It doesn't cost, it pays! See my erudite comments interspersed within your
text below.


"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
Cruising is driving me to the poor house.

I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about
$6,000.

If you owned a well-found, blue water sailboat with small four-stroke
outboard engine, fuel, even at today's confiscatory prices, for a year's
cruising might cost all of 50 bucks.

The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year.

Anybody who keeps their boat at a dock paying absurd by-the-foot prices is
an imbecile. Find a place where your can moor your boat and put down your
own mooring. You suddenly have eliminated a major expense and you will not
be storing your yacht among the floating trailer park trash crowd that
snoops and steals anything not welded down.

Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year.

Forget the insurance. It is not needed and is a bet against yourself. Think
of it this way. If the insurance company is willing to bet that you will not
have claims exceeding what you have paid them then shouldn't you be willing
to have the same faith in your abilities to avoid claims? Maintenance is
another story. There will always be maintenance but you should be handy
enough to do all the labor yourself so you will only be paying for parts and
materials. This shouldn't amount to a great deal of money and, done right
with quality, will increase the value of your yacht.

Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year.

Stupid to buy any boat that depreciates. The worst thing you can do is
purchase a new boat because you take a huge hit the first five years or so.
Buy used and buy quality. Maintain your boat to Bristol standards and it
will appreciate. Forget about trawlers. They are just slow stinkpots. Get a
sailboat instead.

Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year.

What the hell is opportunity cost? Are you talking about loan interest. If
so you are again stupid. NEVER buy something unless you can pay cash for it.
Never pay more than you can afford to take a hit on re the interest
investment hit you might take on your assets. Your very first priority
should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU
interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . . .

The thing is costing me $32,000 a year!

You and a lot of other stupid, brainwashed Americans are in the same boat.
You never learned how to manage your money. You have fallen prey to the
consume at all cost liberal mindset. You have made yourself a willing slave
to institutions. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

If you were like me you would have bought a quality blue water sailing yacht
like I did way back in 1985. You would have paid cash for it. You would
never have spent one thin dime on dockage, mooring, insurance, yard labor,
etc. Do it right and your boat MAKES you a ton of money. Let's round off the
years I've owned my yacht to an even 20. Then consider the fact that I've
lived aboard for the whole of that period of time and cruised thousands of
miles under sail using almost no fuel. I've bought a couple sets of sails to
replace worn out ones but that cost is negligible - less than two grand.
Then there's bottom paint, etc but that can also be done on the cheap by
careening in an area that has sufficient tides.

So take 20 years times 10,000 for that is the cost in dollars per year it
takes to rent or buy a house and you come up with 200,000. So my fine yacht
has allowed me to invest 200,000 dollars over the years besides being the
ultimate freedom machine. Also, don't buy an automobile, you won't need one
cruising anyway that will save you 100,000 dollars over 20 years. That's
300,000 dollars. Dockage fees save = 100,000. Total of 400,000 Invest that
sum intelligently and over a 20 year period you will be worth over 1.5
million dollars. Simple rules, simple goals and you will be simply rich. Do
a couple cocaine runs to Colombia and some Cuban cigar smuggling and some
Cuban immigrant smuggling and add another million. Suddenly you're worth
about three million dollars. And you're free of any debts and obligations
and taxes and undue government interference.

If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting
checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each
year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be
100K in the hole.

You have an inkling of what it takes to be financially responsible. Now,
you've got to act to start the money rolling in instead of going out. But,
you can't be some little wimp who has to have air conditioning, washer
dryers, refrigerator/freezers, cable TV and all that other crap that just
makes you a slave to what you own and keeps you stuck in one place working
for the man and paying taxes out your rear end. Stop being a brainwashed
liberal and stop supporting a liberal government that brainwashes you into
living to pay for a giant bureaucracy. Grow some gonads and simplify and
live the good life. Independent, uncomplicated, healthy, stress free and
pollution free. Lose the diesel mentality because the fumes alone will
slowly kill you even if the cost of it doesn't.


