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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
It looks like I'll need new house batteries soon. This set of 6
Trojan T-105 has been function for exactly 5 years now. About 4 years away from the docks. Before we had 2 Surette 8D's - cruised 5 years and lasted 7 years before I replaced them early to go cruising again. So - what's good now? Whatever it is has to fit in the 2 x 8D or 6 x T-105 footprint. Too hard to change that. ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 13, 4:30 pm, wrote:
It looks like I'll need new house batteries soon. ... Whatever it is has to fit in the 2 x 8D or 6 x T-105 footprint. Too hard to change that. I've been very happy with my Lifeline AGMs (2x8D). I've got a couple of buddies who installed Full River AGMs and they like them too and they cost a lot less. There are some other interesting developments out there including the Thin Plate Pure Lead AGMs. But, none of those will be in the running if you're looking to get the best AH/$$. For that I think your T-105s are about as good as it gets. -- Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
http://www.umces.edu/vessel/ I asked the electrical subcontractors what kind of starting and house batteries they intended to put in. They said, "AGM". I said, "For the safety?" They said, "No, for the performance. The safety is just the icing on the cake." This outfit does a lot of marine installation but their core business is mission critical applications such as unattended communications switching stations and hospital backup power. They are Canadian so they do stuff that has to work in very harsh climate conditions. I've been very impressed with their work and knowledge. They made a good case that the wet cell has gone the way of the carburators for car engines. Maybe fun to have if you like to tinker but, if you just want to go somewhere reliably and efficiently, the modern technology is better. -- Roger Long If you go AGM make sure you have a charger that is made for them... otherwise they have a very short life. Also, thanks to Solar energy, be prepared for a huge hike in battery prices compared to the last time you bought them....(especially flooded trojans...) |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 20:25:22 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Be prepared for EVERYTHING to be more expensive than the last time you bought it. After all, everything comes to you in diesel and gas fueled trucks. A big part of the pricing issue is the weak dollar which has lifted the cost of all commodities. The major expense component of batteries is the price of lead. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
"Roger Long" wrote in news:48546dfb$0$12938
: Be prepared for EVERYTHING to be more expensive than the last time you bought it. After all, everything comes to you in diesel and gas fueled trucks. Took the stepvan to the warehouse, today. Pumped in 29 gallons of filtered vegoil from the French Fried Oil and Refining Company main ballast tankage with the 55 gallon drum hand pump. We just GOTTA get an electric transfer pump to match the filter pump.....It's too hot in that damned warehouse to pump by hand! Another of my consorts was there and we promised each other to drive around a lot this weekend to use up some of the excess....again. I got 13 more 5 gallon boxes of used oil on Friday from the Chinese guys. This batch I'm running now is going to smell a little. My hands smelled like fish oil after I pumped it. Fish is the only smell I can detect, intermittently, in the exhaust, which is really clean. Screw OPEC and Big Oil....we got fuel running out our EARS if we're not too lazy to just go get it! |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:32:18 +0000, Larry wrote:
Screw OPEC and Big Oil....we got fuel running out our EARS if we're not too lazy to just go get it! I'll be ready for another 7 or 800 gallons in a few weeks if you're still having a storage problem. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
No, that's gel cell's that need the special charger. I've been using a standard charger and alternator with mine going on three seasons and they seem as good as new. Correct.... that is what I get for jumping on the news groups during happy hour!!! I still have a bad taste in my mouth for smoking 2 gels many years ago.... |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:32:18 +0000, Larry wrote:
Took the stepvan to the warehouse, today. Pumped in 29 gallons of filtered vegoil from the French Fried Oil and Refining Company main ballast tankage with the 55 gallon drum hand pump. We just GOTTA get an electric transfer pump to match the filter pump.....It's too hot in that damned warehouse to pump by hand! Another of my consorts was there and we promised each other to drive around a lot this weekend to use up some of the excess....again. I got 13 more 5 gallon boxes of used oil on Friday from the Chinese guys. This batch I'm running now is going to smell a little. My hands smelled like fish oil after I pumped it. Fish is the only smell I can detect, intermittently, in the exhaust, which is really clean. I was walking down Main Street, and it hit me: the aroma of old time Castrol R Castrol racing oil, aka castor oil. I used to put it in an MGA just for the gorgeous smell. I wonder if, could it be? that reclaimed oil makes the same nose? If so, count me in! Brian W |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
