"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:23:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Your very first priority
should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU
interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . .

How about buying bonds? How about buying half a dozen shares of Berkshire
Hathaway"

When you buy bonds, you're lending to the issuer of the bonds. When you
buy
Berkshire Hathaway you're getting dividends (and perhaps capital gains
when
you sell), not interest. You only earn interest by lending.

Semantics. You get a return on your investment. You don't lend; you purchase
a product that escalates in value if you're smart about. You are not
"lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock.
Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be paid
back over a period of time with interest.

Dummy!

Wilbur Hubbard

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:56:04 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

The
construction is an odd mix, lots of wood and nice visual detail but clearly
built for low cost in a yard were the crew was kept happy with unlimited
ganja.

Still finding them butts, eh?

--Vic

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:12:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:23:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Your very first priority
should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU
interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . .

How about buying bonds? How about buying half a dozen shares of Berkshire
Hathaway"

When you buy bonds, you're lending to the issuer of the bonds. When you
buy
Berkshire Hathaway you're getting dividends (and perhaps capital gains
when
you sell), not interest. You only earn interest by lending.

Semantics. You get a return on your investment. You don't lend; you purchase
a product that escalates in value if you're smart about. You are not
"lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock.
Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be paid
back over a period of time with interest.

I think the "borrower or lender" saw is meant to suggest "don't take
risk." Might be wrong. Bonds and stocks involve risk.
Gov guaranteed CD's, which money is lent out by the CD issuer,
presumably have no risk.
But hey, that was Polonius talking, and he was full of it anyway.
Or so sayeth scholars, averring that he spoke in what were cliches
even in the 15th century. We've come a long way, and some of our
cliches even farther.

--Vic

On Jun 24, 6:17*am, Tim Shavinsky wrote:
...
Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed *means to go
cruising: ...

It would help to define the problem better. Are you planning to day
hop down to Ecuador and then moor the boat until you run aground on
your discarded mutton bones or what? What kind of living are you
happy with? Would you agree with Capt'n Nat that the only time a man
needs to stand up in his boat is when he puts his pants on or do you
need room below for a little tai chi? Right now all I can really
figure is that you are feeling poor (welcome to the club) and that you
like the water (don't we all). With only that as a starting point I
bet most folks will say "the 'wisest' choice is a boat like mine".
That can be amusing, particularly as some people will editorialize
extravagantly, but isn't likely to get answers really focused on your
particular needs.

-- Tom.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:12:11 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

You are not
"lending" when you buy (notice the word buy!) bonds or by shares of stock.
Lending is to hand over money to a client and then expect to have it be
paid
back over a period of time with interest.

So you didn't get beyond high school, Wilbur?.

Ph.D.!

A bond holder is a creditor--someone who has lent money to the issuer, or
who bought the debt from the person who originally lent the money.

Wrong. When I buy a government treasury bond for a thousand dollars it is as
good as a 1000 dollar bill as far as being secure. But, unlike the 1000
dollar bill, which depreciates along with the inflation rate, it grows in
value at a guaranteed rate of increase. For 1000 dollars I BUY a piece of
paper that inceases in value and is guaranteed to do so. It is no different
than buying an ounce of gold except gold has a downside risk while the
treasury bond does not. I am not lending, I am buying. Case closed.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
. Bonds and stocks involve risk.
Gov guaranteed CD's, which money is lent out by the CD issuer,
presumably have no risk.

Governments get around that one by allowing inflation to depreciate the
value of your investment.
Sure, you get your money back but it is not worth the same as when you put
it in.

"Vic Smith" wrote

Still finding them butts, eh?

No, they must have vacuumed pretty well

It's the almost total lack of any true 90 degree angles in the otherwise
nicely fitted cabin joinerwork and stuff like that. I took off some of the
deck liners which are a Naugahide like fabric stabled over plywood. The
staples on the pack side were about 1/8" apart. You could just see how some
poor soul got a job away from the resin fumes and was going to make it last
a long as possible. The staples go alonglike that for a couple of panels at
this improbable spacing and you can see where the supervisor came in and
screamed at him because they suddenly start running at about 1 1/2 inch
intervals.

