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The High Cost of Cruising
Well, to make you feel a little better, you are double counting the $10k
lost opportunity cost and the $10 k you would have received in interest. They are the same thing; count only once. "Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky |
The High Cost of Cruising
Cruising is driving me to the poor house.
I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
... Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky Short answer.. get a sailboat as Roger suggested, or you can move to China (lol). Even including taking classes, which I recommend if you don't know how to sail or it's been a while, you'll be way ahead. I easily go a whole summer without using 1/2 tank. If you gain confidence, you can anchor out a lot, and perhaps you'll save a few $$ on dockspace. You'll need insurance and have repair bills. Forget about depreciation. Forget about resale value. Forget about opportunity cost. For every day you sail, you get to add that day to your lifespan! -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky Think 'downsize'...and the sooner the better. |
The High Cost of Cruising
Dnia Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:40:12 -0400, Tim Shavinsky napisał(a):
Cruising is driving me to the poor house. (...) Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky Greece, perhaps? And most of the Med, I guess? I cannot state their attitude towards Americans, but the country is certainly worth consideration. Lots of Britons there (which may be advantage or disadvantage ;-) ). English is widely spoken, climate and geography perfect for cruising. Personally, I plan to move to Corfu Island on February and make it my basecamp to explore the whole Mediterranean for next couple years. More options can be found at http://www.retiretothesun.com/ At the moment they are offline, but normally you'd find tons of information there. As for your cruising costs, that is interesting issue. As a future liveaboard I am keen to analyse it. I may have some practical suggestions regarding two items on your list. Perhaps somebody else would add more. 1. Fuel. For a rather heavy diesel working less than an hour per day, I would try to do three things: - check up the biofuel option, which becomes more and more promising here in Europe. - implement photovoltaic and wind generators to cut the engine time and load when topping your batteries up. - the major change would be switching into hybrid-electric system, one smaller diesel or petrol (LPG fueled) electric generator, that in turn powers electric engines and propellers. Having it done properly, you may cut your fuel rate by 20 percent. It would also raise the reselling value of your boat. 2. Dockspace. I do not know your boat, but here (http:// www.yachtworks.info/Compare_Marinas.htm) you'll find raw estimates. Cheers, Peter -- *** no offence meant, no offence taken *** |
The High Cost of Cruising
The thing is costing me $32,000 a year!
So you get off cheap, eh? I ran the numbers, once. Sure, it's a lot of money. But if you can't afford it then it's not worth it. Stress management has it's price. The admiral does state, categorically, that will will not be stopping at fuel docks during retirement. Which is fine, but meanwhile we both recognize the time=money proposition. Right now our time is worth the money being spent. |
The High Cost of Cruising
Tim Shavinsky wrote:
Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. We haven't cruised yet this season, but last year the four of us went on about five long weekend trips. I spent about $50 total in fuel. We stayed in five different really cool marinas and had some mild adventures, exploring. The boat hasn't depreciated that I know of. I paid $7500 for it about five years ago. It's a '79 Hunter 33'. Sleeps five. No insurance. I paid about a hundred for the tabs. I have it anchored off a buddy's property, no cost there. A great investment, IMO. Stephen |
The High Cost of Cruising
Sold mine when I realized it cost me about a thousand bucks a night to sleep
on it. "Bill Kearney" wrote in message ... The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! So you get off cheap, eh? I ran the numbers, once. Sure, it's a lot of money. But if you can't afford it then it's not worth it. Stress management has it's price. The admiral does state, categorically, that will will not be stopping at fuel docks during retirement. Which is fine, but meanwhile we both recognize the time=money proposition. Right now our time is worth the money being spent. |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... Tim Shavinsky wrote: Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. We haven't cruised yet this season, but last year the four of us went on about five long weekend trips. I spent about $50 total in fuel. We stayed in five different really cool marinas and had some mild adventures, exploring. The boat hasn't depreciated that I know of. I paid $7500 for it about five years ago. It's a '79 Hunter 33'. Sleeps five. No insurance. I paid about a hundred for the tabs. I have it anchored off a buddy's property, no cost there. A great investment, IMO. Stephen I hope you have at least liability insurance. An accident could ruin your day. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The High Cost of Cruising
On 2008-06-23 11:40:12 -0400, Tim Shavinsky said:
Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky If you drop the opportunity cost (already gone) and depreciation, your actual numbers are in better shape. Lose the dock (and house?) and anchor out and you're down to fuel, insurance and maintenance. Slow it down a knot or so, and you'll likely boost fuel economy. Slow your life down to cruising speed and you'll likely live longer, cheaper. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The High Cost of Cruising
Jere Lull wrote:
If you drop the opportunity cost (already gone) Its gone? Not if you can sell the boat and invest the proceeds and depreciation, your actual numbers are in better shape. Yes, ignoring reality makes everything look better. Or, one can get a boat that is essentially worthless, like Neal. Lose the dock (and house?) and anchor out like Neal and you're down to fuel, insurance and maintenance. why stop there, Neal wouldn't have insurance Slow it down a knot or so, and you'll likely boost fuel economy. Slow your life down to cruising speed and you'll likely live longer, cheaper. So Neal is going to outlive us all??? |
The High Cost of Cruising
....
Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. Think of it this way: It's a bear market and interest rates are low. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to have sold the boat last year and bought an investment house or the S&P 500 or GE or most anything else and lost your money or lost more than your money if you leveraged things with a mortgage. You've got the opportunity to go boating. Some folks have the opportunity to find out if their Bear Stearns stock will look nice on the living room wall. Opportunity isn't money in the bank. So, credit yourself $18k for staying out of a loosing market, put the boat on a mooring and drive a little slower. Shoots, now it's cheap therapy. -- Tom. |
The High Cost of Cruising
It doesn't cost, it pays! See my erudite comments interspersed within your
text below. "Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. If you owned a well-found, blue water sailboat with small four-stroke outboard engine, fuel, even at today's confiscatory prices, for a year's cruising might cost all of 50 bucks. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Anybody who keeps their boat at a dock paying absurd by-the-foot prices is an imbecile. Find a place where your can moor your boat and put down your own mooring. You suddenly have eliminated a major expense and you will not be storing your yacht among the floating trailer park trash crowd that snoops and steals anything not welded down. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Forget the insurance. It is not needed and is a bet against yourself. Think of it this way. If the insurance company is willing to bet that you will not have claims exceeding what you have paid them then shouldn't you be willing to have the same faith in your abilities to avoid claims? Maintenance is another story. There will always be maintenance but you should be handy enough to do all the labor yourself so you will only be paying for parts and materials. This shouldn't amount to a great deal of money and, done right with quality, will increase the value of your yacht. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Stupid to buy any boat that depreciates. The worst thing you can do is purchase a new boat because you take a huge hit the first five years or so. Buy used and buy quality. Maintain your boat to Bristol standards and it will appreciate. Forget about trawlers. They are just slow stinkpots. Get a sailboat instead. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. What the hell is opportunity cost? Are you talking about loan interest. If so you are again stupid. NEVER buy something unless you can pay cash for it. Never pay more than you can afford to take a hit on re the interest investment hit you might take on your assets. Your very first priority should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . . . The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! You and a lot of other stupid, brainwashed Americans are in the same boat. You never learned how to manage your money. You have fallen prey to the consume at all cost liberal mindset. You have made yourself a willing slave to institutions. Stupid, stupid, stupid. If you were like me you would have bought a quality blue water sailing yacht like I did way back in 1985. You would have paid cash for it. You would never have spent one thin dime on dockage, mooring, insurance, yard labor, etc. Do it right and your boat MAKES you a ton of money. Let's round off the years I've owned my yacht to an even 20. Then consider the fact that I've lived aboard for the whole of that period of time and cruised thousands of miles under sail using almost no fuel. I've bought a couple sets of sails to replace worn out ones but that cost is negligible - less than two grand. Then there's bottom paint, etc but that can also be done on the cheap by careening in an area that has sufficient tides. So take 20 years times 10,000 for that is the cost in dollars per year it takes to rent or buy a house and you come up with 200,000. So my fine yacht has allowed me to invest 200,000 dollars over the years besides being the ultimate freedom machine. Also, don't buy an automobile, you won't need one cruising anyway that will save you 100,000 dollars over 20 years. That's 300,000 dollars. Dockage fees save = 100,000. Total of 400,000 Invest that sum intelligently and over a 20 year period you will be worth over 1.5 million dollars. Simple rules, simple goals and you will be simply rich. Do a couple cocaine runs to Colombia and some Cuban cigar smuggling and some Cuban immigrant smuggling and add another million. Suddenly you're worth about three million dollars. And you're free of any debts and obligations and taxes and undue government interference. If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. You have an inkling of what it takes to be financially responsible. Now, you've got to act to start the money rolling in instead of going out. But, you can't be some little wimp who has to have air conditioning, washer dryers, refrigerator/freezers, cable TV and all that other crap that just makes you a slave to what you own and keeps you stuck in one place working for the man and paying taxes out your rear end. Stop being a brainwashed liberal and stop supporting a liberal government that brainwashes you into living to pay for a giant bureaucracy. Grow some gonads and simplify and live the good life. Independent, uncomplicated, healthy, stress free and pollution free. Lose the diesel mentality because the fumes alone will slowly kill you even if the cost of it doesn't. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Nope. The only real solution is get rid of large fuel hog motors. They will drive you into the poor house as fuel will be 10-15 dollars a gallon within the next three or four years. Plan on living like a slave paying 60-70 percent of your wages on big government Democrat welfare plans such as socialized medicine and increased welfare and all this carbon credit tax nonsense. Vote for Barack Obama and really become a slave. You think you have financial problems now just wait until Obama drives the economy into the crapper so the Great Depression looks like a cake walk. But, if you're like me it won't bother you one bit. As a matter of fact I have placed myself in a position to sail away to some place where I can spend all my millions that are secure in offshore banks without one dime going to big government give-away programs. You should think about doing the same. Wilbur Hubbard |
The High Cost of Cruising
Wilbur has about answered most all your questions.
with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Wilbur missed addressing the question of American-friendly countries. Take a look at: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/524/glob...rs-and-leaders You get to take your pick of the remaining America-friendly countries. The leaders of the pack include such great cruising destinations as: Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, India ... Pew's more recent research suggests that America-friendliness is up in Nigeria and India. And fuel is right cheap in Nigeria. So there you go! Cheers |
The High Cost of Cruising
I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My response:
1. I did not count opportunity cost twice. 2. Opportunity cost is explained he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost 3. It is foolish to ignore opportunity cost. 4. I have some sailing experience so that is helpful. It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.Solar panels should supply all my energy needs. Since I have the time I can do most of the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some friendly country south of the border. I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently in the first place. Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go cruising: a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition. b. Live aboard on a mooring. c. Buy a sailboat. d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself. e. Rely on solar power. f. Watermaker????? Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet. What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer a diesel inboard auxiliary. Also what is the downside to living on a mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean. Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group. Tim Shavinsky |
The High Cost of Cruising
I strongly recommend taking a look at what Wilbur Hubbard has done. He has
minimized the expenses and maximized the enjoyment of world class blue water cruising. What is most amazing is that he has done this all out of personal philosophy, rather than economic necessity, decades before the current economic upheaval. He seems to have the amazing power to see beyond the years and can extract the essence necessary for a life well lived. He is also a master mariner, specializing in sailboats, so he can offer sound advice based upon many years of experience. Few ever find fault with his sagely words. "Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:48:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" said: Your very first priority should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . . And just how do you expect to earn interest without lending money? How about buying bonds? How about buying half a dozen shares of Berkshire Hathaway" Wilbur Hubbard |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Jun 24, 8:26*am, "Doug Dapner" wrote:
I strongly recommend taking a look at what Wilbur Hubbard has done. He has minimized the expenses and maximized the enjoyment of world class blue water cruising. What is most amazing is that he has done this all out of personal philosophy, rather than economic necessity, decades before the current economic upheaval. He seems to have the amazing power to see beyond the years and can extract the essence necessary for a life well lived. He is also a master mariner, specializing in sailboats, so he can offer sound advice based upon many years of experience. Few ever find fault with his sagely words. "Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... Cruising is driving me to the poor house. I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be 100K in the hole. On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining *me, I am seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same mess? I figure I need *25 years of retirement funds and won't make it with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Tim Shavinsky- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Pretty good troll over all Wilbur/Neal/Doug/Tim but you blew it when you took your own hook line and sinker. Try harder Wilbur, this one was patheticly transparent Fred |
The High Cost of Cruising
Almost... see my comments...
