I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My response:

1. I did not count opportunity cost twice.

2. Opportunity cost is explained he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

3. It is foolish to ignore opportunity cost.

4. I have some sailing experience so that is helpful.


It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way
to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying
an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I
will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger
boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to
convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.Solar panels should
supply all my energy needs. Since I have the time I can do most of
the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it
drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because
of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some
friendly country south of the border.

I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger
than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an
economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently
in the first place.

Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go
cruising:

a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition.

b. Live aboard on a mooring.

c. Buy a sailboat.

d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself.

e. Rely on solar power.

f. Watermaker?????




Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen
the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet.
What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and
my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a
solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer
a diesel inboard auxiliary. Also what is the downside to living on a
mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this
in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type
of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean.

Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group.

Tim Shavinsky

Almost... see my comments...

"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way
to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying
an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I
will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger
boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to
convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.Solar panels should
supply all my energy needs. Since I have the time I can do most of
the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it
drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because
of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some
friendly country south of the border.

I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger
than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an
economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently
in the first place.

Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go
cruising:

a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition.

The type of boat is also important. You're likely going to be spending a
fair amount of time doing short cruises vs. long ones. Most of your time is
spent aboard in a marina vs. actual sailing (80-90%), so comfort is
important when not moving, just as crew comfort is important when moving.
The tradeoff are something like fin vs. full keel, single vs. monohull.


b. Live aboard on a mooring.

I wouldn't recommend this, especially not at first. Get used to the boat.
Nothing will turn off your wife (or perhaps you) faster than having to use
the head in a cramped spot day in and day out, or have to go ashore because
you forgot one little thing, or staying below during rain, etc. Give you and
her time to adjust by keeping it at a dock.

c. Buy a sailboat.

Even though you have some sailing experience, take lessons. Also, sail as
many different boats as you can manage before you buy one. Sail 20 to 30
different kinds. This will give you a much better idea what you really like
and don't like, and it'll help you decide what compromises you're willing to
make.

d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself.

Yes, but don't hesitate to get help if you need it. Some repairs and
maintenance if done wrong will make your life miserable, all for the sake of
a few more dollars... the old penny wise and pound foolish theory.

e. Rely on solar power.

You won't be able to do this completely. It will help, but isn't a cure-all
for power. You need to carefully assess your power consumption
needs/desires, and act accordingly.

f. Watermaker?????

Expensive, but perhaps worth the cost. Consumes a fair amount of power,
except for a mechanical method, such as the one that was linked to in
another thread (which won't work while stationary I believe). Don't forget
to have ample tankage aboard for fuel, waste, and water.

I believe someone has posted a guide to describe actually living aboard in
this newsgroup... It's funny and accurate. Bascially, you're cramming
yourself into a double-wide closet for months at a time.

Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen
the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet.

Why? I wouldn't go below 30 or 34 and not above whatever you can afford
after you do the money calculation. 27 is incredibly small. I have a 30, and
I wouldn't want to have to live on it for any length of time unless we were
underway. Remember, for every day you're sailing, the boat gets a foot
shorter if more than one person is aboard. LOL

What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and
my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a
solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer
a diesel inboard auxiliary. Also what is the downside to living on a
mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this
in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type
of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean.

Impossible to say... there are so many possibilities. Don't discount the
west coast so quickly. There are lots of places that can be reasonable,
especially in the short-term, and there's a lot to see. Of course, the
conditions are a bit more challenging on the northern part of the coast. As
you move south, the winds lighten and the conditions generally mellow. San
Diego/Catalina, for example have excellent sailing, and weather much like
the Carib. Also, Mexico is relatively close... inexpensive, lightly
populated, easy to cruise.

Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group.

Tim Shavinsky



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

32 feet is a sweet spot in smaller cruising sailboats. It's about the
minimum size in which you can get full headroom without excessive freeboard
and cabin height, odd proportions, or no bilge. The waterline length is
getting long enough for reasonable speed and a rigid dinghy will often fit
on deck somewhere although usually on the foredeck.

However, I think it is probably the absolute minimum size for most couples
to live aboard full time if it is of normal, post WWII, proportions.

You might want to take a look at the website for my 32 foot Endeavour:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm

These are great and underappreciated boats. Very comfortable, reasonable
turn of speed, driest boat I ever sailed, great handling characteristics if
you like a nimble and quick turning boat. Many boats this maneuvarable have
control problems when over pressed and driven hard but, as long as you keep
the speed up, the E32 will nearly always do what you need her to do. The
construction is an odd mix, lots of wood and nice visual detail but clearly
built for low cost in a yard were the crew was kept happy with unlimited
ganja. Construction is crude and heavy but solid with no core in critical
places to require expensive and difficult replacement 3 decades later. The
interior and cockpit are very intelligently laid out.

