Jere Lull wrote:


If you drop the opportunity cost (already gone)

Its gone? Not if you can sell the boat and invest the proceeds

and depreciation, your
actual numbers are in better shape.

Yes, ignoring reality makes everything look better.

Or, one can get a boat that is essentially worthless, like Neal.


Lose the dock (and house?) and anchor out

like Neal

and you're down to fuel, insurance and maintenance.

why stop there, Neal wouldn't have insurance


Slow it down a knot or so, and you'll likely boost fuel economy.

Slow your life down to cruising speed and you'll likely live longer,
cheaper.

So Neal is going to outlive us all???

....
Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year.

Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year.

Think of it this way: It's a bear market and interest rates are low.
It would have been the easiest thing in the world to have sold the
boat last year and bought an investment house or the S&P 500 or GE or
most anything else and lost your money or lost more than your money if
you leveraged things with a mortgage. You've got the opportunity to
go boating. Some folks have the opportunity to find out if their Bear
Stearns stock will look nice on the living room wall. Opportunity
isn't money in the bank. So, credit yourself $18k for staying out of
a loosing market, put the boat on a mooring and drive a little
slower. Shoots, now it's cheap therapy.

-- Tom.

It doesn't cost, it pays! See my erudite comments interspersed within your
text below.


"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
Cruising is driving me to the poor house.

I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about
$6,000.

If you owned a well-found, blue water sailboat with small four-stroke
outboard engine, fuel, even at today's confiscatory prices, for a year's
cruising might cost all of 50 bucks.

The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year.

Anybody who keeps their boat at a dock paying absurd by-the-foot prices is
an imbecile. Find a place where your can moor your boat and put down your
own mooring. You suddenly have eliminated a major expense and you will not
be storing your yacht among the floating trailer park trash crowd that
snoops and steals anything not welded down.

Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year.

Forget the insurance. It is not needed and is a bet against yourself. Think
of it this way. If the insurance company is willing to bet that you will not
have claims exceeding what you have paid them then shouldn't you be willing
to have the same faith in your abilities to avoid claims? Maintenance is
another story. There will always be maintenance but you should be handy
enough to do all the labor yourself so you will only be paying for parts and
materials. This shouldn't amount to a great deal of money and, done right
with quality, will increase the value of your yacht.

Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year.

Stupid to buy any boat that depreciates. The worst thing you can do is
purchase a new boat because you take a huge hit the first five years or so.
Buy used and buy quality. Maintain your boat to Bristol standards and it
will appreciate. Forget about trawlers. They are just slow stinkpots. Get a
sailboat instead.

Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year.

What the hell is opportunity cost? Are you talking about loan interest. If
so you are again stupid. NEVER buy something unless you can pay cash for it.
Never pay more than you can afford to take a hit on re the interest
investment hit you might take on your assets. Your very first priority
should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU
interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . . .

The thing is costing me $32,000 a year!

You and a lot of other stupid, brainwashed Americans are in the same boat.
You never learned how to manage your money. You have fallen prey to the
consume at all cost liberal mindset. You have made yourself a willing slave
to institutions. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

If you were like me you would have bought a quality blue water sailing yacht
like I did way back in 1985. You would have paid cash for it. You would
never have spent one thin dime on dockage, mooring, insurance, yard labor,
etc. Do it right and your boat MAKES you a ton of money. Let's round off the
years I've owned my yacht to an even 20. Then consider the fact that I've
lived aboard for the whole of that period of time and cruised thousands of
miles under sail using almost no fuel. I've bought a couple sets of sails to
replace worn out ones but that cost is negligible - less than two grand.
Then there's bottom paint, etc but that can also be done on the cheap by
careening in an area that has sufficient tides.

