved.
Pupm works fine.

Bob

check valve
 

Yes, eliminate the check valve. They can easily disable one of the most
important safety devices on your boat as you have discovered. They serve no
useful purpose on a pump that pushes the water out unless your hose to sump
volume ratio is such that the water flooding back down the hose when the
pump stops will reactivate the float switch and send the system into an
endless cycle that runs down the battery. Even in that case, no check valve
sucking up the stuff that floats around in bilges can be relied upon to stay
tight. It will still cycle, just slower. There are also significant head
losses through the check valve the reduce the amount of water the pump can
move.

If you are having cycling problems, the vented loop Bob suggests can reduce
the hose volume if you get the loop close enough to the pump.

I do have a check valve on my diaphram hand pump just because it makes it
easier to get it primed and started. It's the rubber flap valve from extra
parts for the same Guzzler pump bolted together and inserted in the end of
the hose. If it jambs, I can just pull up the hose and stick my finger in
to clear the clog or yank the check valve out.

Check valves have no place in a bilge line other than right at end of the
inlet hose.

As to why the old valve worked and the new one doesn't, welcome to the new
world order of Chinese manufacturing domination. Don't bother returning it
for another just like it.

--
Roger Long

check valve
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Yes, eliminate the check valve. They can easily disable one of the most
important safety devices on your boat as you have discovered. They serve
no useful purpose on a pump that pushes the water out unless your hose to
sump volume ratio is such that the water flooding back down the hose when
the pump stops will reactivate the float switch and send the system into
an endless cycle that runs down the battery. Even in that case, no check
valve sucking up the stuff that floats around in bilges can be relied upon
to stay tight. It will still cycle, just slower. There are also
significant head losses through the check valve the reduce the amount of
water the pump can move.

If you are having cycling problems, the vented loop Bob suggests can
reduce the hose volume if you get the loop close enough to the pump.

I do have a check valve on my diaphram hand pump just because it makes it
easier to get it primed and started. It's the rubber flap valve from
extra parts for the same Guzzler pump bolted together and inserted in the
end of the hose. If it jambs, I can just pull up the hose and stick my
finger in to clear the clog or yank the check valve out.

Check valves have no place in a bilge line other than right at end of the
inlet hose.

As to why the old valve worked and the new one doesn't, welcome to the new
world order of Chinese manufacturing domination. Don't bother returning
it for another just like it.


I was thinking about a loop, but how the heck to I install one? It's a
fairly shallow bilge, and I would have to vent it somewhere... another hole
in the boat?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

check valve
 

On 2008-06-30 12:09:03 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I was thinking about a loop, but how the heck to I install one? It's a
fairly shallow bilge, and I would have to vent it somewhere... another hole
in the boat?

That's a question I'd love answered, as well. The only idea I could
come up with was a vented loop under the head sink, snaked to the stern
along the side, but that's a 10' extension to the run.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

check valve
 

On Jun 30, 8:09*am, "Capt. JG" wrote:

I was thinking about a loop, but how the heck to I install one?

Uhh, pretty simple in most cases. Go to Groco online and look at the
installatoin requirments.


It's a
fairly shallow bilge, and I would have to vent it somewhere... another hole
in the boat?

ganz

Now im really confused. Your "vented loop" doesnt need a vent..... it
sucks.... it just needs a place to discharge your bilge, of which you
allready have one hopfully ABOVE the water line.

I must be reading your response wrong....... or (insert criticism
here) !


thumb thouroug a WM catalogue they sometimes have an installation
digram but any of the manfg will also have it online or try Nigal
Calder how to fix boat stuff.

Long day im tired did too many amazing accomplishments today.
Bob

check valve
 

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Jun 30, 8:09 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:

I was thinking about a loop, but how the heck to I install one?

Uhh, pretty simple in most cases. Go to Groco online and look at the
installatoin requirments.

I'll check it out....

It's a
fairly shallow bilge, and I would have to vent it somewhere... another
hole
in the boat?

Now im really confused. Your "vented loop" doesnt need a vent..... it
sucks.... it just needs a place to discharge your bilge, of which you
allready have one hopfully ABOVE the water line.

I must be reading your response wrong....... or (insert criticism
here) !

I was just responding to the idea about the vented loop... I think you
mentioned it.

thumb thouroug a WM catalogue they sometimes have an installation
digram but any of the manfg will also have it online or try Nigal
Calder how to fix boat stuff.