"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.Solar panels should supply all my energy needs. Since I have the time I can do most of the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some friendly country south of the border. I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently in the first place. Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go cruising: a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition. The type of boat is also important. You're likely going to be spending a fair amount of time doing short cruises vs. long ones. Most of your time is spent aboard in a marina vs. actual sailing (80-90%), so comfort is important when not moving, just as crew comfort is important when moving. The tradeoff are something like fin vs. full keel, single vs. monohull. b. Live aboard on a mooring. I wouldn't recommend this, especially not at first. Get used to the boat. Nothing will turn off your wife (or perhaps you) faster than having to use the head in a cramped spot day in and day out, or have to go ashore because you forgot one little thing, or staying below during rain, etc. Give you and her time to adjust by keeping it at a dock. c. Buy a sailboat. Even though you have some sailing experience, take lessons. Also, sail as many different boats as you can manage before you buy one. Sail 20 to 30 different kinds. This will give you a much better idea what you really like and don't like, and it'll help you decide what compromises you're willing to make. d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself. Yes, but don't hesitate to get help if you need it. Some repairs and maintenance if done wrong will make your life miserable, all for the sake of a few more dollars... the old penny wise and pound foolish theory. e. Rely on solar power. You won't be able to do this completely. It will help, but isn't a cure-all for power. You need to carefully assess your power consumption needs/desires, and act accordingly. f. Watermaker????? Expensive, but perhaps worth the cost. Consumes a fair amount of power, except for a mechanical method, such as the one that was linked to in another thread (which won't work while stationary I believe). Don't forget to have ample tankage aboard for fuel, waste, and water. I believe someone has posted a guide to describe actually living aboard in this newsgroup... It's funny and accurate. Bascially, you're cramming yourself into a double-wide closet for months at a time. Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet. Why? I wouldn't go below 30 or 34 and not above whatever you can afford after you do the money calculation. 27 is incredibly small. I have a 30, and I wouldn't want to have to live on it for any length of time unless we were underway. Remember, for every day you're sailing, the boat gets a foot shorter if more than one person is aboard. LOL What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer a diesel inboard auxiliary. Also what is the downside to living on a mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean. Impossible to say... there are so many possibilities. Don't discount the west coast so quickly. There are lots of places that can be reasonable, especially in the short-term, and there's a lot to see. Of course, the conditions are a bit more challenging on the northern part of the coast. As you move south, the winds lighten and the conditions generally mellow. San Diego/Catalina, for example have excellent sailing, and weather much like the Carib. Also, Mexico is relatively close... inexpensive, lightly populated, easy to cruise. Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group. Tim Shavinsky -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The High Cost of Cruising
32 feet is a sweet spot in smaller cruising sailboats. It's about the
minimum size in which you can get full headroom without excessive freeboard and cabin height, odd proportions, or no bilge. The waterline length is getting long enough for reasonable speed and a rigid dinghy will often fit on deck somewhere although usually on the foredeck. However, I think it is probably the absolute minimum size for most couples to live aboard full time if it is of normal, post WWII, proportions. You might want to take a look at the website for my 32 foot Endeavour: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm These are great and underappreciated boats. Very comfortable, reasonable turn of speed, driest boat I ever sailed, great handling characteristics if you like a nimble and quick turning boat. Many boats this maneuvarable have control problems when over pressed and driven hard but, as long as you keep the speed up, the E32 will nearly always do what you need her to do. The construction is an odd mix, lots of wood and nice visual detail but clearly built for low cost in a yard were the crew was kept happy with unlimited ganja. Construction is crude and heavy but solid with no core in critical places to require expensive and difficult replacement 3 decades later. The interior and cockpit are very intelligently laid out. I bought mine when I was looking for a cheap boat and thought it would be used primarily for daysailing and weekends. I then discovered a greatly renewed interest in sailing and cruising and discovered that I had gotten a great boat. You could do worse than picking up one of these put plan on putting about 1.5 times the purchase price into it. If you are downgrading from the trawler you describe, you can probably buy a higher quality and more expensive boat but money in the bank is