Roger Long wrote:
If you want to charge your batteries faster and harder than they should be charged, are willing to put up with crawling around on top of them sucking acid out of them with a hydrometer and putting distilled water back in to them to repair the damage you have done to them, and are willing to accept the small but quite real danger of having carrying free acid around in your boat, wet cells will give you more bang for the buck and faster charging. If you can live with charging at reasonable charging rates, you'll have a safer boat and get better performance with AGM's. Remember, the outfit that made such a strong recommendation to me about AGM's builds many unattended mission critical systems. That's a good description of how I would like my battery bank to be. There are a lot of mechanical things I like fiddling with on a boat but batteries are not one of them. You are not correctly stating the case by using the phrases 'faster and harder than they should be charged' and 'reasonable charging rates'. But it all depends on your use. If you use a main engine or a generator to charge then I think AGM or gel are out of the question. Unattended operation may require specific requirements. But these are not requirements for boat use. As you say, there are many mechanical (and other) things on a boat to fiddle with, and I don't understand the logic that batteries should not be one of them. You mention using a hydrometer, the only way to find the real state of charge for a lead-acid battery. What is the alternative procedure for AGM? There is none: there simply is no way to find the real state of charge of an AGM! I would say that simply rules them out for anything mission-cricial. Yes it may not be fun but batteries SHOULD be one of the things to 'fiddle' with, IMHO. If you read the article then you will also have read that if you are willing to use 'reasonable charging rates' (=slow charging), standard lead-acid is 'maintenance free' just like AGM and gel. But AGM and gel are much more expensive. You definitely seem to be wrong when you say that AGM will give you better performance - even when using 'reasonable' charging rates. From what I read they will NEVER do that and will most likely fare a lot worse than standard lead-acid, for ANY application. So to quote the article, AGM is good if you want to put your boat upside down for an hour or two. In all other cases, use standard lead-acid. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:22:35 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: If you can live with charging at reasonable charging rates, you'll have a safer boat and get better performance with AGM's. What do you consider reasonable. One guy says 15% of capacity per hour. If you run them for three hours that leaves time to charge them at the twenty hour rate. One inland lake cocktail cruise per day. Two of the biggest trolling motors made draw how much juice? Casady |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 15, 9:46 am, Salomon Fringe wrote:
...If you use a main engine or a generator to charge then I think AGM or gel are out of the question. And you believe this because...? I and many others have gotten many years of outstanding service from AGMs used in exactly this way. I've got nothing against regular old flooded batteries. They're certainly the best in terms of capacity per monetary unit or capacity per weight for lead acid. But the article you're quoting is being wildly, even absurdly unfair in its comparison of the types of lead acid batteries. He gives AGMs a particularly bad rap by asserting that they are essentially the same thing as a "maintenance free" starting battery. His argument seems to be "well, they've got thin plates and you can't add water to them so they must outgas like mad if you charge them fast and the plates must fail quickly because they are thin." Of course, if that were true AGMs would die quickly in normal use. Yet, I and many other folks, have AGMs that have lasted for 8+ years despite being deep cycled and charged at significantly faster rates than flooded cells. How can that be? The answer is that the author of your article either doesn't know the differences between an AGM and a cheap maintence free starting battery or is being intentionally misleading. As far as I know all AGMs are "valve regulated". Certainly all the major players are. Under normal charging they recombine virtually all gas. While massive overcharging will cause them to vent, modest amounts of over voltage will not hurt them noticeably. Indeed, all of the manufactures that I've looked at recommend periodically equalizing them. Generally you can put all the amps you've go into them as long as you regulate the voltage (max between 14.0 and 14.6 depending on the temperature and the particular battery). Even so regulated their acceptance rates are higher than deep cycle flooded batteries and charge times are quicker. AGMs do have thin plates. But, those plates are packed tightly into the glass mat and physically very well supported. So, they are less prone to physical failure than the thin plates in flooded starting batteries that need to be largely self-supporting. And, at the same time, they have more surface area than flooded deep cell batteries. The net result is that AGMs have very low internal resistance compared to other deep cycle batteries and are more durable. Low resistance also reduces gassing. .... If you read the article then you will also have read that if you are willing to use 'reasonable charging rates' (=slow charging), standard lead-acid is 'maintenance free' just like AGM and gel. But AGM and gel are much more expensive. I've read the article. It is total BS. AGMs are not gels or cheap sealed starting batteries. All his conclusions follow from a false assumption and no evidence for the conclusions is provided. -- Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