So take 20 years times 10,000 for that is the cost in dollars per year it
takes to rent or buy a house and you come up with 200,000. So my fine yacht
has allowed me to invest 200,000 dollars over the years besides being the
ultimate freedom machine. Also, don't buy an automobile, you won't need one
cruising anyway that will save you 100,000 dollars over 20 years. That's
300,000 dollars. Dockage fees save = 100,000. Total of 400,000 Invest that
sum intelligently and over a 20 year period you will be worth over 1.5
million dollars. Simple rules, simple goals and you will be simply rich. Do
a couple cocaine runs to Colombia and some Cuban cigar smuggling and some
Cuban immigrant smuggling and add another million. Suddenly you're worth
about three million dollars. And you're free of any debts and obligations
and taxes and undue government interference.

If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting
checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each
year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be
100K in the hole.

You have an inkling of what it takes to be financially responsible. Now,
you've got to act to start the money rolling in instead of going out. But,
you can't be some little wimp who has to have air conditioning, washer
dryers, refrigerator/freezers, cable TV and all that other crap that just
makes you a slave to what you own and keeps you stuck in one place working
for the man and paying taxes out your rear end. Stop being a brainwashed
liberal and stop supporting a liberal government that brainwashes you into
living to pay for a giant bureaucracy. Grow some gonads and simplify and
live the good life. Independent, uncomplicated, healthy, stress free and
pollution free. Lose the diesel mentality because the fumes alone will
slowly kill you even if the cost of it doesn't.


On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going
up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my
retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am
seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does
anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same
mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it
with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Nope. The only real solution is get rid of large fuel hog motors. They will
drive you into the poor house as fuel will be 10-15 dollars a gallon within
the next three or four years. Plan on living like a slave paying 60-70
percent of your wages on big government Democrat welfare plans such as
socialized medicine and increased welfare and all this carbon credit tax
nonsense. Vote for Barack Obama and really become a slave. You think you
have financial problems now just wait until Obama drives the economy into
the crapper so the Great Depression looks like a cake walk. But, if you're
like me it won't bother you one bit. As a matter of fact I have placed
myself in a position to sail away to some place where I can spend all my
millions that are secure in offshore banks without one dime going to big
government give-away programs. You should think about doing the same.


Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur has about answered most all your questions.

with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Wilbur missed addressing the question of American-friendly countries.
Take a look at:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/524/glob...rs-and-leaders

You get to take your pick of the remaining America-friendly countries.
The leaders of the pack include such great cruising destinations as:
Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Ghana, Mali, Nigeria, India ...

Pew's more recent research suggests that America-friendliness is up in
Nigeria and India. And fuel is right cheap in Nigeria. So there you
go!

Cheers

I'd like to thank everyone for their inputs. My response:

1. I did not count opportunity cost twice.

2. Opportunity cost is explained he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

3. It is foolish to ignore opportunity cost.

4. I have some sailing experience so that is helpful.


It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way
to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying
an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I
will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger
boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to
convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.Solar panels should
supply all my energy needs. Since I have the time I can do most of
the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it
drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because
of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some
friendly country south of the border.

I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger
than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an
economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently
in the first place.

Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go
cruising:

a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition.

b. Live aboard on a mooring.

c. Buy a sailboat.

d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself.

e. Rely on solar power.

f. Watermaker?????




Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen
the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet.
What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and
my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a
solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer
a diesel inboard auxiliary. Also what is the downside to living on a
mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this
in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type
of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean.

Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group.

Tim Shavinsky

I strongly recommend taking a look at what Wilbur Hubbard has done. He has
minimized the expenses and maximized the enjoyment of world class blue water
cruising. What is most amazing is that he has done this all out of personal
philosophy, rather than economic necessity, decades before the current
economic upheaval. He seems to have the amazing power to see beyond the
years and can extract the essence necessary for a life well lived. He is
also a master mariner, specializing in sailboats, so he can offer sound
advice based upon many years of experience. Few ever find fault with his
sagely words.





"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
Cruising is driving me to the poor house.

I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about
$6,000.

The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year.

Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year.

Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year.

Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year.

The thing is costing me $32,000 a year!

If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting
checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each
year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be
100K in the hole.