Long day im tired did too many amazing accomplishments today.
Bob






--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

check valve
 

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008070101010550073-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-06-30 12:09:03 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I was thinking about a loop, but how the heck to I install one? It's a
fairly shallow bilge, and I would have to vent it somewhere... another
hole
in the boat?

That's a question I'd love answered, as well. The only idea I could come
up with was a vented loop under the head sink, snaked to the stern along
the side, but that's a 10' extension to the run.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Yeah, that would be way too far for me. One possibility would be in the
engine space. It's only a couple of feet from the primary bilge area.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

check valve
 

Just got back from a two night cruise.

You don't need to vent the loop outside the boat. It's just a return bend
with a one way valve that lets air in if a siphon tries to start. It's
identical to the loop you have, or should have, on the top of the water
intake for the head. In fact, you can use one of those. The closer you can
get the loop to the pump, the less back flow water you'll have because the
vent will let the air in and water on one side of the loop will go overboard
and the other side will run back into the bilge.

Roger

check valve
 

In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
Just got back from a two night cruise.

You don't need to vent the loop outside the boat. It's just a return bend
with a one way valve that lets air in if a siphon tries to start. It's
identical to the loop you have, or should have, on the top of the water
intake for the head. In fact, you can use one of those. The closer you can
get the loop to the pump, the less back flow water you'll have because the
vent will let the air in and water on one side of the loop will go overboard
and the other side will run back into the bilge.

I took a look at the WM site and found an example of a vented loop. Looks like it might fit, but I'm not sure where yet. It can either be within a foot or so, or it would have to be at least 3 feet away in the engine space. I'll have to check it out.

check valve
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote

I took a look at the WM site and found an example of a vented loop. Looks
like it might fit, but I'm not sure where yet. It can either be within a
foot or so, or it would have to be at least 3 feet away in the engine
space. I'll have to check it out.


The vent has to be above the discharge and waterline for there to be any
point to it. "within a foot or so" would be OK if you just mean the lateral
distance and not the hose length. The loop should be just as high in the
boat as you can get it, ideally, just under the deck. If your bilge
discharge is high enough above the waterline, you don't really need a vented
loop except to keep surveyors happy. My bilge discharges are just ahead of
the transom and nearly a foot above the water line so I haven't added vents
to the lines which loop even higher under the cockpit coaming. It's
something I'll probably do before going very far off shore though. If the
boat was low in the water due to flooding and the pumps stopped, a back
siphon could be created.

--
Roger Long

check valve
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote

I took a look at the WM site and found an example of a vented loop. Looks
like it might fit, but I'm not sure where yet. It can either be within a
foot or so, or it would have to be at least 3 feet away in the engine
space. I'll have to check it out.


The vent has to be above the discharge and waterline for there to be any
point to it. "within a foot or so" would be OK if you just mean the
lateral distance and not the hose length. The loop should be just as high
in the boat as you can get it, ideally, just under the deck. If your
bilge discharge is high enough above the waterline, you don't really need
a vented loop except to keep surveyors happy. My bilge discharges are
just ahead of the transom and nearly a foot above the water line so I
haven't added vents to the lines which loop even higher under the cockpit
coaming. It's something I'll probably do before going very far off shore
though. If the boat was low in the water due to flooding and the pumps
stopped, a back siphon could be created.

--
Roger Long


Good grief! More vented loop idiocy. STOP THE INSANITY!!!!!!

You vented loop people are confused. Vented loops are a good thing in a
sewage system so your toilet doesn't flood out of the bowl and fill up your
boat. They are a safety device to break any possibility of a siphon on the
intake side of a toilet. The intake side is necessarily placed under the LWL

To put one on a bilge pump is folly - pure folly. In order to keep a bilge
pump from siphoning all one needs do is have the bilge pump discharge above
the LWL of the vessel.

Place the discharge thru-hull about two feet up from the LWL and on the
transom and you have ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for a vented loop. Duh! But, that
idiot drug sponge Ganze will probably install one anyway since he has my
wisdom kill filed. Somebody else please clue the loser in.

Tarnal hell but you Rubes have no business anywhere near the water. Joe
juniors all of you!

Wilbur Hubbard

check valve
 

In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote

I took a look at the WM site and found an example of a vented loop. Looks
like it might fit, but I'm not sure where yet. It can either be within a
foot or so, or it would have to be at least 3 feet away in the engine
space. I'll have to check it out.