Richard Casady wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:22:35 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: If you can live with charging at reasonable charging rates, you'll have a safer boat and get better performance with AGM's. What do you consider reasonable. One guy says 15% of capacity per hour. If you run them for three hours that leaves time to charge them at the twenty hour rate. One inland lake cocktail cruise per day. Two of the biggest trolling motors made draw how much juice? Casady There's really A LOT to say about batteries and charging, especially because everybody has a different charging and usage situation. One excellent document that has just about all info is this one: http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...yUnlimited.pdf |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 15, 12:32 pm, Salomon Fringe wrote:
.... That's interesting. Do you have the actual manufacturers discharge graphs that the author says they -for some reason- don't seem to supply? Just go look them up. There's no secret. I don't know why the author seems to think there is. Indeed, the article you posted in reply to Roger down the thread has some good info on this. Did you read it? In any case, the author of your first link doesn't provide a single test or citation to support his views, so why should we believe him? ... If the AGM manufacturers have nothing to hide then that info will be advertised on their websites. It is. --Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 15, 1:23 pm, Salomon Fringe wrote:
.... Yes I actually have the printed version of that doc, but I don't think there is even a hint of being able to use a AGM for 8+ years while deep-cycling... ? Well, I don't think I said that. What I was trying to say is that the author doesn't seem to have had any trouble coming up with published data. For instance he notes that deep cycle flooded cells ("semi- traction") get 350 cycles at 60% DOD (which is deep cycling) while AGMs get 650-800 depending on construction and chemistry. Service life depends on how you use them but the AGMs look much better than the semi-traction batteries for deep cycle use. His service life numbers suggest that some AGMs will be expected to last 10 years. AGMs have only been popular in marine use for less than a decade so it may be hard to get real numbers. My experience has been fantastic. YMMV... I think some of the very negative responses in the "Dutch magazine" (if they exist, got a citation?) might have been for gel cels. AGMs are not gel cells and linking them is bogus (or maybe even dishonest). AGMs have really good cycling numbers and they are published and you've even posted a link to them. So the Sterling guy's conclusion that you should avoid AGMs because they have "poor cycling numbers" is hard to figure. The rest of his arguments seem to be based on straw men and thin air, too. Who is this guy? Although it's a little off topic http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ is interesting and has some insight into usage issues. .... Err, I was hoping you would have the links handy... ;-) I was hoping you'd do your own. If you can't google I'll do it for you, but last time I looked both Full River and Lifeline (Concord) had graphs and spec sheets on-line for their AGMs. You may have to plot data from your favorite flooded deep cycle battery for comparison but if the flooded guys have nothing to hide their data will be on-line, too... ;-) I'm not trying to sell AGMs. There are good reasons that they don't use them in golf carts, for instance. But the guy at Sterling seems to have decided that he hates AGMs and then gone off to figure out why. --Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: His service life numbers suggest that some AGMs will be expected to last 10 years. AGMs have only been popular in marine use for less than a decade so it may be hard to get real numbers. My experience has been fantastic. I have heard the same from others whom I respect. I will probably convert one of my house banks to AGMs in the future. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: His service life numbers suggest that some AGMs will be expected to last 10 years. AGMs have only been popular in marine use for less than a decade so it may be hard to get real numbers. My experience has been fantastic. I have heard the same from others whom I respect. I will probably convert one of my house banks to AGMs in the future. While I cannot comment on AGM batteries, my experience with gel batteries may be of interest. In 2005 I imported a boat from Florida to Norway. The survey was carried out in mid March and the batteries were Ok and powered up all auxiliaries properly. Three months later she arrived in Norway and the batteries were flat because, as recommended by the makers, the refrigerator was connected directly to the batteries rather than going through the panel and nobody had thought to disconnect it. I tried to charge the batteries with a powerful charger and it could get no current at all to pass through the batteries-they blocked the current completely.. I found that very surprising although I had half expected them to accept, but not retain, a charge. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