On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going
up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my
retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am
seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does
anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same
mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it
with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Nope. The only real solution is get rid of large fuel hog motors. They will
drive you into the poor house as fuel will be 10-15 dollars a gallon within
the next three or four years. Plan on living like a slave paying 60-70
percent of your wages on big government Democrat welfare plans such as
socialized medicine and increased welfare and all this carbon credit tax
nonsense. Vote for Barack Obama and really become a slave. You think you
have financial problems now just wait until Obama drives the economy into
the crapper so the Great Depression looks like a cake walk. But, if you're
like me it won't bother you one bit. As a matter of fact I have placed
myself in a position to sail away to some place where I can spend all my
millions that are secure in offshore banks without one dime going to big
government give-away programs. You should think about doing the same.


Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur has about answered most all your questions.

with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Wilbur missed addressing the question of American-friendly countries.
Take a look at:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/524/glob...rs-and-leaders

You get to take your pick of the remaining America-friendly countries.
The leaders of the pack include such great cruising destinations as:
Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, India ...

Pew's more recent research suggests that America-friendliness is up in
Nigeria and India. And fuel is right cheap in Nigeria. So there you
go!

Cheers

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:16:39 -0700 (PDT), Bil
wrote:

Wilbur has about answered most all your questions.

with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Wilbur missed addressing the question of American-friendly countries.
Take a look at:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/524/glob...rs-and-leaders

You get to take your pick of the remaining America-friendly countries.
The leaders of the pack include such great cruising destinations as:
Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, India ...

Pew's more recent research suggests that America-friendliness is up in
Nigeria and India. And fuel is right cheap in Nigeria. So there you
go!

Cheers

And so is piracy. It is one of the worst regions for it

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:48:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

If you owned a well-found, blue water sailboat with small four-stroke
outboard engine

That's an oxymoron. There are *no* well-found blue water sailboats
with outboard engines.

On 25 Jun 2008 09:21:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:56:11 -0400, Wayne.B
said:

That's an oxymoron. There are *no* well-found blue water sailboats
with outboard engines.

Neal has a well-known propensity for trying to make a virtue of necessity.

I guess. It is certainly interesting in a weird sort of way watching
him talk to himself in these contrived discussions. Knowing better of
course, I could still not let the "blue water outboard" pass without
comment.

Having a nice little 4 stroke Honda of my own for the dinghy, and a
couple of 6 gallon tanks, I know something of the fuel range of such
animals. Figure about 1 gph if you are lucky, at maybe 6 knots on a
small light sailboat, times 12 gallons for typical tankage, I get a
fuel range of 72 miles. Just the ticket for a nice blue water
crossing to Bermuda, the Exuma Out Islands, the BVI, etc. Let's hope
for favorable winds and lots of time for the crossings.

What nonsense.

Even with proper diesel inboard aux, most of the serious cruising
sailboats that we see are carrying 40 to 60 gallons of extra fuel on
deck. These are boats that actually go someplace of course.

"Wayne.B" wrote

Knowing better of course, I could still not let the "blue water outboard"
pass without comment.


Nor should the idea of a "blue water" Coronado 27 pass without comment,
welcome though the unintended humor may be in these unnerving times.

People have certainly made blue water voyages, even circumnavigations, in
less but my E 32 is twice the boat and I would not consider her a "blue
water cruiser", despite windvane and extended tankage. That doesn't mean I
wouldn't undertake a passage to Bermuda or a transatlantic in the safest
part of the year but I wouldn't push my luck by making a habit of it.

A "blue water" cruiser is one designed, built, and outfitted primarily for
passages and long cruises. More importantly, it is one that actually does
these things.

--
Roger Long

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:26:50 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote

Knowing better of course, I could still not let the "blue water outboard"
pass without comment.


Nor should the idea of a "blue water" Coronado 27 pass without comment,
welcome though the unintended humor may be in these unnerving times.