The vent has to be above the discharge and waterline for there to be any
point to it. "within a foot or so" would be OK if you just mean the lateral
distance and not the hose length. The loop should be just as high in the
boat as you can get it, ideally, just under the deck. If your bilge
discharge is high enough above the waterline, you don't really need a vented
loop except to keep surveyors happy. My bilge discharges are just ahead of
the transom and nearly a foot above the water line so I haven't added vents
to the lines which loop even higher under the cockpit coaming. It's
something I'll probably do before going very far off shore though. If the
boat was low in the water due to flooding and the pumps stopped, a back
siphon could be created.

This is an area that I need to investigate. I was down at the boat and took some time to look at the situation that develops. It looks like there's enough back-pressure on the line that it ends up jamming the flapper against the body of the valve enough to cause it to jam (not every time, but often enough, obviously). When I get in there with a screwdriver and force it open, the water that's trapped comes shooting out with a fair amount of force.

The discharge is well above the waterline - at least 18" or so, which would mean the loop (as you point out) would have to go higher. It's not a problem at the transom... plenty of room to do that via the stern laz. I definitely need to have something to prevent backflow. We typically get following seas, even coming back from someplace local. Come back through the the Gate, as I did last Sunday, and you definitely get a big following sea.

I'm wondering if there'll be so much backflow that the pump will continue to cycle. What do you think about a vented loop near the transom as you suggest, plus a check valve near the pump? Seems like this would prevent the flooding/back siphon and give the pump a break.

check valve
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

To put one on a bilge pump is folly - pure folly. In order to keep a bilge
pump from siphoning all one needs do is have the bilge pump discharge
above the LWL of the vessel.


I assume though, that he is looking for a solution that doesn't involve
hauling the boat to relocate a through hull fitting.

With a long hose run, a vented loop can cut the amount of back flow
considerably if placed close to the pump. This makes for a less water in
the bilge even if back flow cycling is not a problem.

As far as keeping the discharge above the waterline, it has to be above the
HEELED waterline. This means near the centerline, thus the stern, on any
boat which is sailed hard which brings up the long hose run issue. The
heeling problem might not be apparent on a 27 foot boat that just sits in
one place but, if you really sail, a discharge near any probable bilge pump
location could start a back siphon while driving hard if the pump goes on
and stops. On a long tack, such as might be done on a passage, you could
end up with a significant amount of water in the boat if the pump failed to
restart.

--
Roger Long

check valve
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote

The discharge is well above the waterline - at least 18" or so,

But where longitudinally? It, or the top of the loop, has to be above the
waterline when the boat is heeled to the deckedge. You many not sail that
hard much, but you want the margin. If you are sailing that hard because of
trying to get off a lee shore or being unable to make sail reductions, the
last thing you need is some bilge flooding.

I definitely need to have something to prevent backflow. We typically get
following seas, even coming back from someplace local. Come back through
the the Gate, as I did last Sunday, and you definitely get a big following
sea.

The amount of water a following sea will push back down the hose isn't
likley to be significant. A plain loop up to deck level at the transom will
take care of that.

What do you think about a vented loop near the transom as you suggest,
plus a check valve near the pump?

Repeat after me, NO Check Valves, except in hose ends of hand bilge pumps to
speed priming. They will always have enough crud in them to let the water
flow back slowly and increase the chances of clogging in the other
direction. Standard electric bilge pumps don't have enough pressure head to
push crud through. They can barely clear air locks.

Check first that you really have a back flow problem. Just replace the
check valve with a nipple connector and run it. If it doesn't cycle when
you shut it off, don't worry about it.

It sounds like your discharge is in the transom, if so, just add enough hose
to create a loop right there. I wouldn't worry about the siphon break for
sailing around the bay. If you get in a situation where you are flooded
enough to bring the static waterline down 18", you'll be on the radio
anyway. The waves coming up astern are not going to push enough water into
the hose to get over a high (unvented) loop and start a siphon.

The water comes up the counter and actually immerses the bilge pump
discharges on "Strider" at full power. I once flooded the bilges a bit and
started the pumps to see if I could get a siphon going. Didn't happen.
Flow past the openings at 6.5 knots makes it pretty hard for water to flow
back into the hoses after the pumps shut off.

--
Roger Long

check valve
 

In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

To put one on a bilge pump is folly - pure folly. In order to keep a bilge
pump from siphoning all one needs do is have the bilge pump discharge
above the LWL of the vessel.