freedom. I like the E32's characteristics so much that there are few 32 - 34 foot boats I would trade her for just to get higher quality and better reputation. -- Roger Long |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:23:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" said: Your very first priority should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . . How about buying bonds? How about buying half a dozen shares of Berkshire Hathaway" When you buy bonds, you're lending to the issuer of the bonds. When you buy Berkshire Hathaway you're getting dividends (and perhaps capital gains when you sell), not interest. You only earn interest by lending. Semantics. You get a return on your investment. You don't lend; you purchase a product that escalates in value if you're smart about. You are not "lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock. Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be paid back over a period of time with interest. Dummy! Wilbur Hubbard |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:56:04 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: The construction is an odd mix, lots of wood and nice visual detail but clearly built for low cost in a yard were the crew was kept happy with unlimited ganja. Still finding them butts, eh? --Vic |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:12:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Dave" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:23:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" said: Your very first priority should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . . How about buying bonds? How about buying half a dozen shares of Berkshire Hathaway" When you buy bonds, you're lending to the issuer of the bonds. When you buy Berkshire Hathaway you're getting dividends (and perhaps capital gains when you sell), not interest. You only earn interest by lending. Semantics. You get a return on your investment. You don't lend; you purchase a product that escalates in value if you're smart about. You are not "lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock. Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be paid back over a period of time with interest. I think the "borrower or lender" saw is meant to suggest "don't take risk." Might be wrong. Bonds and stocks involve risk. Gov guaranteed CD's, which money is lent out by the CD issuer, presumably have no risk. But hey, that was Polonius talking, and he was full of it anyway. Or so sayeth scholars, averring that he spoke in what were cliches even in the 15th century. We've come a long way, and some of our cliches even farther. --Vic |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Jun 24, 6:17*am, Tim Shavinsky wrote:
... Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed *means to go cruising: ... It would help to define the problem better. Are you planning to day hop down to Ecuador and then moor the boat until you run aground on your discarded mutton bones or what? What kind of living are you happy with? Would you agree with Capt'n Nat that the only time a man needs to stand up in his boat is when he puts his pants on or do you need room below for a little tai chi? Right now all I can really figure is that you are feeling poor (welcome to the club) and that you like the water (don't we all). With only that as a starting point I bet most folks will say "the 'wisest' choice is a boat like mine". That can be amusing, particularly as some people will editorialize extravagantly, but isn't likely to get answers really focused on your particular needs. -- Tom. |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:12:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" said: You are not "lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock. Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be paid back over a period of time with interest. So you didn't get beyond high school, Wilbur?. Ph.D.! A bond holder is a creditor--someone who has lent money to the issuer, or who bought the debt from the person who originally lent the money. Wrong. When I buy a government treasury bond for a thousand dollars it is as good as a 1000 dollar bill as far as being secure. But, unlike the 1000 dollar bill, which depreciates along with the inflation rate, it grows in value at a guaranteed rate of increase. For 1000 dollars I BUY a piece of paper that inceases in value and is guaranteed to do so. It is no different than buying an ounce of gold except gold has a downside risk while the treasury bond does not. I am not lending, I am buying. Case closed. Wilbur Hubbard |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... . Bonds and stocks involve risk. Gov guaranteed CD's, which money is lent out by the CD issuer, presumably have no risk. Governments get around that one by allowing inflation to depreciate the value of your investment. Sure, you get your money back but it is not worth the same as when you put it in. |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Vic Smith" wrote
Still finding them butts, eh? No, they must have vacuumed pretty well:) It's the almost total lack of any true 90 degree angles in the otherwise nicely fitted cabin joinerwork and stuff like that. I took off some of the deck liners which are a Naugahide like fabric stabled over plywood. The staples on the pack side were about 1/8" apart. You could just see how some poor soul got a job away from the resin fumes and was going to make it last a long as possible. The staples go alonglike that for a couple of panels at this improbable spacing and you can see where the supervisor came in and screamed at him because they suddenly start running at about 1 1/2 inch intervals. I've gotten used to the lack of symmetry and funny angles. It gives the boat a homey "built by Hobbits" character. It's still the nicest interior I've seen in a glass boat in that price range. -- Roger Long |