wrote:
On Jun 15, 1:23 pm, Salomon Fringe wrote: ... Yes I actually have the printed version of that doc, but I don't think there is even a hint of being able to use a AGM for 8+ years while deep-cycling... ? Well, I don't think I said that. What I was trying to say is that the author doesn't seem to have had any trouble coming up with published data. For instance he notes that deep cycle flooded cells ("semi- traction") get 350 cycles at 60% DOD (which is deep cycling) while AGMs get 650-800 depending on construction and chemistry. Service life depends on how you use them but the AGMs look much better than the semi-traction batteries for deep cycle use. His service life numbers suggest that some AGMs will be expected to last 10 years. AGMs have only been popular in marine use for less than a decade so it may be hard to get real numbers. My experience has been fantastic. YMMV... I think some of the very negative responses in the "Dutch magazine" (if they exist, got a citation?) might have been for gel cels. AGMs are not gel cells and linking them is bogus (or maybe even dishonest). AGMs have really good cycling numbers and they are published and you've even posted a link to them. So the Sterling guy's conclusion that you should avoid AGMs because they have "poor cycling numbers" is hard to figure. The rest of his arguments seem to be based on straw men and thin air, too. Who is this guy? Although it's a little off topic http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ is interesting and has some insight into usage issues. ... Err, I was hoping you would have the links handy... ;-) I was hoping you'd do your own. If you can't google I'll do it for you, but last time I looked both Full River and Lifeline (Concord) had graphs and spec sheets on-line for their AGMs. You may have to plot data from your favorite flooded deep cycle battery for comparison but if the flooded guys have nothing to hide their data will be on-line, too... ;-) I'm not trying to sell AGMs. There are good reasons that they don't use them in golf carts, for instance. But the guy at Sterling seems to have decided that he hates AGMs and then gone off to figure out why. --Tom. Well the author of the Victron article really did a good job and I have used his info extensively but I did realize that Victron sells gel and AGM but nothing else in terms of batteries so I assumed a slight nudge towards their product line in the numbers. Also his pricing info in the comparison was way off from what I found, e.g. full traction was just 50% of the price he stated. The amount of active material in any lead acid battery, be it flooded gel or AGM is what makes the battery survive longer for cycling, and so comparing the most expensive thick-plate AGM with standard flooded cells does not make sense. We should compare AGM and flooded batteries that have equal weight (lead) or, for a different comparison, equal price. I think that in real life, a flooded cell will hugely outperform the AGM for cycling use because you can equalize a flooded cell to refresh weak cells, because you cannot monitor the temperature of each battery (let alone every cell) while charging which means guaranteed overcharging of some batteries/cells - destroying your typical AGM cell. Of course it is cheaper, too. Returning to the Victron article, even with my suspicions about the author towards his own product line, what I distilled from the article was that tubular plate traction batteries are the best deal for serious cycling, not gel or AGM. I did my research two years ago so things may have changed but I don't think the numbers can have changed that much. I would like to know from people who have REALLY deepcycled their AGM's 500 times (anybody counting?) and are still using them. If these exist I believe that you will find they paid as much for their AGMS as they would have for equivalent capacity traction - which would last at least twice as long. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
Brian Whatcott wrote in
: I wonder if, could it be? that reclaimed oil makes the same nose? If so, count me in! Brian W Some people claim they can smell french fries, but I can't. The oil is very clean burning. Whatever liquids are attached to the oil we don't separate them. There's no water in the oil as it all boils off in the deep fat fryers that sit there for hours. We filter down to .5 microns, which will easily flow through the injection nozzles. I've never had a clog from it in the years I've used it that way. The oil, itself, still has that "burned" smell of used deep fat fryer oil. There's a mix of Canola and other vegetable oils in what we get. It doesn't seem to matter from batch to batch where it came from, as long as it will burn at 22:1 compression we're fine. One of the engines we're supplying had 220K miles on it and had an overhaul after about 80K on the oil. Nothing unusual was seen in the engine, to the mechanic's amazement. He'd been reading oil company propaganda saying it would destroy the engine, which is simply not true. Their reason for the lie is fairly obvious. There was no unusual coking, stuck rings, etc. from burning it. It burns very clean and you have to really work hard to get it to smoke on hard acceleration, unlike dino fuel oils. Burning slower, and it does burn much slower, there's much less knocking, which has got to be easier on all the pressure induced stresses on pistons, bearings, rods, crank. There's not as much power so there's not as much stress. My '83 300TD wagon is on 247K miles and still runs fine, except for top gear on the transmission shifting a little soft these days before the worn clutches finally hold solid, but that has to be expected at a quarter million miles...