People have certainly made blue water voyages, even circumnavigations, in
less but my E 32 is twice the boat and I would not consider her a "blue
water cruiser", despite windvane and extended tankage. That doesn't mean I
wouldn't undertake a passage to Bermuda or a transatlantic in the safest
part of the year but I wouldn't push my luck by making a habit of it.

A "blue water" cruiser is one designed, built, and outfitted primarily for
passages and long cruises. More importantly, it is one that actually does
these things.

Roger,
That definition of a "Blue water Cruiser" is dependent upon an
individual's viewpoint. I have met many boats that would not meet your
criteria including several barebones Wharram cats that I would
consider grossly inadequate for my own needs. However, to their long
time owners and crusiers they are considered ideal for crossing
oceans. Quite a lot of what are advertised in boating magazines as
"blue water cruisers" are not, regardless of their size and how many
people have bought them to go "blue water cruising" Jenneaus, Oceans
and Benetaus are only a few of them. They are certainly not made for
out of sight of land crusing though doubtless some are taken there.

Each owner has a different set of criteria. Your friend Wilbur for
example, extols the virtues of a simple wooden bucket. The texbooks
say that twin or bilge keel boats are not good cruisers. The cruiser
who has one would extol the virtues of shallow draft and being able to
anchor close in and dry out level.

Provided the vessel is sound and seaworthy and the sailor has
knowledge of his boat and its behaviour in all sea conditions, the
main component of a "blue water cruiser" is the sailor him/herself.

Neither Bligh nor Shackleton captained the ideal "blue water cruiser'
though I dare say they would have prefered one such.

Peter

"Herodotus" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:26:50 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote

Knowing better of course, I could still not let the "blue water
outboard"
pass without comment.


Nor should the idea of a "blue water" Coronado 27 pass without comment,
welcome though the unintended humor may be in these unnerving times.

People have certainly made blue water voyages, even circumnavigations, in
less but my E 32 is twice the boat and I would not consider her a "blue
water cruiser", despite windvane and extended tankage. That doesn't mean
I
wouldn't undertake a passage to Bermuda or a transatlantic in the safest
part of the year but I wouldn't push my luck by making a habit of it.

A "blue water" cruiser is one designed, built, and outfitted primarily for
passages and long cruises. More importantly, it is one that actually does
these things.

Roger,
That definition of a "Blue water Cruiser" is dependent upon an
individual's viewpoint. I have met many boats that would not meet your
criteria including several barebones Wharram cats that I would
consider grossly inadequate for my own needs. However, to their long
time owners and crusiers they are considered ideal for crossing
oceans. Quite a lot of what are advertised in boating magazines as
"blue water cruisers" are not, regardless of their size and how many
people have bought them to go "blue water cruising" Jenneaus, Oceans
and Benetaus are only a few of them. They are certainly not made for
out of sight of land crusing though doubtless some are taken there.

Each owner has a different set of criteria. Your friend Wilbur for
example, extols the virtues of a simple wooden bucket. The texbooks
say that twin or bilge keel boats are not good cruisers. The cruiser
who has one would extol the virtues of shallow draft and being able to
anchor close in and dry out level.

Provided the vessel is sound and seaworthy and the sailor has
knowledge of his boat and its behaviour in all sea conditions, the
main component of a "blue water cruiser" is the sailor him/herself.

Neither Bligh nor Shackleton captained the ideal "blue water cruiser'
though I dare say they would have prefered one such.

Peter


Well said. The boat and the crew work as a team. Even the best of boats
skippered by an inept crew hardly stands a chance of making a successful
blue water voyage. On the other hand, even a marginal boat, well-fitted out
and modified to eliminate potential weaknesses and crewed by an experienced
expert such as myself who knows the boat inside and out and can and does
handle all the maintenance has a near 100% chance of a successful ocean
voyage.