On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going
up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my
retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining me, I am
seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does
anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same
mess? I figure I need 25 years of retirement funds and won't make it
with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Tim Shavinsky

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:48:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Your very first priority
should always be staying financially solvent and having people paying YOU
interest on your investments. Neither a lender nor borrower be . .

And just how do you expect to earn interest without lending money?

How about buying bonds? How about buying half a dozen shares of Berkshire
Hathaway"

Wilbur Hubbard

On Jun 24, 8:26*am, "Doug Dapner" wrote:
I strongly recommend taking a look at what Wilbur Hubbard has done. He has
minimized the expenses and maximized the enjoyment of world class blue water
cruising. What is most amazing is that he has done this all out of personal
philosophy, rather than economic necessity, decades before the current
economic upheaval. He seems to have the amazing power to see beyond the
years and can extract the essence necessary for a life well lived. He is
also a master mariner, specializing in sailboats, so he can offer sound
advice based upon many years of experience. Few ever find fault with his
sagely words.

"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message

...



Cruising is driving me to the poor house.

I typically put on 250 hours a years at 4 gph which puts fuel at about
$6,000.

The dockspace is costing me $5,000 a year.

Maintenance, insurance is $3,000 a year.

Depreciation of the trawler is $8,000 a year.

Opportunity cost(@ 5%) is $10,000 a year.

The thing is costing me $32,000 a year!

If I just took the money I paid for it and invested I could getting
checks for $10,000 a year rather than being 30K+ in the hole each
year. In 3 years I could have 30K in cash by foregoing the boat or be
100K in the hole.

On the horizon I only see higher fuel costs and everything else going
up in cost, the boat plummeting in value and no increased return on my
retirement egg. I love the boat but this is really draining *me, I am
seriously considering pulling the plug before things get worse. Does
anyone here have any creative solutions or are we all in the same
mess? I figure I need *25 years of retirement funds and won't make it
with the trawler. Is there an American friendly country with cheap
fuel, good health care and low expenses? Thanks everyone.

Tim Shavinsky- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pretty good troll over all Wilbur/Neal/Doug/Tim but you blew it when
you took your own hook line and sinker.

Try harder Wilbur, this one was patheticly transparent


Fred

Almost... see my comments...

"Tim Shavinsky" wrote in message
...
It looks like downsizing and switching over to a sailboat is the way
to go. To reduce opportunity cost and depreciation I'll look at buying
an older, but solid boat in good condition. To reduce the fuel costs I
will look at buying a sailboat and getting some experience on larger
boats, about 32' in length. I can go to living on a mooring (have to
convince the wife) which will zero the dock fee.Solar panels should
supply all my energy needs. Since I have the time I can do most of
the ordinary repairs myself. I have to get rid of the boat asap as it
drops in value daily. I can't ship my current boat to Europe because
of the expense and continued expense. I was hoping to find some
friendly country south of the border.

I should have done this all in the beginning but my eyes were bigger
than my wallet. I never considered escalating costs, but then only an
economic savant with tremendous discipline would ever act so prudently
in the first place.

Summarizing, the wisest choice for those of limited/fixed means to go
cruising:

a. Buy an older, solid boat in excellent condition.

The type of boat is also important. You're likely going to be spending a
fair amount of time doing short cruises vs. long ones. Most of your time is
spent aboard in a marina vs. actual sailing (80-90%), so comfort is
important when not moving, just as crew comfort is important when moving.
The tradeoff are something like fin vs. full keel, single vs. monohull.


b. Live aboard on a mooring.

I wouldn't recommend this, especially not at first. Get used to the boat.
Nothing will turn off your wife (or perhaps you) faster than having to use
the head in a cramped spot day in and day out, or have to go ashore because
you forgot one little thing, or staying below during rain, etc. Give you and
her time to adjust by keeping it at a dock.

c. Buy a sailboat.