I've gotten used to the lack of symmetry and funny angles. It gives the
boat a homey "built by Hobbits" character. It's still the nicest interior
I've seen in a glass boat in that price range.

--
Roger Long

"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My response:

1. I did not count opportunity cost twice.

2. Opportunity cost is explained he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

More lame attempts at politically correct, liberal, thought police, mind
control. Turns out opportunity cost is just another term created to confuse
the issue which issue is the simple, old fashioned term - investment
analysis. The first thing you need to do if ever you wish to become a
successful cruiser who earns money instead of ****es away money is to learn
to recognize liberal thought control speech. Then when you learn that you
can refuse to use such language to brainwash yourself. Don't do the work of
the 1984 fascist crowd for them. Stand on your own two hind legs and learn
how to think like and be a man or you will never become a man - just some
herky jerky automaton.

3. It is foolish to ignore opportunity cost.

It is even more foolish to use that term. Stop it please!


4. I have some sailing experience so that is helpful.

Excellent! That is more than some here, such as Capt. JG can realistically
claim.

It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way
to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying
an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I
will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger
boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to
convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.

A man does not *convince* the wife. A man instructs his wife. He tells her
how things are going to be. If she doesn't like it she can find another man.
It's that simple. That's the first thing. The next thing is NEVER buy a
sailboat because the wife happens to like the way it looks inside. Never was
a woman born who understands sailboat accommodations. A woman must be forced
to adapt to the vessel and not vice versa. This doesn't mean the vessel has
to be spartan but it must be practical for sailing and this practicality
dictates, to a great extent, layout. Forget about large skating rink
varnished teak and holly soles. Forget about two or three heads with shower
stalls and hot water on tap. Forget about three burner ranges with oven.
Forget about hair dryers, large clothes closets and all that crap females
think is essential.

Go with a good, basic, blue water vessel such as an Allied Seawind 32. You
can hardly do better than that. Small enough to single-hand but large and
capable enough to circumnavigate.

Mooring and/or anchoring is the only way to go. Find yourself a nice quiet
home port and put down a mooring and make this your base from which to range
freely. It's always nice to come home to your own secure mooring after an
extensive world cruise or even shorter trips to where ever.

Solar panels should
supply all my energy needs.

Good man. You can purchase about a 400 watt solar array and you will have
all your energy requirements fulfilled. Even enough for a small
refrigerator.


Since I have the time I can do most of
the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it
drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because
of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some
friendly country south of the border.

Insure the hell out of that trawler then torch it some night when you are
'out of town'. Use the settlement to buy a quality named sailboat of 30-33
feet. Don't buy anything bigger as it becomes too much of a chore to afford
and/or handle.


I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger
than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an
economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently
in the first place.

Yes, that's me alright. I have never been fooled by economic brainwashing.
People used to say I needed insurance. But I noticed some of the most
expensive downtown skyscrapers belonged to insurance companies. They said
you should borrow in order to buy but I couldn't help noticing the large
number of huge, prosperous banks downtown. Many said I needed an expensive
automobile but I couldn't help noticing how huge and prosperous most car
dealerships and the auto industry had become.

In other words all it takes is to open one's eyes and to understand upon
which side of one's bread the butter is on. These so-called necessary things
for me to have were an obvious rip off or the buildings and fortunes
wouldn't have been apparent enough for even a retard to see.

Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go
cruising:

a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition.

With a quality name! Avoid the Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, Ericsons,
Morgans, Pearsons, Irwins, Islanders, Tartans, C &Cs, Soverels and that
other cheap mass produced garbage. Look instead to yachts with respectable
names such as Pacific Seacraft, Allied, Hinterhoeller, Cape Dory, Bayfield,
Bristol, Baba, Sparkman and Stephens, Cabo Rico (look at some CR 34s - you
can't do much better than that for quality and resale)

b. Live aboard on a mooring.