I bought mine when I was looking for a cheap boat and thought it would be
used primarily for daysailing and weekends. I then discovered a greatly
renewed interest in sailing and cruising and discovered that I had gotten a
great boat.

You could do worse than picking up one of these put plan on putting about
1.5 times the purchase price into it. If you are downgrading from the
trawler you describe, you can probably buy a higher quality and more
expensive boat but money in the bank is freedom. I like the E32's
characteristics so much that there are few 32 - 34 foot boats I would trade
her for just to get higher quality and better reputation.

--
Roger Long

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:56:04 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

The
construction is an odd mix, lots of wood and nice visual detail but clearly
built for low cost in a yard were the crew was kept happy with unlimited
ganja.

Still finding them butts, eh?

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote

Still finding them butts, eh?

No, they must have vacuumed pretty well

It's the almost total lack of any true 90 degree angles in the otherwise
nicely fitted cabin joinerwork and stuff like that. I took off some of the
deck liners which are a Naugahide like fabric stabled over plywood. The
staples on the pack side were about 1/8" apart. You could just see how some
poor soul got a job away from the resin fumes and was going to make it last
a long as possible. The staples go alonglike that for a couple of panels at
this improbable spacing and you can see where the supervisor came in and
screamed at him because they suddenly start running at about 1 1/2 inch
intervals.

I've gotten used to the lack of symmetry and funny angles. It gives the
boat a homey "built by Hobbits" character. It's still the nicest interior
I've seen in a glass boat in that price range.

--
Roger Long

On 2008-06-24 15:48:14 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

"Vic Smith" wrote

Still finding them butts, eh?

No, they must have vacuumed pretty well

It's the almost total lack of any true 90 degree angles in the
otherwise nicely fitted cabin joinerwork and stuff like that.

Oh gawd, there ain't more than a dozen 90-degree angles on Xan. Should
have seen me measure and remeasure both sides of the bulkheads I was
replacing. I couldn't believe the hull could flare that much in 3/4".

I believe most of the non-90 is because they needed to have the flair
to get the molded parts out of the molds. I don't believe any of the
vertical panels other than the main bulkhead are actually square to the
sole, though the difference is subtle.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 2008-06-24 12:56:04 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

If you are downgrading from the trawler you describe, you can probably
buy a higher quality and more expensive boat but money in the bank is
freedom.

Yup! A small boat and a bag of cash will beat one tied to the bank every time.

I like the E32's characteristics so much that there are few 32 - 34
foot boats I would trade her for just to get higher quality and better
reputation.

Similar for us, except that exactly one 34' boat that we've boarded had
improved livability, but it's quality sucked. Other than that, the
boats that were a significant upgrade were at least 37', and
significant money.

We have preferred to accumulate the cash instead of being tied to the bankers.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Jun 24, 6:17*am, Tim Shavinsky wrote:
...
Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed *means to go
cruising: ...

It would help to define the problem better. Are you planning to day
hop down to Ecuador and then moor the boat until you run aground on
your discarded mutton bones or what? What kind of living are you
happy with? Would you agree with Capt'n Nat that the only time a man
needs to stand up in his boat is when he puts his pants on or do you
need room below for a little tai chi? Right now all I can really
figure is that you are feeling poor (welcome to the club) and that you
like the water (don't we all). With only that as a starting point I
bet most folks will say "the 'wisest' choice is a boat like mine".
That can be amusing, particularly as some people will editorialize
extravagantly, but isn't likely to get answers really focused on your
particular needs.

-- Tom.

"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My response:

1. I did not count opportunity cost twice.

2. Opportunity cost is explained he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

More lame attempts at politically correct, liberal, thought police, mind
control. Turns out opportunity cost is just another term created to confuse
the issue which issue is the simple, old fashioned term - investment
analysis. The first thing you need to do if ever you wish to become a
successful cruiser who earns money instead of ****es away money is to learn
to recognize liberal thought control speech. Then when you learn that you
can refuse to use such language to brainwash yourself. Don't do the work of
the 1984 fascist crowd for them. Stand on your own two hind legs and learn
how to think like and be a man or you will never become a man - just some
herky jerky automaton.

3. It is foolish to ignore opportunity cost.

It is even more foolish to use that term. Stop it please!


4. I have some sailing experience so that is helpful.

Excellent! That is more than some here, such as Capt. JG can realistically
claim.

It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way
to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying
an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I
will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger
boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to
convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.

A man does not *convince* the wife. A man instructs his wife. He tells her
how things are going to be. If she doesn't like it she can find another man.
It's that simple. That's the first thing. The next thing is NEVER buy a
sailboat because the wife happens to like the way it looks inside. Never was
a woman born who understands sailboat accommodations. A woman must be forced
to adapt to the vessel and not vice versa. This doesn't mean the vessel has
to be spartan but it must be practical for sailing and this practicality
dictates, to a great extent, layout. Forget about large skating rink
varnished teak and holly soles. Forget about two or three heads with shower
stalls and hot water on tap. Forget about three burner ranges with oven.
Forget about hair dryers, large clothes closets and all that crap females
think is essential.