(c; Sure lets you keep your wallet fuller of those faux Fed banknotes we pass off as "money" on the world. .....oh, back on topic....wetcell batteries are best.... |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
"Roger Long" wrote in
: are willing to put up with crawling around on top of them sucking acid out of them with a hydrometer and putting distilled water back in to them to repair the damage you have done to them What??!! Where the hell did THIS come from? They don't manufacture excess acid! Overcharging does NOT produce more acid....only converts water into hydrogen and oxygen. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: His service life numbers suggest that some AGMs will be expected to last 10 years. AGMs have only been popular in marine use for less than a decade so it may be hard to get real numbers. My experience has been fantastic. I have heard the same from others whom I respect. I will probably convert one of my house banks to AGMs in the future. I hope you were also thinking of adding another charger, since if your other bank is not AGM you will need it. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
Roger Long wrote:
This discussion is going the way many do here and in other venues. The perspective makes a huge difference. ... One thing that influences my system driven decision to have AGM's is my less than optimum battery box location. Checking wet cells with my face just a few inches above the batteries after squirming headfirst into the quarter berth and sticking my head in a small hatch from which it would take a while to extract myself holds no appeal, goggles or no goggles. My electrical consumption profile does not require that I be able to recharge at high rates. Thanks for pointing out your situation. Considering that I would also have bought AGM. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:38:14 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: After hearing what my friend went through after his acid shower, I wouldn't put wet cells in my sailboat for anything or any cost savings. What were the circumstances of your friends accident ? |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
Salomon Fringe wrote in
: wrote: Here's a fun little practical application demonstration that Salomon can try for himself: Take a group 31 flooded deep cycle battery of whatever brand you think is the best, and any group 31 AGM battery off the shelf regardless of brand. Attach a 12 volt headlamp to each and let them sit with the headlight burning until it no longer glows at all, indicating the batteries are flat. Now, wait 30 days, and THEN recharge both batteries using whatever method is recommended by the manufacturer. After charging, load test both batteries. You'l find the flooded battery is now a heavy piece of junk, but the AGM performs pretty much as it did before this torture test. Good. Now you do the following experiment. Tkake the same group of deep cycle batteries and AGM batteries and put them on a charger at 15V. Wait just one week, and THEN test both batteries. You'l find the AGM battery is now a heavy piece of junk, but the flooded battery performs pretty much as it did before this torture test. After you did this test, stop and think what which of these two torture tests would be the more likely that a battery installed in a cruising boat will ever have to face. What is your conclusion now? Perhaps your conclusion should be that you should have invested in a good charge controller to make sure that you don't charge at 15V. If you're investing in AGMs, you should invest in the rest of the necessary components also. You should also learn that you shouldn't deep cycle any batteries. I try not to have mine drop below 12.3V and typically keep them at 12.5V and above. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
"Roger Long" wrote in
: I meant sucking electrolyte out to read the hydrometer. Sure it goes right back in but, if you could see my installation, you'd know why checking them doesn't have much appeal. -- Roger Long Whew! Thanks! I had visions of boaters sucking out the over supply of acid and replacing it with water....(c; I used to have to lay on my belly with my eyeballs 3" from the top of the cells on the Endeavour 35 sloop's starting battery Geoffrey used to have...under the quarterberth mattress in a little well. How awful. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 16, 12:58 am, Salomon Fringe wrote:
Well the author of the Victron article really did a good job and I have used his info extensively but I did realize that Victron sells gel and AGM but nothing else in terms of batteries so I assumed a slight nudge towards their product line in the numbers. ... Now wait. You're accusing the guy of lying to sell overpriced batteries that will fail if they ever get used and you're saying you've used his "info" extensively? Is this wise? Also his pricing info in the comparison was way off from what I found, e.g. full traction was just 50% of the price he stated. Pricing changes all the time. Still, I think he was testing 24v full traction batteries which might well explain the difference. ... in real life, a flooded cell will hugely outperform the AGM for cycling use because you can equalize a flooded cell to refresh weak cells, because you cannot monitor the temperature of each battery (let alone every cell) while charging which means guaranteed overcharging of some batteries/cells - destroying your typical AGM cell. Of course it is cheaper, too. Just for the record, you can equalize AGMs periodically without destroying them. The manufacturers even recommend it. I use a temperature compensated charging system with my AGMs. I don't understand what you're saying about not being able to monitor the temp. Your theory about cycling is interesting and testable but it goes against the published data. Given that I think the burden of proof lies with you. Go do some tests that suggest that the datasheets and experts are wrong and you'll garner a lot of attention. .... I would like to know from people who have REALLY deepcycled their AGM's 500 times (anybody counting?) and are still using them. If these exist I believe that you will find they paid as much for their AGMS as they would have for equivalent capacity traction - which would last at least twice as long. I presume what you're saying here is that my experience of REALLY sailing three times around the Pacific and REALLY living on my boat full time and REALLY charging my batteries using my engines is REALLY not valid because you REALLY don't want to hear it? I'm not claiming to be a representative sample but my experience suggests to me that some of your concerns about AGMs are overstated. I cruise extensively and keep in touch with many who do the same and I haven't heard any negative feedback about AGMs. Again, that's not a random sampling, but still, here we are in a widely read newsgroup discussing AGMs. Where are the voices saying "damn, I put one of those in and smoked it in a week"? Where are the 500 e-mailers who wrote into the Dutch magazine to complain about AGMs? I think Roger is right. The discussion has wandered off a bit. I'm not trying to get into a ****ing match. I don't sell batteries. When I bought my AGMs it wasn't a slam-dunk, easy decision. I can understand why lots of folks choose differently. I've been very happy with the way my AGMs have worked, but performance was not the only criteria in my decision. As I type this at my nav station, I have two 8D AGMs just a foot or so away from my toes. Safety and aesthetics have some value for me, too. AGMs are much more shock resistant than flooded or gel batteries and that makes them less prone to internal plate failures and shorts. Reliability is important, too. And so it goes. In different circumstances I can easily see myself doing things differently. There's lots of room for discussion of the pros and cons of various systems. My only serious beef with the discussion so far is with some of the arguments and assertions in your first link which are, to be kind, bogus. --Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:37:18 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: He took the battery out to replace it and lifted it up on deck. He then went up, leaned over to pick it up, BOOM! There are those fuddy duddies who recommend that you wear goggles when fooling with batteries. Casady |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... "Wayne.B" wrote What were the circumstances of your friends accident ? He took the battery out to replace it and lifted it up on deck. He then went up, leaned over to pick it up, BOOM! -- Roger Long My dad's best friend died by car battery explosion... dad watched it happen... you don't want to go there. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:11:06 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote: You should also learn that you shouldn't deep cycle any batteries. I try not to have mine drop below 12.3V and typically keep them at 12.5V and above. They should last just about forever with that kind of tender loving care. We routinely cycle our inverter bank of 4 golf cart batts down to 11.8 or 11.9, sometimes even lower. At 11.6 they are at about 50% and I try to never go lower than that. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
Wayne.B wrote in
: On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:11:06 -0500, Geoff Schultz wrote: You should also learn that you shouldn't deep cycle any batteries. I try not to have mine drop below 12.3V and typically keep them at 12.5V and above. They should last just about forever with that kind of tender loving care. We routinely cycle our inverter bank of 4 golf cart batts down to 11.8 or 11.9, sometimes even lower. At 11.6 they are at about 50% and I try to never go lower than that. 11.6V is about 20% and 11.8V is around 35%. Anything below 12.06V (without a load), which is 50% will kill them. See http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On 2008-06-16 10:59:59 -0400, Salomon Fringe said:
Why is draining batteries empty with a headlamp and then leaving them like that for a month more competent than charging an AGM at 15V? Well, for one thing, it's more POSSIBLE. My chargers won't deliver 14 for very long. My solar cell will, but it delivers about an amp at best, so isn't going to cook anything. Anyone with a system, of any sort, that can deliver 15V at significant amperage will also have a charge controller. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
wrote in :
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:24:23 -0500, Geoff Schultz wrote: Wayne.B wrote in m: On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:11:06 -0500, Geoff Schultz wrote: You should also learn that you shouldn't deep cycle any batteries. I try not to have mine drop below 12.3V and typically keep them at 12.5V and above. They should last just about forever with that kind of tender loving care. We routinely cycle our inverter bank of 4 golf cart batts down to 11.8 or 11.9, sometimes even lower. At 11.6 they are at about 50% and I try to never go lower than that. 11.6V is about 20% and 11.8V is around 35%. Anything below 12.06V (without a load), which is 50% will kill them. See http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org Nope. 50% is a more or less random number picked for convenience as much as anything. The deeper you cycle, the shorter the lifespan, but there is no magic that happens at 50%. A battery that never drops below 80% will last twice as long as one that is cycled to 50%. Yes, cycling the battery lower than 50% will make it's life shorter than 50%, but it won't "kill them". A battery that is never dropped below 90% charge will last a REALLY long time compared to one that is cycled to 50%. What you have to do is balance cost, weight, complexity, etc. If you are willing to carry more batteries, your batteries can live longer. AGM's can be cycled deeper than flooded batteries for a given lifespan. 50% cycling will "kill" a flooded battery before an AGM. It's true that going below 50% won't immediately kill them. But over time...I just go by the rule at anything over 50% is bad for them, especially if done on a regular basis. As has been discussed here, batteries cost too much not to be well taken care of. Considering how many systems rely on power, I consider batteries to be one of the most important components on the boat. As a result I baby mine. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 17, 12:02 am, Salomon Fringe wrote:
... Everybody I have spoken to has different (sometimes radically different) AGM/gel experiences than yours, so I figure there must be something special in your situation that makes these batteries really shine. I would like to know what it is. I wish you wouldn't lump AGMs and gels together. I've heard some horror stories about gels and am still waiting to hear any about AGMs. They are very different things. My house bank is 2 Lifeline 8DL's that live in a well vented compartment in the living area of the boat. For charging I have two 105 amp alternators and four 85 watt solar panels and a 25 amp, three stage plug in battery charger set to flooded battery mode. I use an Ample Power Energy Monitor/Controller. The solar is set to cut off at 13.5 volts. Normally the batteries simply live on the solar and every once in a while when the voltage gets low (3-5 days typically in port or daily on passage) I charge them up until their acceptance rate is ~1 amp when using the charger and ~13 amps when using the alternators. They also get charged when we motor for an extended period. That's it. ... I have a 24v setup and when I listened around and did the math two years ago, I settled for Hawker full traction at half the price mentioned in the Victron article. My second choice would have been semi traction based on price and power. ... Cool. How's it been working for you? What's your set-up and what kind of service have you put them to? --Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 17, 3:07*pm, Salomon Fringe wrote:
... I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary. Do notice that may not be cycling your batteries very heavily. Also, your energy budget seems quite low! How do you live aboard? Washer? Microwave? TV? Computer(s), refrigerator/freezer? I wish I could answer the cycling question better. My tactic is to get a charger of some sort on the batteries when the voltage starts dropping below ~11.9v when hit with a load. That load is typically ~8 amps when the fridge and freezer compressors pop on. I'm not sure how much DOD that represents. At sea with the autopilot, lights, computer, SSB, etc and the solar panels usually shaded, they do get a deeply cycled for sure. As for loads, well, I think my boat is pretty systems heavy but we stop short of the washer/dryer and microwave. We do have two computers a 12v refrigerator and a 12v freezer each w/their own compressor, an electric auto-pilot, SSB, VHF, RADAR, GPSs, 1500 watt inverter, instruments, a diesel heater (seldom used), an electric windlass and lights (and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting). We live on board full time and cruise extensively. Our boat is a 42' catamaran. Your set-up is in a whole other league, though. I'm kind of in awe. I can see with a bank that size that cost must be a much more serious factor. How do you like 24 volts? -- Tom. |
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