The High Cost of Cruising
"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message ... I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My response: 1. I did not count opportunity cost twice. 2. Opportunity cost is explained he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost More lame attempts at politically correct, liberal, thought police, mind control. Turns out opportunity cost is just another term created to confuse the issue which issue is the simple, old fashioned term - investment analysis. The first thing you need to do if ever you wish to become a successful cruiser who earns money instead of ****es away money is to learn to recognize liberal thought control speech. Then when you learn that you can refuse to use such language to brainwash yourself. Don't do the work of the 1984 fascist crowd for them. Stand on your own two hind legs and learn how to think like and be a man or you will never become a man - just some herky jerky automaton. 3. It is foolish to ignore opportunity cost. It is even more foolish to use that term. Stop it please! 4. I have some sailing experience so that is helpful. Excellent! That is more than some here, such as Capt. JG can realistically claim. It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee. A man does not *convince* the wife. A man instructs his wife. He tells her how things are going to be. If she doesn't like it she can find another man. It's that simple. That's the first thing. The next thing is NEVER buy a sailboat because the wife happens to like the way it looks inside. Never was a woman born who understands sailboat accommodations. A woman must be forced to adapt to the vessel and not vice versa. This doesn't mean the vessel has to be spartan but it must be practical for sailing and this practicality dictates, to a great extent, layout. Forget about large skating rink varnished teak and holly soles. Forget about two or three heads with shower stalls and hot water on tap. Forget about three burner ranges with oven. Forget about hair dryers, large clothes closets and all that crap females think is essential. Go with a good, basic, blue water vessel such as an Allied Seawind 32. You can hardly do better than that. Small enough to single-hand but large and capable enough to circumnavigate. Mooring and/or anchoring is the only way to go. Find yourself a nice quiet home port and put down a mooring and make this your base from which to range freely. It's always nice to come home to your own secure mooring after an extensive world cruise or even shorter trips to where ever. Solar panels should supply all my energy needs. Good man. You can purchase about a 400 watt solar array and you will have all your energy requirements fulfilled. Even enough for a small refrigerator. Since I have the time I can do most of the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some friendly country south of the border. Insure the hell out of that trawler then torch it some night when you are 'out of town'. Use the settlement to buy a quality named sailboat of 30-33 feet. Don't buy anything bigger as it becomes too much of a chore to afford and/or handle. I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently in the first place. Yes, that's me alright. I have never been fooled by economic brainwashing. People used to say I needed insurance. But I noticed some of the most expensive downtown skyscrapers belonged to insurance companies. They said you should borrow in order to buy but I couldn't help noticing the large number of huge, prosperous banks downtown. Many said I needed an expensive automobile but I couldn't help noticing how huge and prosperous most car dealerships and the auto industry had become. In other words all it takes is to open one's eyes and to understand upon which side of one's bread the butter is on. These so-called necessary things for me to have were an obvious rip off or the buildings and fortunes wouldn't have been apparent enough for even a retard to see. Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go cruising: a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition. With a quality name! Avoid the Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, Ericsons, Morgans, Pearsons, Irwins, Islanders, Tartans, C &Cs, Soverels and that other cheap mass produced garbage. Look instead to yachts with respectable names such as Pacific Seacraft, Allied, Hinterhoeller, Cape Dory, Bayfield, Bristol, Baba, Sparkman and Stephens, Cabo Rico (look at some CR 34s - you can't do much better than that for quality and resale) b. Live aboard on a mooring. Definitely. And don't fall into the trap of an inflatable dinghy as a ship's tender. Get a quality hard GRP dinghy such as a Fatty Knees instead. Row it! Forget about the outboard engine for it is a pain in the butt and will get stolen real fast in many cruising grounds. c. Buy a sailboat. d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself. e. Rely on solar power. Yes, yes! Forget the watermaker. Too expensive initially and the upkeep, cleaning and gasket, o-ring and filter expense is prohibitive. Plan to use very little fresh water and haul it to your boat in plastic, five-gallon jerry cans. Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet. What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? You can't go wrong in the 27-foot range with a Coronado 27, a Dana (Pacific Seacraft) 24 (really a 27) or a Cape Dory or Bristol 27. Island Packet 27-32s hold their value well but I don't think they are that well built to justify the high purchase price. Oh, don't even consider any multi-hull. They are way overpriced and dangerous as they capsize if you just happen to sneeze into the mainsail too hard. It would be me and my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer a diesel inboard auxiliary. A small Yanmar diesel two cylinder is acceptable. Make sure it has a compression relief and can be hand cranked in case the batteries go dead. Install a high-output alternator. But use it sparingly and make sure the propeller is sized and pitched to properly match the torque and rpm's. Two-bladed only as three bladed props cause so much drag that they can add days to a voyage. Also what is the downside to living on a mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean. There are no downsides to living on a mooring other than the idiot who drops a small aluminum anchor right upwind and immediately proceeds to drag down on your vessel. You need to plan to be around most of the time, especially on week-ends when most of the idiots come out of the woodwork so you can run their arses off when they endanger your vessel with their stupidity and rude lubberliness. Finding suitable mooring sites is becoming more and mored difficult in this over crowded and over regulated world. But you can still find them. You just have to cruise around and ask around. Keep your eyes open. If you find a good spot make sure you keep your distance as far away as possible from any boats already moored there. Don't dare run a generator of any sort and don't run your diesel unless you are downwind of everybody. Respect the rights of those who arrived before you did. Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group. You are welcome. It's nice to be able to impart some of my vast knowledge about cruising and living aboard to any interested party. Wilbur Hubbard |
The High Cost of Cruising
I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about $6,000. The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year. Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year. Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year. Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year. The thing is costing me $32,000 a year! Short answer.. get a sailboat as Roger suggested, or you can move to China (lol). Even including taking classes, which I recommend if you don't know how to sail or it's been a while, you'll be way ahead. I easily go a whole summer without using 1/2 tank. If you gain confidence, you can anchor out a lot, and perhaps you'll save a few $$ on dockspace. You'll need insurance and have repair bills. Forget about depreciation. Forget about resale value. Forget about opportunity cost. For every day you sail, you get to add that day to your lifespan! HUH??? Only 6K of that is Fuel.... Dockspace, maintenance, insurance and Depr will be similar for a similar priced sailboat. Alternatives for dockage are also the same. So sail vs trawler is only about a 20% difference in this example. BTW.. if you want to feel better about your 6K in fuel... I just canceled my 10 day Exuma run because that trip alone from FLL to Exuma and back in a 48' FBSF was going to be 8K. I can spend 5 weeks in keys with dockage and fuel for 1/2 of that.... |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:16:39 -0700 (PDT), Bil
wrote: Wilbur has about answered most all your questions. with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone. Wilbur missed addressing the question of American-friendly countries. Take a look at: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/524/glob...rs-and-leaders You get to take your pick of the remaining America-friendly countries. The leaders of the pack include such great cruising destinations as: Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, India ... Pew's more recent research suggests that America-friendliness is up in Nigeria and India. And fuel is right cheap in Nigeria. So there you go! Cheers And so is piracy. It is one of the worst regions for it |
The High Cost of Cruising
On 2008-06-24 13:12:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said: You are not "lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock. Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be paid back over a period of time with interest. Bonds or CDs are simply giving money to an entity in receipt for a *promise* from them to pay you that value plus a bit some time in the future. Whether you equate that giving to 'lending' or 'buying', all you have in return is a promise. At most, it's a piece of paper with intrinsic value of $0.000007. The higher the risk of your not getting the full value back, the more they promise to give you back. TANSTAAFL! -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:48:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: If you owned a well-found, blue water sailboat with small four-stroke outboard engine That's an oxymoron. There are *no* well-found blue water sailboats with outboard engines. |
The High Cost of Cruising
On 2008-06-24 09:17:58 -0400, Tim Shavinsky said:
Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet. What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I'd walk the docks and yards and "try on" every boat you can find. First thing we do is climb into the permanent berth(s), particularly at your size. I'm 5'10" and Pat is petite, but easily 70% of the small (and medium) boats we see fail that simple test. Yes, a settee may be comfortable and a great size, but making it up and breaking it down gets old fast. After that, inspect the rest of the living arrangements, the galley, the head, stowage, cockpit. Lastly, worry about the cleanliness, upgrades, and such. Expect the electronics to be toast, or nearly. Performance, handling, configuration and that sort of thing might separate two otherwise-equal boats, but are of little consequence long-term. My one exception to that is draft if you're intending to cruise skinny water like the Chesapeake or Bahamas. Learn a bit about surveying in general and find out what to look for, what to avoid, what "good bones" are. Pascoe's http://yachtsurvey.com/ is a good start. When we were looking, anything below 33' was heavily discounted because few wanted the multitude that existed. In this market, you might get some deals in larger boats, but I suspect 35' will be the break-point. Quality "unknown" boats are surprisingly cheap, but you gotta do your homework on the net. Now might be a good time to look at the charter fleets. The charter companies get boats that are simple for the charterers and cost the companies less to maintain, and I suspect some fleets are hurting. Also what is the downside to living on a mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this in the US? A mooring is only slightly more secure than anchoring out, with a lot of very close neighbors in a harbor that can be busy. Rock and roll! We used to moor the boat for our mostly weekending lifestyle, but now spend the bucks for a slip because of the many conveniences it gives, though we hardly ever stay at the dock overnight. Wouldn't moor as a live-aboard. From what I've heard, and from our preferences, we'd rank best cruising grounds in the US roughly: Chesapeake, Long Island Sound, Maine, North Carolina Inner Banks. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The High Cost of Cruising
On 2008-06-24 12:56:04 -0400, "Roger Long" said:
If you are downgrading from the trawler you describe, you can probably buy a higher quality and more expensive boat but money in the bank is freedom. Yup! A small boat and a bag of cash will beat one tied to the bank every time. I like the E32's characteristics so much that there are few 32 - 34 foot boats I would trade her for just to get higher quality and better reputation. Similar for us, except that exactly one 34' boat that we've boarded had improved livability, but it's quality sucked. Other than that, the boats that were a significant upgrade were at least 37', and significant money. We have preferred to accumulate the cash instead of being tied to the bankers. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The High Cost of Cruising
On 2008-06-24 15:48:14 -0400, "Roger Long" said:
"Vic Smith" wrote Still finding them butts, eh? No, they must have vacuumed pretty well:) It's the almost total lack of any true 90 degree angles in the otherwise nicely fitted cabin joinerwork and stuff like that. Oh gawd, there ain't more than a dozen 90-degree angles on Xan. Should have seen me measure and remeasure both sides of the bulkheads I was replacing. I couldn't believe the hull could flare that much in 3/4". I believe most of the non-90 is because they needed to have the flair to get the molded parts out of the molds. I don't believe any of the vertical panels other than the main bulkhead are actually square to the sole, though the difference is subtle. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The High Cost of Cruising
On 2008-06-24 17:25:07 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said: A man does not *convince* the wife. A man instructs his wife. Wilbur, will you get it in your head that some don't WANT to single-hand? And getting rid of a wife and/or maintaining her separately will DEFINITELY destroy his finances. Other than that, a good post with mostly good, solid points. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:52:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Pretty good troll over all Wilbur/Neal/Doug/Tim but you blew it when you took your own hook line and sinker. Try harder Wilbur, this one was patheticly transparent It doesn't seem to matter as long as he has plenty of people (of his own invention) to talk to. Pathetic. |
The High Cost of Cruising
Do you think the OP was Neal? If so, he finally snookered me.
-- Roger Long |
The High Cost of Cruising
On Jun 25, 9:46*am, "Roger Long" wrote:
Do you think the OP was Neal? *If so, he finally snookered me. -- Roger Long No doubt. It is one of his classics to justify his meager existance on a small little boat welded to a chain attached to an old chevy engine block. The guy makes Sybil look perfectly normal. Fred |
The High Cost of Cruising
wrote in message
... On Jun 25, 9:46 am, "Roger Long" wrote: Do you think the OP was Neal? If so, he finally snookered me. -- Roger Long +No doubt. It is one of his classics to justify his meager existance on +a small little boat welded to a chain attached to an old chevy engine +block. + +The guy makes Sybil look perfectly normal. + +Fred FYI, Neal is no longer on his boat. Sad, but true. At least then, he had a some claim as a "liveaboard." -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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