Go with a good, basic, blue water vessel such as an Allied Seawind 32. You
can hardly do better than that. Small enough to single-hand but large and
capable enough to circumnavigate.

Mooring and/or anchoring is the only way to go. Find yourself a nice quiet
home port and put down a mooring and make this your base from which to range
freely. It's always nice to come home to your own secure mooring after an
extensive world cruise or even shorter trips to where ever.

Solar panels should
supply all my energy needs.

Good man. You can purchase about a 400 watt solar array and you will have
all your energy requirements fulfilled. Even enough for a small
refrigerator.


Since I have the time I can do most of
the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it
drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because
of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some
friendly country south of the border.

Insure the hell out of that trawler then torch it some night when you are
'out of town'. Use the settlement to buy a quality named sailboat of 30-33
feet. Don't buy anything bigger as it becomes too much of a chore to afford
and/or handle.


I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger
than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an
economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently
in the first place.

Yes, that's me alright. I have never been fooled by economic brainwashing.
People used to say I needed insurance. But I noticed some of the most
expensive downtown skyscrapers belonged to insurance companies. They said
you should borrow in order to buy but I couldn't help noticing the large
number of huge, prosperous banks downtown. Many said I needed an expensive
automobile but I couldn't help noticing how huge and prosperous most car
dealerships and the auto industry had become.

In other words all it takes is to open one's eyes and to understand upon
which side of one's bread the butter is on. These so-called necessary things
for me to have were an obvious rip off or the buildings and fortunes
wouldn't have been apparent enough for even a retard to see.

Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go
cruising:

a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition.

With a quality name! Avoid the Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, Ericsons,
Morgans, Pearsons, Irwins, Islanders, Tartans, C &Cs, Soverels and that
other cheap mass produced garbage. Look instead to yachts with respectable
names such as Pacific Seacraft, Allied, Hinterhoeller, Cape Dory, Bayfield,
Bristol, Baba, Sparkman and Stephens, Cabo Rico (look at some CR 34s - you
can't do much better than that for quality and resale)

b. Live aboard on a mooring.

Definitely. And don't fall into the trap of an inflatable dinghy as a ship's
tender. Get a quality hard GRP dinghy such as a Fatty Knees instead. Row it!
Forget about the outboard engine for it is a pain in the butt and will get
stolen real fast in many cruising grounds.


c. Buy a sailboat.

d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself.

e. Rely on solar power.

Yes, yes!

Forget the watermaker. Too expensive initially and the upkeep, cleaning and
gasket, o-ring and filter expense is prohibitive. Plan to use very little
fresh water and haul it to your boat in plastic, five-gallon jerry cans.

Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen
the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet.
What boats would you guys recommend that I look at?

You can't go wrong in the 27-foot range with a Coronado 27, a Dana (Pacific
Seacraft) 24 (really a 27) or a Cape Dory or Bristol 27. Island Packet
27-32s hold their value well but I don't think they are that well built to
justify the high purchase price. Oh, don't even consider any multi-hull.
They are way overpriced and dangerous as they capsize if you just happen to
sneeze into the mainsail too hard.

It would be me and
my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a
solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer
a diesel inboard auxiliary.

A small Yanmar diesel two cylinder is acceptable. Make sure it has a
compression relief and can be hand cranked in case the batteries go dead.
Install a high-output alternator. But use it sparingly and make sure the
propeller is sized and pitched to properly match the torque and rpm's.
Two-bladed only as three bladed props cause so much drag that they can add
days to a voyage.

Also what is the downside to living on a
mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this
in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type
of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean.

There are no downsides to living on a mooring other than the idiot who drops
a small aluminum anchor right upwind and immediately proceeds to drag down
on your vessel. You need to plan to be around most of the time, especially
on week-ends when most of the idiots come out of the woodwork so you can run
their arses off when they endanger your vessel with their stupidity and rude
lubberliness.

Finding suitable mooring sites is becoming more and mored difficult in this
over crowded and over regulated world. But you can still find them. You just
have to cruise around and ask around. Keep your eyes open. If you find a
good spot make sure you keep your distance as far away as possible from any
boats already moored there. Don't dare run a generator of any sort and don't
run your diesel unless you are downwind of everybody. Respect the rights of
those who arrived before you did.


Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group.

You are welcome. It's nice to be able to impart some of my vast knowledge
about cruising and living aboard to any interested party.

Wilbur Hubbard

On 2008-06-24 17:25:07 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

A man does not *convince* the wife. A man instructs his wife.

Wilbur, will you get it in your head that some don't WANT to single-hand?

And getting rid of a wife and/or maintaining her separately will
DEFINITELY destroy his finances.

Other than that, a good post with mostly good, solid points.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/