Even though you have some sailing experience, take lessons. Also, sail as
many different boats as you can manage before you buy one. Sail 20 to 30
different kinds. This will give you a much better idea what you really like
and don't like, and it'll help you decide what compromises you're willing to
make.

d. Keep the boat simple and do the repairs yourself.

Yes, but don't hesitate to get help if you need it. Some repairs and
maintenance if done wrong will make your life miserable, all for the sake of
a few more dollars... the old penny wise and pound foolish theory.

e. Rely on solar power.

You won't be able to do this completely. It will help, but isn't a cure-all
for power. You need to carefully assess your power consumption
needs/desires, and act accordingly.

f. Watermaker?????

Expensive, but perhaps worth the cost. Consumes a fair amount of power,
except for a mechanical method, such as the one that was linked to in
another thread (which won't work while stationary I believe). Don't forget
to have ample tankage aboard for fuel, waste, and water.

I believe someone has posted a guide to describe actually living aboard in
this newsgroup... It's funny and accurate. Bascially, you're cramming
yourself into a double-wide closet for months at a time.

Now I have a few more questions about sailboat. From what I've seen
the smallest I would go is about 27 feet, the largest about 32 feet.

Why? I wouldn't go below 30 or 34 and not above whatever you can afford
after you do the money calculation. 27 is incredibly small. I have a 30, and
I wouldn't want to have to live on it for any length of time unless we were
underway. Remember, for every day you're sailing, the boat gets a foot
shorter if more than one person is aboard. LOL

What boats would you guys recommend that I look at? It would be me and
my wife aboard, we have no physical handicaps, I'm 6 ft tall. I want a
solid, reliably built boat that is simple and easy to handle. I prefer
a diesel inboard auxiliary. Also what is the downside to living on a
mooring other than the obvious? Where are the best places to do this
in the US? I would imagine California is not too friendly to this type
of lifestyle plus the sailing is not as nice as the Caribbean.

Impossible to say... there are so many possibilities. Don't discount the
west coast so quickly. There are lots of places that can be reasonable,
especially in the short-term, and there's a lot to see. Of course, the
conditions are a bit more challenging on the northern part of the coast. As
you move south, the winds lighten and the conditions generally mellow. San
Diego/Catalina, for example have excellent sailing, and weather much like
the Carib. Also, Mexico is relatively close... inexpensive, lightly
populated, easy to cruise.

Thanks everyone, you are a knowledgeable and experienced group.

Tim Shavinsky



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

32 feet is a sweet spot in smaller cruising sailboats. It's about the
minimum size in which you can get full headroom without excessive freeboard
and cabin height, odd proportions, or no bilge. The waterline length is
getting long enough for reasonable speed and a rigid dinghy will often fit
on deck somewhere although usually on the foredeck.

However, I think it is probably the absolute minimum size for most couples
to live aboard full time if it is of normal, post WWII, proportions.

You might want to take a look at the website for my 32 foot Endeavour:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm

These are great and underappreciated boats. Very comfortable, reasonable
turn of speed, driest boat I ever sailed, great handling characteristics if
you like a nimble and quick turning boat. Many boats this maneuvarable have
control problems when over pressed and driven hard but, as long as you keep
the speed up, the E32 will nearly always do what you need her to do. The
construction is an odd mix, lots of wood and nice visual detail but clearly
built for low cost in a yard were the crew was kept happy with unlimited
ganja. Construction is crude and heavy but solid with no core in critical
places to require expensive and difficult replacement 3 decades later. The
interior and cockpit are very intelligently laid out.

I bought mine when I was looking for a cheap boat and thought it would be
used primarily for daysailing and weekends. I then discovered a greatly
renewed interest in sailing and cruising and discovered that I had gotten a
great boat.

You could do worse than picking up one of these put plan on putting about
1.5 times the purchase price into it. If you are downgrading from the
trawler you describe, you can probably buy a higher quality and more
expensive boat but money in the bank is freedom. I like the E32's
characteristics so much that there are few 32 - 34 foot boats I would trade
her for just to get higher quality and better reputation.

--
Roger Long