I assume though, that he is looking for a solution that doesn't involve
hauling the boat to relocate a through hull fitting.

You assume correctly. (Neal is just as ass.) See my other post if you haven't already.

With a long hose run, a vented loop can cut the amount of back flow
considerably if placed close to the pump. This makes for a less water in
the bilge even if back flow cycling is not a problem.

I have two choices about where to locate a loop. One is near the transom. The other is in the engine space, which is perhaps 3 feet from the pump. I'm inclined to think that the latter would make it much more difficult for the pump, having to overcome the height in short distance. The former solution might cause some backflow/pump cycling, but I can't know until I try it. It's certainly easier for the former solution.

As far as keeping the discharge above the waterline, it has to be above the
HEELED waterline. This means near the centerline, thus the stern, on any
boat which is sailed hard which brings up the long hose run issue. The
heeling problem might not be apparent on a 27 foot boat that just sits in
one place but, if you really sail, a discharge near any probable bilge pump
location could start a back siphon while driving hard if the pump goes on
and stops. On a long tack, such as might be done on a passage, you could
end up with a significant amount of water in the boat if the pump failed to
restart.

I would never try to discharge on the side. It's a stern discharge now, and it will remain that way.

check valve
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
easolutions...
In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

To put one on a bilge pump is folly - pure folly. In order to keep a
bilge
pump from siphoning all one needs do is have the bilge pump discharge
above the LWL of the vessel.


I assume though, that he is looking for a solution that doesn't involve
hauling the boat to relocate a through hull fitting.

You assume correctly. (Neal is just as ass.) See my other post if you
haven't already.

Poor Ganz is soooo confused. Not only that, but he is a liar. For, he wrote
the following in this very same thread: "The discharge is well above the
waterline - at least 18" or so, which would mean the loop (as you point out)
would have to go higher."

I ask you how can 18" above the LWL under the water line? Besides, only an
idiot would locate the discharge from a bilge pump below the waterline. Not
even Ganz is that stupid.

Please inform Ganz that he can't have it both ways. Duh. And they gave this
guy a Captain's license? Crying shame.

Wilbur Hubbard

check valve
 

In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote

The discharge is well above the waterline - at least 18" or so,

But where longitudinally? It, or the top of the loop, has to be above the
waterline when the boat is heeled to the deckedge. You many not sail that
hard much, but you want the margin. If you are sailing that hard because of
trying to get off a lee shore or being unable to make sail reductions, the
last thing you need is some bilge flooding.

It's about two feet (perhaps a bit more) off centerline.

You can see it he

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....45247473780210

And here from the port side:

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20053195620770

I definitely need to have something to prevent backflow. We typically get
following seas, even coming back from someplace local. Come back through
the the Gate, as I did last Sunday, and you definitely get a big following
sea.

The amount of water a following sea will push back down the hose isn't
likley to be significant. A plain loop up to deck level at the transom will
take care of that.

If that's the case, then I should try it without the vent.

What do you think about a vented loop near the transom as you suggest,
plus a check valve near the pump?

Repeat after me, NO Check Valves, except in hose ends of hand bilge pumps to
speed priming. They will always have enough crud in them to let the water
flow back slowly and increase the chances of clogging in the other
direction. Standard electric bilge pumps don't have enough pressure head to
push crud through. They can barely clear air locks.

No Check Valves. :)

Check first that you really have a back flow problem. Just replace the
check valve with a nipple connector and run it. If it doesn't cycle when
you shut it off, don't worry about it.

Well, there is a considerable amount of pressure after I clear the current valve with a screwdriver. :)

It sounds like your discharge is in the transom, if so, just add enough hose
to create a loop right there. I wouldn't worry about the siphon break for
sailing around the bay. If you get in a situation where you are flooded
enough to bring the static waterline down 18", you'll be on the radio
anyway. The waves coming up astern are not going to push enough water into
the hose to get over a high (unvented) loop and start a siphon.

I'll try it. I don't mind putting in a vented loop, however. Is there a significant down-side?

I'm more concerned about the big following seas found just offshore. We were surfing a week ago.

The water comes up the counter and actually immerses the bilge pump
discharges on "Strider" at full power. I once flooded the bilges a bit and
started the pumps to see if I could get a siphon going. Didn't happen.
Flow past the openings at 6.5 knots makes it pretty hard for water to flow
back into the hoses after the pumps shut off.

