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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 16, 12:58 am, Salomon Fringe wrote:
Well the author of the Victron article really did a good job and I have used his info extensively but I did realize that Victron sells gel and AGM but nothing else in terms of batteries so I assumed a slight nudge towards their product line in the numbers. ... Now wait. You're accusing the guy of lying to sell overpriced batteries that will fail if they ever get used and you're saying you've used his "info" extensively? Is this wise? Also his pricing info in the comparison was way off from what I found, e.g. full traction was just 50% of the price he stated. Pricing changes all the time. Still, I think he was testing 24v full traction batteries which might well explain the difference. ... in real life, a flooded cell will hugely outperform the AGM for cycling use because you can equalize a flooded cell to refresh weak cells, because you cannot monitor the temperature of each battery (let alone every cell) while charging which means guaranteed overcharging of some batteries/cells - destroying your typical AGM cell. Of course it is cheaper, too. Just for the record, you can equalize AGMs periodically without destroying them. The manufacturers even recommend it. I use a temperature compensated charging system with my AGMs. I don't understand what you're saying about not being able to monitor the temp. Your theory about cycling is interesting and testable but it goes against the published data. Given that I think the burden of proof lies with you. Go do some tests that suggest that the datasheets and experts are wrong and you'll garner a lot of attention. .... I would like to know from people who have REALLY deepcycled their AGM's 500 times (anybody counting?) and are still using them. If these exist I believe that you will find they paid as much for their AGMS as they would have for equivalent capacity traction - which would last at least twice as long. I presume what you're saying here is that my experience of REALLY sailing three times around the Pacific and REALLY living on my boat full time and REALLY charging my batteries using my engines is REALLY not valid because you REALLY don't want to hear it? I'm not claiming to be a representative sample but my experience suggests to me that some of your concerns about AGMs are overstated. I cruise extensively and keep in touch with many who do the same and I haven't heard any negative feedback about AGMs. Again, that's not a random sampling, but still, here we are in a widely read newsgroup discussing AGMs. Where are the voices saying "damn, I put one of those in and smoked it in a week"? Where are the 500 e-mailers who wrote into the Dutch magazine to complain about AGMs? I think Roger is right. The discussion has wandered off a bit. I'm not trying to get into a ****ing match. I don't sell batteries. When I bought my AGMs it wasn't a slam-dunk, easy decision. I can understand why lots of folks choose differently. I've been very happy with the way my AGMs have worked, but performance was not the only criteria in my decision. As I type this at my nav station, I have two 8D AGMs just a foot or so away from my toes. Safety and aesthetics have some value for me, too. AGMs are much more shock resistant than flooded or gel batteries and that makes them less prone to internal plate failures and shorts. Reliability is important, too. And so it goes. In different circumstances I can easily see myself doing things differently. There's lots of room for discussion of the pros and cons of various systems. My only serious beef with the discussion so far is with some of the arguments and assertions in your first link which are, to be kind, bogus. --Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:37:18 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: He took the battery out to replace it and lifted it up on deck. He then went up, leaned over to pick it up, BOOM! There are those fuddy duddies who recommend that you wear goggles when fooling with batteries. Casady |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... "Wayne.B" wrote What were the circumstances of your friends accident ? He took the battery out to replace it and lifted it up on deck. He then went up, leaned over to pick it up, BOOM! -- Roger Long My dad's best friend died by car battery explosion... dad watched it happen... you don't want to go there. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:11:06 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote: You should also learn that you shouldn't deep cycle any batteries. I try not to have mine drop below 12.3V and typically keep them at 12.5V and above. They should last just about forever with that kind of tender loving care. We routinely cycle our inverter bank of 4 golf cart batts down to 11.8 or 11.9, sometimes even lower. At 11.6 they are at about 50% and I try to never go lower than that. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
Wayne.B wrote in
: On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:11:06 -0500, Geoff Schultz wrote: You should also learn that you shouldn't deep cycle any batteries. I try not to have mine drop below 12.3V and typically keep them at 12.5V and above. They should last just about forever with that kind of tender loving care. We routinely cycle our inverter bank of 4 golf cart batts down to 11.8 or 11.9, sometimes even lower. At 11.6 they are at about 50% and I try to never go lower than that. 11.6V is about 20% and 11.8V is around 35%. Anything below 12.06V (without a load), which is 50% will kill them. See http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising these days
On 2008-06-16 10:59:59 -0400, Salomon Fringe said:
Why is draining batteries empty with a headlamp and then leaving them like that for a month more competent than charging an AGM at 15V? Well, for one thing, it's more POSSIBLE. My chargers won't deliver 14 for very long. My solar cell will, but it delivers about an amp at best, so isn't going to cook anything. Anyone with a system, of any sort, that can deliver 15V at significant amperage will also have a charge controller. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 17, 12:02 am, Salomon Fringe wrote:
... Everybody I have spoken to has different (sometimes radically different) AGM/gel experiences than yours, so I figure there must be something special in your situation that makes these batteries really shine. I would like to know what it is. I wish you wouldn't lump AGMs and gels together. I've heard some horror stories about gels and am still waiting to hear any about AGMs. They are very different things. My house bank is 2 Lifeline 8DL's that live in a well vented compartment in the living area of the boat. For charging I have two 105 amp alternators and four 85 watt solar panels and a 25 amp, three stage plug in battery charger set to flooded battery mode. I use an Ample Power Energy Monitor/Controller. The solar is set to cut off at 13.5 volts. Normally the batteries simply live on the solar and every once in a while when the voltage gets low (3-5 days typically in port or daily on passage) I charge them up until their acceptance rate is ~1 amp when using the charger and ~13 amps when using the alternators. They also get charged when we motor for an extended period. That's it. ... I have a 24v setup and when I listened around and did the math two years ago, I settled for Hawker full traction at half the price mentioned in the Victron article. My second choice would have been semi traction based on price and power. ... Cool. How's it been working for you? What's your set-up and what kind of service have you put them to? --Tom. |
Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
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Batteries - what's best and cheapest for long term cruising thesedays
On Jun 17, 3:07*pm, Salomon Fringe wrote:
... I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary. Do notice that may not be cycling your batteries very heavily. Also, your energy budget seems quite low! How do you live aboard? Washer? Microwave? TV? Computer(s), refrigerator/freezer? I wish I could answer the cycling question better. My tactic is to get a charger of some sort on the batteries when the voltage starts dropping below ~11.9v when hit with a load. That load is typically ~8 amps when the fridge and freezer compressors pop on. I'm not sure how much DOD that represents. At sea with the autopilot, lights, computer, SSB, etc and the solar panels usually shaded, they do get a deeply cycled for sure. As for loads, well, I think my boat is pretty systems heavy but we stop short of the washer/dryer and microwave. We do have two computers a 12v refrigerator and a 12v freezer each w/their own compressor, an electric auto-pilot, SSB, VHF, RADAR, GPSs, 1500 watt inverter, instruments, a diesel heater (seldom used), an electric windlass and lights (and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting). We live on board full time and cruise extensively. Our boat is a 42' catamaran. Your set-up is in a whole other league, though. I'm kind of in awe. I can see with a bank that size that cost must be a much more serious factor. How do you like 24 volts? -- Tom. |
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