Capt. Neal's blue water Coronado 27 did not start life as a blue water
designed vessel. She was sold as a coastal cruiser. This designation was
more due to the limits of tankage, storage, interior layout etc. than her
ability to withstand the rigors of ocean voyaging. The good captain went to
work to shore up the few weaknesses the Coronado 27 was produced with. He
re-designed the interior to make it more practical for voyaging. He has
installed 1/4" Lexan on the inside of the deadlights in lieu of outside
storm boards. He added flotation foam between the liner and the hull where
there were voids. He poured a block of flotation foam just forward of the
transom to seal and support the rudder post tube. He claims his blue water
Coronado has positive flotation and will not sink but settle on an even keel
to about the rubbing strake if seriously holed. But, even the eventuality of
being seriously holed is greatly lessened by virtue of the flotation foam
poured into all the voids.

He has replaced all the standing rigging and terminals are all Sta-Loks.
Running rigging is kept in tip-top shape. The boom has been internally
reinforced. Sails are plentiful and new and hanked-on in the fore triangle.
He even ships storm try and storm jib. His philosophy has always been,
"first she's a sailboat" and everything he has done to modify her and
improve her weaknesses was done with this in mind. He claims he is safer in
his blue water Coronado than in any other boat except for an Etap of similar
size due the Etap also having positive foam flotation built in. The good
captain has always claimed it's just plain stupid to go to sea in a boat
that is sinkable when holed (like the erstwhile "Red Cloud") when unsinkable
vessels are being mass produced or when you can modify your existing vessel
to also be unsinkable due to a hole or holes in the hull. The old gentleman
is entirely correct.

The world famous Master Mariner himself told me that a small
outboard-powered sailboat is the only way to go and I believe him. It makes
sense. Small, light, fuel efficient engine, economical to purchase, maintain
and operate. Easy to remove and stow when crossing oceans. After all, an
auxiliary is supposed to be just that. Anybody who goes around with a huge,
heavy, built in diesel and a 100 gallon tank so he can attempt to motor
across oceans is an idiot and no sailor. He should have bought a long range
trawler like the former sailor Doug King.

One of the virtues of a 27-footer is she is handy and easily driven. Even a
two knot wind is enough to sail her just about anywhere and she can be
anchored under sail and gotten underway under sail. The only rationale for
even an outboard is maneuvering in close quarter situations where there is
no wind or less wind than current. In all other cases, learn to sail but
that takes a handy small vessel in order for a single-hander to be entirely
successful.

It is a well-known fact that inboard diesels get you into trouble more than
they get you out of trouble. That's a fact of life and you'd best accept it.
Even if you didn't have to live with the smell of the beast which permeates
every diesel boat I've ever stepped aboard it would still be folly to
embrace them like today's so-called sailor has. They make you lazy, they
turn you into a motorhead moron. They harm your health. Breathing the
exhaust is carcinogenic.

So, to sum up, Captain Neal's Coronado is, indeed, a blue water voyager for
two clear reasons.

1) She has completed many a blue water voyage and weathered severe storms
and has never been compromised or beaten back.

2) She has a qualified, experienced, intelligent, handsome captain who knows
her inside and out and has fitted her out for blue water voyaging.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Jun 26, 10:43*am, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Nealburs Fantasy snipped

Nealbur are you ever going to stop reving your tiny little outboard
and put it into gear?

Fred


- Show quoted text -

On 2008-06-25 23:24:41 -0400, Wayne.B said:

Even with proper diesel inboard aux, most of the serious cruising
sailboats that we see are carrying 40 to 60 gallons of extra fuel on
deck. These are boats that actually go someplace of course.

OMG! That'd give Xan a conservative 1,400-2,000 mile range under power!

The idea of 3-500# of fuel up on deck, though.... I'm always surprised
that they don't just add tankage. Doubt there's a boat over about 25'
that doesn't have some out of the way place to stick another tank, and
it doesn't take much to add 40 gallons.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/