Definitely. And don't fall into the trap of an inflatable dinghy as a ship's
tender. Get a quality hard GRP dinghy such as a Fatty Knees instead. Row it!
Forget about the outboard engine for it is a pain in the butt and will get
stolen real fast in many cruising grounds.


c. Buy a sailboat.

d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself.

e. Rely on solar power.

Yes, yes!

Forget the watermaker. Too expensive initially and the upkeep, cleaning and
gasket, o-ring and filter expense is prohibitive. Plan to use very little
fresh water and haul it to your boat in plastic, five-gallon jerry cans.

Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen
the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet.
What boats would you guys recommend that I look at?

You can't go wrong in the 27-foot range with a Coronado 27, a Dana (Pacific
Seacraft) 24 (really a 27) or a Cape Dory or Bristol 27. Island Packet
27-32s hold their value well but I don't think they are that well built to
justify the high purchase price. Oh, don't even consider any multi-hull.
They are way overpriced and dangerous as they capsize if you just happen to
sneeze into the mainsail too hard.

It would be me and
my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a
solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer
a diesel inboard auxiliary.

A small Yanmar diesel two cylinder is acceptable. Make sure it has a
compression relief and can be hand cranked in case the batteries go dead.
Install a high-output alternator. But use it sparingly and make sure the
propeller is sized and pitched to properly match the torque and rpm's.
Two-bladed only as three bladed props cause so much drag that they can add
days to a voyage.

Also what is the downside to living on a
mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this
in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type
of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean.

There are no downsides to living on a mooring other than the idiot who drops
a small aluminum anchor right upwind and immediately proceeds to drag down
on your vessel. You need to plan to be around most of the time, especially
on week-ends when most of the idiots come out of the woodwork so you can run
their arses off when they endanger your vessel with their stupidity and rude
lubberliness.

Finding suitable mooring sites is becoming more and mored difficult in this
over crowded and over regulated world. But you can still find them. You just
have to cruise around and ask around. Keep your eyes open. If you find a
good spot make sure you keep your distance as far away as possible from any
boats already moored there. Don't dare run a generator of any sort and don't
run your diesel unless you are downwind of everybody. Respect the rights of
those who arrived before you did.


Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group.

You are welcome. It's nice to be able to impart some of my vast knowledge
about cruising and living aboard to any interested party.

Wilbur Hubbard

I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about
$6,000.

The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year.

Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year.

Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year.

Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year.

The thing is costing me $32,000 a year!



Short answer.. get a sailboat as Roger suggested, or you can move to China
(lol). Even including taking classes, which I recommend if you don't know
how to sail or it's been a while, you'll be way ahead. I easily go a whole
summer without using 1/2 tank. If you gain confidence, you can anchor out
a lot, and perhaps you'll save a few $$ on dockspace. You'll need
insurance and have repair bills. Forget about depreciation. Forget about
resale value. Forget about opportunity cost. For every day you sail, you
get to add that day to your lifespan!



HUH???

Only 6K of that is Fuel.... Dockspace, maintenance, insurance and Depr will
be similar for a similar priced sailboat. Alternatives for dockage are
also the same. So sail vs trawler is only about a 20% difference in this
example.

BTW.. if you want to feel better about your 6K in fuel... I just canceled my
10 day Exuma run because that trip alone from FLL to Exuma and back in a 48'
FBSF was going to be 8K. I can spend 5 weeks in keys with dockage and fuel
for 1/2 of that....

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:16:39 -0700 (PDT), Bil
wrote:

Wilbur has about answered most all your questions.

with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Wilbur missed addressing the question of American-friendly countries.
Take a look at:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/524/glob...rs-and-leaders

You get to take your pick of the remaining America-friendly countries.
The leaders of the pack include such great cruising destinations as:
Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, India ...

Pew's more recent research suggests that America-friendliness is up in
Nigeria and India. And fuel is right cheap in Nigeria. So there you
go!

Cheers

And so is piracy. It is one of the worst regions for it