Interesting..

check valve
 

Here's another pic of the discharge. Not sure why I said it before, but the discharge is on the starboard side, not the port side. The port side is engine discharge. I must be dyslexic today.

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20431152743042

check valve
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Here's another pic of the discharge. Not sure why I said it before, but
the discharge is on the starboard side, not the port side. The port side
is engine discharge. I must be dyslexic today.


Druglexic more like it. And not just today, everyday.

--
Gregory Hall

check valve
 

The location of the loop will have no effect on how hard the pump works, at
least not that can be measured. The easy location, close to the pump, will
have minimum backflow and will be ideal. Only possible drawback I can see
is that the engine heat will make the little rubber flapper in the siphon
break dry out and need replacement slightly sooner. This isn't the big deal
it would be with sewage. Even if it leaks a bit, you probably would never
notices.

Go for it.

Roger

check valve
 

No need for a vented loop on those but it's probably worth putting in just
to reduce the back flow and amount of water in the bilge.

While you're at it perhaps we should revisit my current thinking on bilge
pumps ad currently done on "Strider".

The Rule, et. a., pumps often have a short life sitting in the bilge water.
Most of the water they pump is in very small amounts. The hose sized for
the pump to save your boat is large enough to cause a lot of backflow and
water in the bilge with a transom discharge. The answer to both problems is
two pumps. The first, in your current location, would be a small pump with
a 1/2 or 5/8 hose. This will easily deal with condensation, stuffing box
drips, etc. It will also make less noise and draw less current. The
second pump would be located high enough above the bilge that it will always
be dry, it can have a simple float switch because, if it is ever needed, it
will probably go on and stay on until the battery runs down. This pump
would be the largest appropriate for the hose diameter.

You could put a Tee a couple feet downstream of the vented loop and run the
small pump into that. If only the big pump was running, some water would
divert back into the bilge but, mose likely, the litte pump would already be
working against a leak that was simply faster than it could keep up with.

The ideal thing would be a second line for the primary (small) pump. I
would run this out the counter bottom just ahead of the transom.

--
Roger Long

check valve
 

In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
The location of the loop will have no effect on how hard the pump works, at
least not that can be measured. The easy location, close to the pump, will
have minimum backflow and will be ideal. Only possible drawback I can see
is that the engine heat will make the little rubber flapper in the siphon
break dry out and need replacement slightly sooner. This isn't the big deal
it would be with sewage. Even if it leaks a bit, you probably would never
notices.

Go for it.

Famous last words! :)

So, you think the vented loop would be fine in the engine space vs. in the transom? I don't think the engine temp will have that much of an effect. I'm also going to go to a dripless system at the next haulout.

check valve
 

In article ,
Roger Long wrote:
No need for a vented loop on those but it's probably worth putting in just
to reduce the back flow and amount of water in the bilge.

While you're at it perhaps we should revisit my current thinking on bilge
pumps ad currently done on "Strider".

The Rule, et. a., pumps often have a short life sitting in the bilge water.
Most of the water they pump is in very small amounts. The hose sized for
the pump to save your boat is large enough to cause a lot of backflow and
water in the bilge with a transom discharge. The answer to both problems is
two pumps. The first, in your current location, would be a small pump with
a 1/2 or 5/8 hose. This will easily deal with condensation, stuffing box
drips, etc. It will also make less noise and draw less current. The
second pump would be located high enough above the bilge that it will always
be dry, it can have a simple float switch because, if it is ever needed, it
will probably go on and stay on until the battery runs down. This pump
would be the largest appropriate for the hose diameter.

You could put a Tee a couple feet downstream of the vented loop and run the
small pump into that. If only the big pump was running, some water would
divert back into the bilge but, mose likely, the litte pump would already be
working against a leak that was simply faster than it could keep up with.

The ideal thing would be a second line for the primary (small) pump. I
would run this out the counter bottom just ahead of the transom.

I was also thinking about a second pump at some point. Right now, I have two... one for the primary and one for the shower sump. But neither would help much for a major leak.

check valve
 

In article ,
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:11:21 -0500, lid (Jonathan
Ganz) wrote:

Here's another pic of the discharge. Not sure why I said it before, but the discharge is on
the starboard side, not the port side. The port side is engine discharge. I must be dyslexic
today.

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20431152743042


Congrats on your "funny" this morning!

I had one posted too long ago.

I laughed when my friend sent it too me... haven't see it show it yet here though. I knew it was accepted, but sometimes they change things.